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  1. #26
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    Great informatiom. Keep looking for more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genghis61
    This map of Indochina gives a clear picture of the size of Siam in 1886
    Scottish Engineers eh, salt of the earth.

  3. #28
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    Nice thread Genghis, like reading about SEA at this time.

  4. #29
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    Postcards

    ^-^^^^ - thanks; I have saved lots of 'trivia' too

    some postcards from the time


    “Trade Card” illustrating the French Campaign against Siam in 1893 showing French forces fighting at the mouth of the Menam River. The card is entitled: “Campagne de SIAM (1893) / Les canonnieres Francaise forcent l’entrée du Meinam” The back of the card has a detailed account of the Expedition (in French)




    1907. Picture post card of ‘Rice Fields Siam’ addressed to Bac-Lieu Cochinchine bearing 5a carmine (Yvert 55) tied by Bangkok date stamp with Saigon transit.


    More old Thai postcards at this link

  5. #30
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    you started it!

    Paknam Incident 1893

    In 1889 and 1892 Monsieur Auguste Pavie was appointed consul and then minister to Bangkok respectively. He used military pressure in an effort to force the Thais to agree that territories from Vietnam to the Mekong were under French control, but they refused. On March 14, 1893, the Lutin, a French gunboat, arrived and moored in the Chao Phraya in front of the French legation. The reason given for its presence was to protect the interest of French nationals in Thailand and it was said that the visit would exceed seven days. However, it refused to leave.

    A week passed. Another ship, the Comete, came to bring food supplies to the crew of the Lutin and prepared for naval action.

    On April 10, 1893, King Chulalongkorn went to inspect Chulachomklao fort.


    King Rama V visiting the fort in 1893

    Towards the end of April 1893, the king ordered the navy to make preparations for defense against the encroachment of Thai sovereignty. Phraya Chonlayut Yothin, vice commander-in-chief of the naval forces, was made director of the defence of Paknam. He devised a plan of action to halt the passage of French warships at the mouth of the Chao Phraya River as follows:

    1. Old guns at Chulachomklao and Phisua Samut forts were to be replaced by modern 6 inch Wigger Armstrong guns. Telephone lines were ordered to be laid between the forts for communications. Preparations were made to halt the entry of the French warships.

    2. Nine war vessels were put on the alert to the North of Chulachomklao Fort. Most of them were either antiquated or just river steamers. Only two were up-to-date: The Makut Rachakuman and the Muratha Wasitsawat.

    3. Barriers were to be placed across the mouth of the Chao Phraya, such as sinking boats loaded with stone to narrow the channel, and creating minefields.

    Later on, other powers sent in ships to protect their interests, such as the Sumbawa of the Netherlands and the Wolf of Germany. Towards the end of June 1893, the following arrangements were made to defend the capital, including areas outside the city wall: On duty was a regular army 2,600 strong, with a reinforcement force of 1,000 men, 34 howitzers, and 9 miscellaneous big guns. Reinforcements and modern weapons were sent to strategic places such as Rayong, Laem Singh (Chanthaburi), Laem Ngop (Trat) and Ko Kong (Trat).

    On July 1, 1893, England send the Pallas from Singapore. The ship moored at the bar to protect British nationals and their interests, without any sign that it would give assistance to the Thais.

    On July 4, 1893, King Chulalongkorn made a private visit. He observed the howitzer firing practice.

    On July 10, 1893, the French asked that the sloop Inconstant, and the gunboat Comete be allowed to cross the bar at the mouth of the river. Though the Thais refused entry, the French did not listen.

  6. #31
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    an engagement

    The Engagement at Paknam on July 13, 1893


    Shooting at the French Ships

    The Makut Ratchakuman and the Narubent Butri were getting ready to receive the Archduke of Austria. On hearing that he had not yet arrived, and that the latest news was that two French gunboats had arrived at the bar, Phraya Chonlayut Yothin ordered a full alert. Ships were positioned along the Paknam defence line: the Makut Ratchakuman, the Narubent Butri and the Thun Kramon on the west of the channel, the Muratha Wisitsawat and the Han Hak on the east. One more cargo boat was sunk at the defence line. More mines were laid, a total of only 16.

    The order was that should a French ship enter the defence line, Chulalongkorn Fort would fire three warning shots. If it did not stop, a fourth shot would be fired and the boats could start firing.

    When the French fleet consisting of the J.B. Say, a pilot boat, the Inconstant, and the Comete, arrived at the Paknam bar. Mr. Jackson, a Thai pilot of Britsh nationality, boarded the J.B. Say. Captain Will, a Thai port inspector of German nationality who took the Akkarat Woradet to Paknam, bordered the Inconstant to tell Commander Borey not to proceed up the river.

    Captain Edward received orders from the commander of the Pallas, a British ship moored in the Paknam area, to board the Inconstant with th message that the French minister ordered French boats to drop anchor at thebar. The French commander refused to obey. All of the officers left except Jackson, who had to pilot the ship.

    Captain Will raised the signal flag for Chulachomklao Fort to be on full alert.

    At 6.15 p.m. it stopped raining. From the fort, French ships could be seen passing the lighthouse. Everyone was ordered to take battle stations.


    At 6.30 p.m. the French ships reached the Black Buoy. Chulachomklao Fort fired two warning shots. The Thais did not want to be regarded as the party that started the war.

    When the warning shots had no effect, a third shot was fired with live ammunition to fall in front of the ship as a warning. Another shot was fired to fall at the front of the ship too.

    The French ships moved on, flying the French flag, an indication that they took battle stations. Then they started firing at Chulachomklao Fort. The fort began training guns on the target. The French ships did not exchange fire as they were quite a distance away. Later, the J.B. Say was hit, and the Inconstant was, too, with its davits broken. There were casualties.

    At 6.43 p.m. the French started firing back.

    At 6.50 p.m. the French ships approached the defence line. The Makhut Ratchakuman and the Muratha Wasitsawat fired at the French ships. A boat launched an explosive mine but it missed the target.

    The J.B. Say was hit by cannon balls and ran aground at Laem Lamphu Rai.

    The Inconstant and the Comete moved on and dropped anchor in front of the French Legation in Bangkok.

    The Aftermath of the Paknam Crisis

    On July 16, 1893, twelve French warships were sent to blockade the Gulf of Thailand.

    On July 29, 1893, the French occupied Chantaburi to force the Thais to sign a peace treaty requiring that Thailand do the following: Cede Sipsong Chu Thai and territory on the left bank of the Mekong. They also had to pay an indemnity.

    In 1903 the French pulled their troops out of Chantaburi and went on to occupy Trat.

    During this time, Western nations that had dealings with Thailand such as England, Germany, and the Netherlands, were all anxious about their interests. They sent warships to keep a close watch on the situation. The French therefore did not dare to be rough.

    In 1906 the French pulled all their troops out of Thai territory.

  7. #32
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    The Importance of the 1893 Engagement

    The exchange of gunfire between the forts and Thai war boats and French gunboats on July 13, 1893 was very brief and caused little damage in terms of life and property. However, it had several immediate outcomes with long lasting effects as follows:

    The start of negotiations between Thailand and France.

    The French stopped using force in the long disputes about territories on the left bank of the Mekong.

    Territorial loss of about one third of the kingdom to France on three occasions.


    Display at Phra Chulachomklao Fort

  8. #33
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    Phra Chulachomklao Fort


    In order to protect his kingdom, King Rama V ordered the construction of Phra Chulachomklao Fort at the entrance to the Chao Phraya estuary. He also ordered the modernization of other forts on both sides of the river in Samut Prakan so that the approach to Bangkok could be protected.

    The work on the fort started in 1884 and took ten years to complete. This was to be not only the most modern fort in Thailand, but also comparable to forts in the West.

    King Rama V ordered at great expense the latest guns from W G Armstrong & Co in England. These were ten 6 inch Armstrong Guns which weighed five tons each. They were the first rear-loaded guns in the Thai Navy and they had an interesting characteristic. They were called the “disappearing” guns because they only came out of the pit to fire and then the recoil forced the gun back where it came from. This protected the guns from enemy fire. That was the theory. All of the aiming had to be done while the gun was in the pit.

    Each shell weighed 45 kilos. The gun was then hauled up be a hydraulic mechanism and the shot fired. The range was about 8 kilometres.


    Seven of these guns were installed at the Phra Chulachomklao Fort. The remaining three were set up at Phi Sua Samut Fort which is an island in the middle of the river near the present day City Hall. About three months after their completion they saw action for the first and only time. On 13th July 1893, two French gunboats entered the estuary with the intention to blockade Bangkok.

    Shots were fired and a small boat that was acting as a pilot for the French ships was badly damaged and ran aground. Despite heroic action by the soldiers at the fort and the sailors aboard ships on the river, the two French gunboats managed to slip by. By the time it reached the inner fort it was too dark for anyone to continue the battle. The gunboats were then able to go all the way up the river to Bangkok.


    Today Phra Chulachomklao Fort is open to the general public. The guns are still in good working order and they were last fired during the 100th anniversary. Phi Sua Samut Fort is not open to the public though they are presently renovating the fort and guns. The plan is to open the island to the public.

    *************

    .

    Phi Sua Samut Fort is one of the few battlements left in Samut Prakan that is still in a good condition. Although you won't see it promoted in any tourist guidebook, it is possible to visit the island. Catch a ferry boat that goes from Phra Samut Chedi to Paknam Market. The boat doesn't normally stop at the island but it is possible to ask the captain to drop you off. Once you have finished, you need to wave down the next boat as it passes.

    .


  9. #34
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    back in the mailroom

    yours for just US$1570


    1895. French OCCUPATION of CHANTABOON (Siam). Envelope addressed to Granville/Manche/France violet cachet "Marine/service" with anchor in the middle of the Naval Forces (in the river), also "Saigon/Conchinchine/Corps Expe" c.d.s.'s alongside.

    or for US$2500

    1896 (3 Jan). Chantaboom. French Expeditionary Force. Extraordinary rare Siam 4ATT red on cream stationery card used by the French troops during the occupation time period. Proper marks and transits. Outstanding rarity.

    US$1570

    1907. French Occupation of Chantaboon (Siam). Envelope military franchise addressed to Paris. Blue-green strike of " Le Commandant/Troupes de Occupation de Chantabonn", mns. "Le lieutenant of the detachement/Guillard" and "Saigon/Cochinchina/corp.

  10. #35
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    another map

    French Indochina and Siam 1898


  11. #36
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    news item from 1902

    I once worked for the Taranaki Herald newspaper (New Zealand), but some time after 1902.

    France and Siam
    Taranaki Herald, Rōrahi L, Putanga 12141, 9 Hakihea 1902, Page 5


  12. #37
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    conflicting dates here, I am unsure on this article from Chiang Mai Chronicle.

    A Chronicle of Siam's 14 Boundary Losses

    Siam's independence, during the past two hundred years, came under serious threat from foreign powers, and only the astute rule of King Chulalongkorn in the late 19th century saved the country from being swallowed by Britain and France, like much of the rest of Southeast Asia. Siam did, however, suffer some fourteen boundary losses; eight of them to Britain and France, and the rest to neighboring countries. The following lands were lost to foreign states:

    11th Aug. 1786: Britain took control of Penang, or Koh Maak, a 375 sq kms. island ceded to the British East India Company by the Sultan of Keddah, in return for protection against the armies of neighboring Siam and Burma.

    16th Jan. 1793: Mergui, Tavoy and the Tennasserim Strip of some 55,000 sq kms. was taken by the Burmese.

    24th May 1810: the 3,000 sq kms. city of Ha Tien was ceded to Vietnam.
    With the death, in 1815, of the ruler of Northern Thailand, Prince Gawila, the 100,000 sq kms. autonomous region of Chiang Toong , broke away from Siam to become part of the eastern Shan state of Burma.

    20th Jun. 1826: Siam was forced to sign the Anglo-Siam agreement, thereby losing the 70,000 sq kms. states of Perak and Selangor to Britain.

    1st May 1850: Siam lost Chiang Roog (Jinhong) City to China. The great neighboring power also laid claim to the entire 60,000 sq kms. region of Sibsong Panna, north of the Lanna kingdom, and brought it under the wing of the southern province of Yunnan.

    15th Jul. 1867: Siam lost all 124,000 sq kms. of eastern Cambodia, which became a French protectorate, annexed to French Indo-China, in a treaty signed between France and Siam.

    Laos and north Vietnam, by signing the Luang Prabang agreement with France. French troops had invaded the region , some 50 kms. to the east of present-day Vientiane, the previous year, and refused to leave.

    27th Oct. 1892: Siam is forced to agree to an Anglo-Siamese Boundary Commission, thereby losing to British-Burma 13 towns and villages on the eastern bank of the Salween River; and area of some 30,000 sq kms.

    3rd Oct. 1893: France takes possession of 143,8s00 sq kms. of eastern Laos, along the eastern bank of the Mekong River. French logic at the time deemed that since Laos belonged to Vietnam, which in turn was part of the French Indo- China empire, then Laos must be under French control.

    12th Feb. 1903: French troops seized the city of Chandhaburi in eastern Siam, and offer it in exchange for more territory in Laos. Faced with little choice, Siam agrees to give to France the land on the western bank of the Mekong River; the 62,500 sq kms. embracing the region of Luang Prabang and Cham Pasak became part of French Indo-China.

    27th Mar. 1906: French troops are used in a now familiar ploy to wrest land from Siam with the invasion of the city of Trad. Siam was then forced to relinquish her eastern state, covering Siem Reap, Battembang and Sri Sobhon; a loss of some 51,000 sq kms. of land. The city of Trad was eventually given back by the French.
    10th Mar. 1908: The transfer of the peninsula states of Kelantan, Trengganu, Kedah and Perlis from Siam to British Malaya resulted in Siam losing 80,000 square miles of land.

    15th Jun. 1962: Thailand lost 2 square miles of Khao Phra Wihaan temple to Cambodia. A bitter dispute arose when Cambodians came out from nowhere claiming the temple. The World Court relied on an inaccurate map drawn up by French colonial powers when Cambodia was part of their French Indo-China empire. The decision by the World Court to award this sacred site to Cambodia so angered the then Prime Minister, Field Marshal Sarit Thanarat,as well as the citizens of Thailand that he stated we should have refused to relinquish Khao Phra Wihaan. The temple is a world's heritage which belongs to everyone. Due to geography and history, Siam or Thailand must have a perfect right to look after this particular temple.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by genghis61 View Post
    ^-^^^^ - thanks; I have saved lots of 'trivia' too

    some postcards from the time


    ...

    1907. Picture post card of ‘Rice Fields Siam’ addressed to Bac-Lieu Cochinchine bearing 5a carmine (Yvert 55) tied by Bangkok date stamp with Saigon transit.


    More old Thai postcards at this link
    More trivia, Bac Lieu is where a lot of hostesses in the bars of Phnom Penh come from.

    Maybe the guy was writingto his girlfriend?

  14. #39
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    a book . . .

    French Wolf and the Siamese Lamb: French Threat to Siamese Independence, 1858-1901 (Studies in Southeast Asian history)


    Paperback: 434 pages
    Publisher: White Lotus Co Ltd (1 Jan 1995)

    Synopsis
    Based on a wide range of newly available French records, this is an explanation of how narrowly Siam survived the French menace to her independence during the period of the European scramble for her colonies. For half a century after arriving in Cochinchina in 1858, the French encroached on Siamese territory and interests in a variety of ways.

    By the 1860s French colonialists, so influential in promoting French annexations in Africa and the Pacific, wanted to acquire the whole of Siam in order to create a "Greater Indochina" in imitation of British India. The integrity, the stability and the very existence of the Siamese state were at stake.

    The book examines the changing aims and methods of French expansion, and explains how French ambitions came to be frustrated by British diplomatic action. However, the author also argues that the Siamese played an indespensable role in shaping the conditions which made British intervention effective.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by genghis61
    and wilder accusation she may have ancestry other than her claimed 'pure Thai' - that one hurt!
    How would you like it if someone suggested your Parents/grand parents may have been violated by a Frenchie? Disgusted I should imagine.
    It may well be this early injection of Caucasian that lends the region's women their celebrated beauty. Wee Wee

  16. #41
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    Did you check out "Khuk Khi Kai", just before Laem Sing beach in Chanthaburi? .. the little prison built by the French? It had openings in the ceiling where they kept chickens so they could shit all over the Thai prisoners below. Charming the French are!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KAPPA View Post
    It may well be this early injection of Caucasian that lends the region's women their celebrated beauty. Wee Wee
    I'm not too sure about that .. but there have been several large waves of Vietnamese moving to this neck of the woods over the past couple of hundred of years. Lot of Catholic ones too. Hence the big Cathedral here.

  18. #43
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    Tuek Daeng - Laem Sing

    .

    This red building in Laem Sing is called Tuek Daeng, built by the French.

    It was their headquarters during France's occupation of Chanthaburi from 1893-1903. The single storey structure measuring 32x7 metres comprises five rooms.

    It was until (?) recently an exhibition area showcasing, among other artefacts, an old French cannon, pictures and literature chronicling landmark events and history of Chanthaburi.

    (Pic from May 2010, will go back to see if any info on opening)
    Last edited by genghis61; 29-03-2011 at 09:05 AM.

  19. #44
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    Khuk Khi Kai (chicken dung cell) - Laem Sing

    .

    Built by the French in 1893, Khuk Khi Kai (chicken dung cell) used to be a prison.

    Measuring 10m height and 4m width, entry was via a single door and each of its walls was marked by four small windows at the base and as many near the ceiling. Inmates were mostly Thai resisting French occupation of Chanthaburi.

    Inside, the French raised chickens on an area above the prisoners, when the birds excreted their droppings fell on inmates. Today the building looks like a local version of the Leaning Tower of Pisa, slowly sinking and leaning to one side.

    .

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by keekwai View Post
    I'm not too sure about that .. but there have been several large waves of Vietnamese moving to this neck of the woods over the past couple of hundred of years. Lot of Catholic ones too. Hence the big Cathedral here.
    right you are, numerous Christian/Catholic churches around here and extending north into south Sa Kaeo where we lived previously, Catholic church and school near the small town we were in. The cathedral is the 5th church on that site since the first one built 1711. I saw a stat stating that that the highest percentage of Christians in Thailand (per province) live C'buri/Trat. We were holidaying in Chao Lao over Xmas and went through Tha Mai Xmas eve, streets closed for a Christmas Parade, kids from the Catholic Church in their national costumes of Vietnamese, Chinese, Thai, Cambodian.

    Some pics on this thread

    Wiki: A significant minority of Chanthaburi citizens are native Vietnamese, who came there in three waves - first in the 19th century during an anti-Catholic persecution in Cochin China, a second wave came in the 1920s to 1940s fleeing from French Indochina, and a third one after the communist victory in Vietnam in 1975. Thus the town of Chanthaburi is the seat of a Bishop of Chanthaburi since 1944.
    Last edited by genghis61; 29-03-2011 at 09:36 AM.

  21. #46
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    I'm french and I have not understood everything but I respect the research work. bravo!
    google is my friend for translate... sorry.

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    A superb thread. Thank you very much.

    It was of course this land exchange by which French Indo-China gained Preah Vihear province, thus creating the uncertainty concerning the border with Siam and the current dispute between Thailand and Cambodia over the temple of Khao Phra Viharn/Preah Vihear.

    Andrew

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    I find it fascinating to think that, 150 years ago, Laos was all part of Thailand (Siam). My wife comes from Khon Kaen in Northeast Thailand, and, like all her friends and family, speaks Lao. I understand it is not much different from Thai. I ask them if they would not like to become a part of Laos, to which they all say NO. They feel they are Thai, and would much prefer to see the rest of Laos become part of a Greater Thailand.

    That would be an interesting reversal of history, wouldn't it?

  24. #49
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    Thailand used to cover a much greater area than it does now. Parts of Mynmar, Cambodia, Laos, Southern China, Malaysia etc. Sure .. they have never been colonised .. but they have lost huge chunks of the place over the years.

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    Like Cambodia?

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