Thread: The Lions Are Coming

The rugby I watch live at a stadium always has the requisite number of Jocks to my liking on the pitch as in 15 although admittedly some have qualified for the shirt through dubious means as in the residency rule that I don't particularly agree with but it is what it is.

Why don't the All blacks get together with Australia and SA and form a single team then come tour the Northern hemisphere, then leave out all the All Black players and we will see your enthusiasm for a combined Australia/SA team playing against Wales or Ireland.

Originally Posted by buriramboy

Why don't the All blacks get together with Australia and SA and form a single team then come tour the Northern hemisphere, then leave out all the All Black players and we will see your enthusiasm for a combined Australia/SA team playing against Wales or Ireland.

Mostly, I suspect, because that would be dumb.

Moot point anyways, I've decided to no longer watch / support any rugby. It's too commercialized and there aren't enough BOP players in the All Blacks.

That'll learn 'em!

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by buriramboy

Why don't the All blacks get together with Australia and SA and form a single team then come tour the Northern hemisphere, then leave out all the All Black players and we will see your enthusiasm for a combined Australia/SA team playing against Wales or Ireland.

Mostly, I suspect, because that would be dumb.

Moot point anyways

It is not a moot point, it is exactly the same scenario as in a bunch of nations thrown together for a few matches then one left out and if your loyalties lie to the one left out where would your enthusiasm be in supporting a team you have no connection with. If Wales are playing Ireland or NZ v SA I generally don't give a toss who wins just like to watch a good game as have no allegiance to any of the teams although I maybe inclined towards supporting the underdog. NZ v the Welsh/Irish and English Lions is the same but in this instance I think Gatland is a cvnt (i'm sure he won't lose any sleep over that though) so I will be hoping NZ win for the sole purpose Gatland is not in contention to manage any future Lions tours and a future manager may return to the ethos of the Lions and in turn I may actually give a toss when they tour SA in 4 years time.

Please tell me that I don't have to point out to you how a hypothetical SH team with no All Blacks in it is not the same scenario as an actual NH team with Jocks in it...

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Please tell me that I don't have to point out to you how a hypothetical SH team with no All Blacks in it is not the same scenario as an actual NH team with Jocks in it...

OK to increase your enthusiasm i'll let an All Black come on for the last 5 minutes in the last test of a 3 test series as was the case in 2013 Lions tour of Australia regarding Scottish participation. So you'd be all excited, cheering from the rafters as an Aus/SA team took on Wales then Ireland then the final match against Scotland brought on an All Black for the final 5 minutes. Nah can't see it either, you'd be thinking what is the point of having a combined team if one nation is going to be basically excluded.

This Lions tour is obviously a lot more important and significant to Kiwis than anyone else. Me i'll be more interested in how Scotland get on against Italy, Australia and Fiji in their summer tour.

^^Your hypothetical was already silly and has just gotten even more... silly.

And there's another difference: there aren't many who would even attempt to argue that a combined SH team wouldn't have many/any All Blacks in it; seen plenty of English, Irish and Welsh making the case for the low Scottish representation though.

Even Gregor Townsend, a Scot, made the case that the number selected was justified in the NZ Herald.

Enjoy your Scotland tour though. Maybe they'll beat Fiji or go one more to squaring the ledger against Italy. And what with Visser, Hardie, Nel, Toolis, Strauss etc. at least you're guaranteed to meet your desired arbitrary number of Jocks in the team.

Gray brothers at lock has proven a pretty decent pairing, Johnny Grays stats both in the 6N and at club level are nothing short of spectacular. Hamish Watson was the stand out 7 in the 6N, Dunbar and Jones in the centres, Russel at 10, plenty of Jocks who should be there. Johnny Gray should have been a nailed on starter. 12 or however many players it is from a Welsh team who finished 5th in the 6N including getting totally by the Scottish back row (none of whom make the tour yet 4 welsh back row forwards do), many of whom are only there through past glories under Gatland and don't deserve their place on form using any yardstick.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Enjoy your Scotland tour though. Maybe they'll beat Fiji or go one more to squaring the ledger against Italy. And what with Visser, Hardie, Nel, Toolis, Strauss etc. at least you're guaranteed to meet your desired arbitrary number of Jocks in the team.

I've already stated numerous times I don't agree with the residency rule and at least they are now extending it by a few years, but if Scotland were to choose from a fully fit squad probably only Nel would be a definite starter who has qualified through residency, Hardie qualifies through a parent or grandparent I forget which but I have no objection to people qualifying that way as at least they have a genuine connection to the country they have chosen to play for.

Originally Posted by buriramboy

Gray brothers at lock has proven a pretty decent pairing, Johnny Grays stats both in the 6N and at club level are nothing short of spectacular. Hamish Watson was the stand out 7 in the 6N, Dunbar and Jones in the centres, Russel at 10, plenty of Jocks who should be there. Johnny Gray should have been a nailed on starter. 12 or however many players it is from a Welsh team who finished 5th in the 6N including getting totally by the Scottish back row (none of whom make the tour yet 4 welsh back row forwards do), many of whom are only there through past glories under Gatland and don't deserve their place on form using any yardstick.

All subjective and I thought I had explained what was apparent in Gatlands reasoning.
Whether his reasoning is right or wrong is again, subjective.
No point going on about it now, and it's unlikely Gatland will lead the Lions again win or lose.
At kick off, just try to enjoy the spectacle of top end rugby.

Originally Posted by buriramboy

the Lions is just a commercial exercise these days

As evidenced by the choice to play the Super Rugby teams in bigger stadiums v the mid-week games against provincial sides at their local rugby grounds. I feel we've lost something there.

Originally Posted by chassamui

Gatland has favored Welsh players because he is comfortable that they can follow his style. He has also gone for bruisers from Ireland, England because they fit his game plan.

He should have just picked 15 Oirsih lads.

As Lions tours are funded almost entirely by sponsorship, there are bound to be commercial influences at play. Some have complained about off field commitments for the players.
You have to understand how big this is for the host country, where the game is more important than anything else in life. Understand also that whoever gets a fixture, those players, individually and collectively, will probably never get such a chance again.
A year ago, I looked at the cost of going to NZ for the Lions tour. The cost of travel and accommodation was eye watering and match ticket prices made me shudder. Lions supporters are all well heeled, or they are bank robbers, so it's not just the locals who are being pushed aside in the chase for funding.
Fortunately, due to contemporary media, I can watch in a Brit pub with Welsh, Irish and a token Scot, drinking cider or Guinness in the Land of Smirks.

Originally Posted by Plan B

As evidenced by the choice to play the Super Rugby teams in bigger stadiums v the mid-week games against provincial sides at their local rugby grounds

I don't think the stadia have changed though have they?

I remember going to the opening game vs. BOP in 2005 at Rotorua International Stadium, this time around was the Baa Baa's at Toll Stadium, but all the rest were at the main stadiums I think (e.g. Wellington at the Cake tin).

I take your point about the loss of provincial teams though

Also - other than SBW being in that I saw in a headline - I can't seem to find the Blues team that has been named??

I'm guessing they'll field as close to full-strength as they can (injuries permitting) because their Super season is done and they've got nothing to lose.

The real marker will be what the Crusaders do. They're topping the Super Rugby table so it will be interesting to see if they're willing to risk their front-line players against the Lions. My guess is that whatever they do the Highlanders, Chiefs and Hurricanes will follow suit.

Some great banter on BBC Rugby Podcasts with Dawson, Mehrtens and Jamie Roberts.
Anything remotely similar and unbiased in Kiwiland?

Of course not. Silly question.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

he real marker will be what the Crusaders do. They're topping the Super Rugby table so it will be interesting to see if they're willing to risk their front-line players against the Lions. My guess is that whatever they do the Highlanders, Chiefs and Hurricanes will follow suit.

Competition for places will be force. Everybody wants a Lions scalp.
Even a guy who is 7th or 8th choice at national level will be playing out of his skin. It's a measure of how tough the Lions job will be. Wouldn't want it any other way.

Originally Posted by chassamui

Anything remotely similar and unbiased in Kiwiland?

Of course not. Silly question

Listen to/read Justin Marshall.

He has become (surprisingly enough to me) not only a very astute commentator but about as unbiased as they come.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Listen to/read Justin Marshall.

He has become (surprisingly enough to me) not only a very astute commentator but about as unbiased as they come.

Not a proper Kiwi then.

Thanks for the tip.

Originally Posted by chassamui

Not a proper Kiwi then.

Oh he's 101% a Kiwi alright.

Astute and unbiased certainly, but five minutes of hearing his voice/accent will have you wanting to listen to finger-nails on a chalkboard instead.

Finally found it! Blues side to face the Lions:

Blues: Michael Collins, Matt Duffie, Rieko Ioane, George Moala, Sonny Bill Williams/ TJ Faiane, Stephen Perofeta, Augustine Pulu, Steve Luatua, Blake Gibson, Akira Ioane, Scott Scrafton, Gerard Cowley-Tuioti, Charlie Faumuina, James Parsons, Ofa Tu'ungafasi.

Reserves: Hame Faiva, Alex Hodgman, Sione Mafileo, Patrick Tuipulotu, Kara Pryor, Sam Nock, Ihaia West, TJ Faiane/Melani Nana



Pretty much full-strength side. SBW bracketed but apparently odds on to start.

Interesting that Tuipulotu is starting on the bench though. I dunno if you can read much into it but it might be a statement against his All Black chances.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Astute and unbiased certainly, but five minutes of hearing his voice/accent will have you wanting to listen to finger-nails on a chalkboard instead.

I play pool for a Kiwi owned sports bar so I'm well used to translating for visitors.

No Jocks in the starting 15 for the Welsh, English and Irish Lions game tomorrow I see. Come on the blues, show that Gatland is clueless and should have brought some Jocks.

I think if there is any team that the Lions may beat this tour is the Blues.

After watching them play they have a few individual players who are world beaters but are not team players.

SBW is one of them and to be fair I think he is almost past playing at this level.

Let tomorrow tell the story.

Crickey, this dude is not having a good last 12 months or so. Sent home from tour for a false-positive drugs test, injury, and now this:

Blues lock Patrick Tuipulotu dropped from Lions clash after late to training - NZ Herald

Hope he sorts his shit out he's a very promising player.