You have?Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgary
Printable View
You have?Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgary
From Twitter:
bangkokpundit bangkokpundit
1 The Nation focuses on Agr. Minister's decision to delay release of water in Sep goo.gl/0c3Rn although it doesn't provide the
2. details of what he said http://goo.gl/n3FMD 4 which you can see when you look at release of water in Sep 2011 that there was less water
3. discharged from Bhumipol Dam for around 3-4 days just after Sept 5 http://goo.gl/KbddC (u have to click large image 2 notice difference)
4. BUT then 30 times more water was discharged from Bhuimpol Dam in Sep 2011 compared with Sep 2010 so u can see that discharge in Sep 2011
5. was more than normal http://goo.gl/cWRom although slightly more water should have been discharged in Sep 2011, but it was slow discharge
6. earlier in the year which excerbated the problem leading to large discharges in Oct. Problem for govt is that was the same Agr. Minister
7. who presided over the whole problem since March - current Min was also Agr Min under Abhisit - and Min's record is very poor.
8. Will Yingluck treat the Agr. Minister as untouchable so as not upset someone from Suphan? One hopes not as he should be 1st to go
22 minutes ago
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCM
I made some inquiries about this.
I was told that this Ag. Min. is an Amart guy preferred by .......................
Also, he was one of the impositions when Ms. Y. was forming her Cabinet.
In light of that, he is unlikely to be the first to go.
We will never know which attempted impositions were caved to and which ones were not.
I haven't read any more demonization of the Foreign Minister lately.
That one was their initial whipping boy.
But this government has made some serious errors. Responsibility needs to be taken. Don't you agree?Quote:
Originally Posted by CalgaryBurying discussion about the cause and effect of 2006 coup in whatever silver lining one can think of, simply muddies realities described in a BB quote from another thread below:Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaihomeYou have amazingly enough (well maybe not ) managed to turn this completely around so that you are now saying the 2006 coup was about protecting the provincial godfathers against a movement (presumably headed by Thaksin) that was independent of them.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettyboo
You really need to refresh yourself on who was actually part of the TRT. Here might be a good starting point. Thai Rak Thai Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
TH
The media is largely polticised and is a tool for certain individuals to spread propaganda on a massive basis; much of it owned by the army and patriarcs who commit coups whenever they feel like it; using these media outlets to build fears which are then used to justify coups...Today, history is attempting to repeat itself as described in this quote.
Do you see the stark similarities with this media using attacks disguised as journalistic criticism, and trying to foist this crisis victimization as a victimization resulting from Ms. Y and her Govt. instead?
But things are different today from 2006, when no Red Shirt Democracy Movement existed.
Are they different enough?
We will see.
REFLECTION OF REALITY: Deluge of Thai baggage
By Tanyakamon Pramuaratana
tanyakamon[at]yahoo.com
The government’s response to the floods is a window into Thailand’s politics
Thailand’s flood crisis and the preceding tropical storm Nock-Ten started to vent their fury shortly before Yingluck Shinawatra took office as prime minister on Aug 3 — foreshadowing greater woes in the two months to come. Yingluck and the Puea Thai party’s success are linked to the vast popularity and political and business machinery of her brother Thaksin Shinawatra.
Thaksin has political, business and personal stakes in the survival of the party, as Thammasat University’s political scientist Dr Somjai Phagaphasvivat points out.
“His power is virtual, not legal, but of course he knows how to use it with discretion,” he added.
Yingluck’s strength is attributed first and foremost to the fact that she is Thaksin’s sister —and the most trusted one, at that.
Secondly, she appears likeable, a quality that has political resonance in Thailand. It appears her main role in public is to speak from memorised scripts, and that is what she has done superbly.
But as time passed, with the economic, social and political situation sinking, she was expected to show more policy and management capability.
Since the election, certain changes have been perceivable. While the floods were gaining momentum, Yingluck used the first two months to focus on selecting men favourable to Thaksin for key positions.
On the political front, the Puea Thai-led government has consolidated power, putting its men in the bureaucracy — the civil service, police and part of the military.
On the social and economic levels, Thailand appears headed for more trouble, buttressed by a weaker economic outlook and the flood crisis.
Various factions have reacted to these changes differently. The first group, made up of staunch Puea Thai loyalists (particularly the Red Shirts), remains unperturbed, no matter what happens.
The second group, those who voted “no” to Puea Thai, have adopted an “I told you so” attitude.
The third group could be branded as neutral, comprising entrepreneurs, big businesses not closely associated with Puea Thai and the urban, educated populace. For this group, a certain sense of scepticism as to the government’s management capability is heightening.
The Thai social and political cultural paradigm is that of patrons and clients, according to Somjai. Personal relationships and loyalty outweigh all other rational considerations.
An Abac Poll released in July, for example, found that almost 65 per cent of respondents said a corrupt government was acceptable as long as it could make the country prosperous and they stood to benefit (Bangkok Post, July 20).
That is why reconciliation for all parties is still, and will be, elusive, as Thai politics remains a zero sum game.
Yingluck’s handling of the flood crisis, on the positive side, has shown her concern, hard work and good intentions. But on the negative side it has exposed her weakness in macro-management, not to mention her leadership.
Managing a natural disaster is a quick measurement of leadership and administrative skills.
As the flood crisis spread to more than 59 provinces, she did not declare a state of emergency.
Instead she resorted to the 2007 Disaster and Mitigation Act so that the Flood Relief Operation Command, which she set up, could supervise flood control.
If she had declared a state of emergency in the early stages of the deluge, the flood could have been more systematically controlled and the flow weakened. But that would have put the military in a position where there could be the risk of a coup like the one that one toppled Thaksin. After inundating four major industrial areas in Ayutthaya, the floods have wreaked havoc in about 30 of Bangkok’s 50 district.
The waters have now reached Bang Chan and Lad Krabang districts, the site of industrial estates in eastern Bangkok — threatening loss of investment and unemployment. Yingluck has spearheaded plans for a New Thailand to rebuild the country and its image, even though flooding continues to southern Thailand.
Despite the Irrigation Department’s announcement this week that almost half of the flooding in Bangkok has been channelled into the sea, water from western Bangkok is heading towards Rama II Road, which connects to southern Thailand.
Thailand’s political culture is enshrined in the so-called “patron-client” mentality, as Somjai puts it. That is a perpetual hindrance to the development of a real and full-fledged liberal democracy where majority-rule is not supplanted by “dictatorship by majority” and where there is true respect for rule of law and individual rights and freedoms.
Thailand, with its political and social baggage, is still a decade or more away from achieving that.
Post cancelled by self
From Ji Ungpakorn and the Turn Left Thailand Group My Thai is a very long way from perfect but I think it's a fair translation, though I wrote it on the fly so sorry about the weird English.
----
We can now see clearly that the amart aren’t interested in uniting anything at all – they’re only interested in constantly fighting over the floods but at the same time Peua Thai are trying to get the amart and the UDD to join hands. This is slowly destroying the movement and its potential with the excuse that ‘we have to wait for the floods to be solved’ but the floods aren’t going to go away quickly and more importantly, this is going to change into something which will destroy the government.
Nevertheless, these floods weren’t caused by an evil amart plan. Don’t overestimate their abilities and don’t believe rumours which will make us too scared to fight and overcome the amart.
The floods were caused by this year’s heavy rain, like those in 2485 and the Thai state’s long-standing inefficiency in water-management, which predates this government. In addition, the amart, who have long occupied our country have refused to invest in a water system for dealing with emergencies even though Bangkok, Ayutthaya and Pathum Thani are in the flood plain of the Chaopraya. We need to understand that new thinking about major development projects began in earnest under the TRT government but the amart group have always attacked it.
The political issues which have got into the floods are the responsibility of the yellow shirts and the army, who have no intention of joining the government in helping solve the water crisis. This shows us clearly that the electoral victory and the setting up of the government have not translated into Peua Thai control of the state.
In addition to their lack of cooperation with the government, the amart group of salim, army and the Democrats have seized the opportunity to attack the government heavily for its inefficiency, even though the government has tried its hardest in a situation where it has inherited these problems from previous governments.
The fact that PM Yingluck shares the emotions of the people to the extent that she has cried is important because we can compare this with Abhisit and Prayuth who had a part to play in ordering the cold-blooded murder of Red Shirts and did this without feeling anything.
We can see that that the amart have not stopped fighting the Peua Thai government or the Red Shirts and although the army claim that they’re ‘only doing their constitutional duty’, there is lots of talk at high levels about criticising the government.
The important point is this: no matter how much the government tries to please the amart, joins with Prayuth, increasingly uses the 112 law, or remains silent over prisoners and the dead, this all has one result. It tells the amart that this government is weak and cowardly so the amart are getting steadily braver.
But this government wouldn’t be weak if it allied itself with the people and the Red Shirts, who created this government and who won the election victory in the first place. If the government changes its policy and returns to emphasizing the importance of the people and the Red Shirts, it will have huge strength and support.
That means that the government shouldn’t order the Red Shirts to sit quietly, which in turn means that the government need to remove Prayuth and the blood-stained soldiers as a matter of urgency and put the murderers of the people in front of a court. The courts also need reform and the emergency laws need to be removed to free political prisoners and the government needs to end the use of law 112 to make law reform and constitutional government, as suggested by the Nitirat group.
What is as important as all this, though, is that the government should make an announcement about megaprojects to restore quality of life and provide work for the people after the floods are over. They can do this by using money raised from the rich and cutting the army budget. Doing this would please the people for a long time and give them a strong reason to protect the government but this won’t happen if the Red Shirts don’t call for it and force the government to do what it says.
If the government chooses to return to the Red Shirts instead of pleasing the amart, they’ll present policy which will be liked by the majority of the population. When the water recedes, the amart will attack the government even more and try to create a national government under the control of the amart or the amart might weaken the Peua Thai government to the point where the government has no choice but to follow their every order. This danger is right in front of our eyes and telling the Red Shirts that staying calm and quiet is just the way to defeat.
We should understand that a society which has huge wealth inequalities needs to use repressive and dictatorial measures to prevent the poor, who are the majority, from rising up and fighting and if Yingluck’s government doesn’t implement policies which restore the people’s quality of life (policies which we have already suggested), wealth inequalities will increase greatly after the flooding, opening the way to amart dictatorship.
Theera certainly comes with quite a pedigree/CV - a major amount of it with the Royal Irrigation Dept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bkk Pundit
Mr. Theera Wongsamut
https://teakdoor.com/Gallery/albums/u.../Theera-CV.jpg
From Twitter:
tulsathit tulsathit
Abhisit: Now is not time for Yingluck to resign or dissolve House. - [at]Kom_chad_luek
1 hour ago
Sorry Abhi.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCM
The election was for four long years.
Live with it.
Obviously trying to capitalize on their huge campaign of attack disguised as criticism, and before things begin to improve.
Now is their best chance.
It will slip from their fingers if they don't act now.
That is assuming it was ever in their fingers.
Which it never was.
I can just imagine how the Red Shirt Democracy Movement would explode if this was even considered infinitesimally.
I dont think Abhi and friends comprehend what they are up against, and how silly they sound coming out with stuff like this.
But then maybe they do, and this is just political posturing to add to their campaign of creating a fabricated political crisis.
THE RED SHIRT DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT - A new reality for the Amart.
I wonder if they ever regret their 2006 coup now.
^ You know Calgary, it is not uncommon for democratically elected leaders to call elections or resign when they have screwed up. I think some people call it integrity. You might have heard of it (you certainly don't posses any...).
It happens in democracies all over the world. Japan being somewhat of an extreme example.
The government is answerable and accountable to the people who put it there.
I would certainly have a lot more respect for Yingluck, if after this mess is dealt with, she displayed such integrity and called an election. It might even be a master stroke....it would certainly be a change from previous governments. Abhisit famously didn't resign and/or call an election after April/May 2010 and should have done.
Abhisit is right (even if he is playing a game...?). The post-flood situation is going to be crucial to get this country back on its feet. It needs a stable government to do that. However, once things are back on an even keel, perhaps Yingluck should let the people of this country decide on how well they think things have been handled...you know, as happens in democracies....
You know...the people....the important element in all this.
I honestly believe Calgary, that you are one of the most anti-democracy people I've ever encountered.
I beg to differQuote:
Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
Calgary is shining example of somebody that supports red democracy.
I have no doubt this happens, but it does not detract that some things in government are political decisions in as much as the minister has to sign them off. A civil servant making these decisions on their own or going against the ministers decision; its one of the few things that can cause you to be fired, loose your pension in very short order and eventually go to jail. The only practical route for potential water coup plotters to miss manage the dams would have to be shady back room deals with the minister of agriculture or more likely banharn. If banharn is part of the water coup, its weird that his boy would stand up and say I ordered it to happen, as this takes pressure off PT. It would also make taksin's decision to invite banharn to join the coalition and give him the ministry of agriculture one of most spectrally poor political decisions made in thailand for quite a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettyboo
Given that if you are plotting a coup you would want a plan that has a high probability of success. In the case of a water coup; you would need to be confident that your actions would lead to a major crisis, relying on 1 in 10 year weather is not clever unless you have very very good wether predictions available.
For me the smoking gun that would support a water coup theory would be that the dams were so badly mismanaged that even a small increase in rain fall in august and september would lead to a major flooding crisis. Given that the dam and weather data is in the public domain, this should not be too hard to find this smoking gun in that data.
As I have said I am more than happy to accept that there is an organised campaign by the dems, bluebloods, et al to take advantage of this crisis. But I would like to see evidence of that smoking gun before believing in a long term plot to flood the country and generate this crisis.
Prime Ministers occasionally resign (though not often unless it's clear that they're going to be pushed if they don't) but I can't think of any examples where ruling parties have called elections in a situation anything like the current one. Can you?Quote:
it is not uncommon for democratically elected leaders to call elections or resign when they have screwed up.
I wonder if Yingluck ever thinks of that note I handed her just before the election, which essentially said, "Strike hard, and strike first" after receiving an electoral mandate
A sentiment also enunciated in that Dan Post above, #732.
Mealy-mouthing around with this Amart gets ya nowhere.
^I'm sure she keeps it in her wallet next the the photo's of her mom and dad.
^ :rofl:
AyeQuote:
Originally Posted by hazz
As with other far fetched conspiracy theories, there's always a simpler alternative that will achieve the same results, with a much higher chance of success rate and with a much lower chance of getting caught.
It's as though they are deliberately trying to make things more difficult then they need to be. Why would anybody do that?
No I can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan
That is why this is so silly, designed for one purpose only, trying to change the conversation from one of a disaster crisis, to one of a Govt. crisis.
A fine example of The Nation's bottom-of-the-barrel journalism. I look forward to the next article from this paragon of journalistic integrity calling for a halt to political hanky panky over the floods.
Premier Yingluck's cancellation of Apec trip is a missed opportunity - The Nation
Premier Yingluck's cancellation of Apec trip is a missed opportunity
It was not a good idea for Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra to cancel her plans to attend the world class Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation (Apec) meeting in Hawaii this weekend, as she is effectively losing a chance to put Thailand in its rightful place at the international forum...blah...blah...blah...
^Gosh its nice to know that its not only cal who thinks we are all mindless automatons. presumably the nation is pissed at yingluck for cancelling the trip because they had beautifully written piece already written; shedding her for leaving the country in a time of crisis. rather piss poor really
No, probably because this situation has never happened before?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan
So rather than being 'not uncommon', it's unprecedented.
Gerbil, talking of stalking..... Care to guesstimate
a] how many times you've said you would no longer bother responding to Calgary (I think it's 3 but I may have missed others)?
b] how many times since then that you have?