Thread: Thailand : Reconciliation begins today

Thai PM urges every social group to unite for national reconciliation



BANGKOK, June 20 (TNA) - Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva Sunday morning called on every group in society to help eradicate differences in order to achieve national reconciliation.

Presently, criticisms on the national reconciliation are made, causing considerable confusion. What the government is talking about it is for every group in society to gather force and consider on issues which have caused conflict, for example, (amending) the constitution and media reform and then create a mechanism to resolve, Mr Abhisit said during his weekly TV and radio address.

He said his national reconciliation initiative was not meant for reconciliation between the government and any particular group or between one colour with other colour.

For example, the independent panel headed by Kanit Na Nakorn set up recently is tasked with probing the recent deadly protests and is not meant to find faults with anybody, Mr Abhisit said.

“Once the facts are revealed, it will lead to justice and eventually creating reconciliation,” he said.

On national reform, Mr Abhisit said every social injustice would be considered and concerned government agencies will support the civil sector to be appointed in ridding it.

“This job will not be accomplished by this government. Rules will be issued by Prime Minister’s Office to help keep the committee in existence even though the government will change in future,” Mr Abhisit said.

My government and I don’t own this task. I want every Thai to own [the process] so that it could proceed,” Mr Abhisit added.

mcot.net

Reconciliation at the point of a gun just aint gonna work.
And neither is reconciliation arbitrated by a corrupt politically biased judicial system.

Rather than reconciliation, Abhisit is driving the wedge of division even deeper into the heart of the nation by his oppressive, military backed dictatorial style. I doubt very much that anyone, even his own supporters, are fooled by this political spin and rhetoric. His words say one thing and his actions say another.

Originally Posted by Mid

Thai PM urges every social group to unite for national reconciliation



BANGKOK, June 20 (TNA) - Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva Sunday morning called on every group in society to help eradicate differences in order to achieve national reconciliation.

This guy is so full of bullshit you can literally see it popping out of his eyeballs and every other orifice in his face. Reconcilliation bla bla bla , he doesn't even know what the word really means.

I don't think reconciliation is possible, not with the red thugs and their terrorist supporters

I think the PM is trying, but he knows it's going to fail because he is dealing with thugs. The division is already there and only a strong charismatic leader could repair the division.

The reds did the damage, they need to face the consequences even if it means to go after everyone of them, DrB included

Originally Posted by Perota

And that's not Abhisit, because strong and charismatic are not qualities that are

associated with him. His lack of leadership is obvious since the coup. He has

always been seen as Sondhi's puppet .


Khun Thaksin on the other hand ...

So, when you're done fellating Thaksin, maybe you can support and substantiate your statements above?

As far as I can see, Abhisit has shown admirable leadership and strategic abilities.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

I don't think reconciliation is possible, not with the red thugs and their terrorist supporters

I just love your infallible support of the elites. The peasants feel they have been robbed of their political voice, and yet they should just remain aloof and silent, otherwise they are just thugs and fascists.

Interesting POV, BF.

Qu'ils mangent de la brioche.

I don't see reconciliation on the cards for a long time... I think Abhisit is trying to gain support and re-gain lost prestige by taking the nationalist approach (borderline racism, I would say, I see a lot of it in Thailand unfortunately). Nothing will change, ultimately the elite will retain power...

^ I got some news for you ad nauseam democracy shills and dreamers:

Originally Posted by Norgy

Nothing will change, ultimately the elite will retain power...

THIS WILL NEVER CHANGE - and not just in Thailand, but anywhere in the world.

You have the same 'elites' in charge in Europe, in the USA, in England, in Russia, in China, in Japan, and anywhere else that you can think of. This very status quo (look up the big word) has not changed, and will not changed.

Those of you shooting your mouths off the loudest about the 'elites' in Thailand, are coming from countries where different elites are running the show - and nowhere are they the 'democratically' elected elites.

So, if you spout off and complain about the sad state of affairs in Thailand, then it's hypocritical how you portray yourselves as some kind of white knights because you come from a culture and country where these horrible elitist problems don't exist -- when they are just as omnipresent.

... and what have you done about changing them in your home countries?

Let me guess -- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

... and what are you doing to bring about change in Thailand?

Let me guess again -- ABSOLUTELY SHIT PISS NOTHING!

Proof of bitter and angry hypocrites provided -- next!

Originally Posted by Agent_Smith

The peasants feel they have been robbed of their political voice,

actually they weren't since they don't care about voting, only getting back their dear leader one way or another, even if it was through a coup

Stop smoking whatever you are smoking in your little hut in the rice fields,

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

^ I got some news for you ad nauseam democracy shills and dreamers:

Originally Posted by Norgy

Nothing will change, ultimately the elite will retain power...

THIS WILL NEVER CHANGE - and not just in Thailand, but anywhere in the world.

You have the same 'elites' in charge in Europe, in the USA, in England, in Russia, in China, in Japan, and anywhere else that you can think of. This very status quo (look up the big word) has not changed, and will not changed.

Those of you shooting your mouths off the loudest about the 'elites' in Thailand, are coming from countries where different elites are running the show - and nowhere are they the 'democratically' elected elites.

So, if you spout off and complain about the sad state of affairs in Thailand, then it's hypocritical how you portray yourselves as some kind of white knights because you come from a culture and country where these horrible elitist problems don't exist -- when they are just as omnipresent.

... and what have you done about changing them in your home countries?

Let me guess -- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

... and what are you doing to bring about change in Thailand?

Let me guess again -- ABSOLUTELY SHIT PISS NOTHING!

Proof of bitter and angry hypocrites provided -- next!

And therefore they have carte blanche to fuck the people over as hard as they want and thats fine with you ?

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

^ I got some news for you ad nauseam democracy shills and dreamers:

Originally Posted by Norgy

Nothing will change, ultimately the elite will retain power...

THIS WILL NEVER CHANGE - and not just in Thailand, but anywhere in the world.

You have the same 'elites' in charge in Europe, in the USA, in England, in Russia, in China, in Japan, and anywhere else that you can think of. This very status quo (look up the big word) has not changed, and will not changed.

Those of you shooting your mouths off the loudest about the 'elites' in Thailand, are coming from countries where different elites are running the show - and nowhere are they the 'democratically' elected elites.

So, if you spout off and complain about the sad state of affairs in Thailand, then it's hypocritical how you portray yourselves as some kind of white knights because you come from a culture and country where these horrible elitist problems don't exist -- when they are just as omnipresent.

... and what have you done about changing them in your home countries?

Let me guess -- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

... and what are you doing to bring about change in Thailand?

Let me guess again -- ABSOLUTELY SHIT PISS NOTHING!

Proof of bitter and angry hypocrites provided -- next!

I never once said I was in support of 'democracy', nor that I was in support of the government in my home countries.

Originally Posted by Norgy

I never once said I was in support of 'democracy', nor that I was in support of the government in my home countries.

Should have clarified that my rant wasn't directed at you, but was using your quote to make a point -- this was directed at all the misdirected, unhappy, and bitter miscreants who keep screaming about 'democracy' and who can't seem to provide a single suggestion on how their wet dream is supposed to be implemented, yet are all fired up over how evil Abhisit is, while fondling themselves for the return of Thaksin.

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

screaming about 'democracy' and who can't seem to provide a single suggestion on how their wet dream is supposed to be implemented,

If you consider democracy a 'wet dream' thats for you to justify. Elections daff. In case you hadn't noticed, according to PM Abhisit this country is on a Roadmap and Reconcilition process leading to democratic elections. Are you calling dear Mark a bare faced liar?

Of course in Thailand itself- and I understand you've been here before- many people are indeed calling dear Mark a bare faced liar. It is a compelling example of the level of trust that exists between the government of Thailand and it's disenfrachised people. OK, it's a big word so-

Wiki- disenfranchisement is the revocation of the right of suffrage (the right to vote) of a person or group of people, or rendering a person's vote less effective, or ineffective.

Many of the disenfranchised people of Thailand consider the Roadmap to be yet another Establishment scam- because they just plain do not trust a government and Establishment that has repeatedly disenfranchised them, we are talking an incredible thirteen military coups since WW2. And the recent Judicial coups have taken Thai politics to a whole new level of farce, a further nadir- added to the military coups, we now have fifteen coups since WW2. Surely, surely you can understand the peoples level of cynicism, of mistrust with the government of Thailand and it's shady Establishment?

You people can argue whether yellow or red is better until you are blue in the face. Basically, you are either saying who you would cast your vote for (if you had one) or perhaps advancing an argument against democracy if you are a Yellow shirt sympathiser. Well that is an argument I totally reject, but more to the point that is not what the incumbent government is saying anyway. So if you are pro Democrat/ Establishment/ PAD/ Military and you also think dear Mark and his puppeteers are lying to the people of this country, at least have the honesty to come out and say so.

Sadly, you will find no shortage of people that agree with you because that is what happens when you repeatedly disenfranchise people in a democracy.

Personally, I'm of more of a wait and see mindset.

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

screaming about 'democracy' and who can't seem to provide a single suggestion on how their wet dream is supposed to be implemented,

If you consider democracy a 'wet dream' thats for you to justify. Elections daff. In case you hadn't noticed, according to PM Abhisit this country is on a Roadmap and Reconcilition process leading to democratic elections. Are you calling dear Mark a bare faced liar?

Of course in Thailand itself- and I understand you've been here before- many people are indeed calling dear Mark a bare faced liar. It is a compelling example of the level of trust that exists between the government of Thailand and it's disenfrachised people. OK, it's a big word so-

Wiki- disenfranchisement is the revocation of the right of suffrage (the right to vote) of a person or group of people, or rendering a person's vote less effective, or ineffective.

Many of the disenfranchised people of Thailand consider the Roadmap to be yet another Establishment scam- because they just plain do not trust a government and Establishment that has repeatedly disenfranchised them, we are talking an incredible thirteen military coups since WW2. And the recent Judicial coups have taken Thai politics to a whole new level of farce, a further nadir- added to the military coups, we now have fifteen coups since WW2. Surely, surely you can understand the peoples level of cynicism, of mistrust with the government of Thailand and it's shady Establishment?

You people can argue whether yellow or red is better until you are blue in the face. Basically, you are either saying who you would cast your vote for (if you had one) or perhaps advancing an argument against democracy if you are a Yellow shirt sympathiser. Well that is an argument I totally reject, but more to the point that is not what the incumbent government is saying anyway. So if you are pro Democrat/ Establishment/ PAD/ Military and you also think dear Mark and his puppeteers are lying to the people of this country, at least have the honesty to come out and say so.

Sadly, you will find no shortage of people that agree with you because that is what happens when you repeatedly disenfranchise people in a democracy.

Personally, I'm of more of a wait and see mindset.

Another great rant. Full of fallacy arguments, the central theme of which seems to be that the last election was not democratic and that voters are disenfranchised.

Can you name one member of the House of Representatives that was not democratically elected?

Can you show me one example of where voters in Thailand have had their suffrage revoked?

Can you show me where the voters in the districts represented by the MP’s that voted for the current coalition have expressed any dissatisfaction with the results? Were there masses of people from Buriram or Suphanburi participating in the UDD protests because they felt democracy had failed them?

The people that were at the protest in most cases were a people who’s MP are now in the opposition. Being in the opposition is not a failure of democracy; it is being in the minority.

The fact remains, the House of Representatives is composed of individuals that were elected and therefore represent the Thai people and the majority of those representatives have elected the current government.
TH

^ I think the point TH is making is that it appears that the voters are not having an issue with the way things have gone, and are currently going.

It appears that only expats, with absolutely no ability to effect anything in Thailand, are having issues with the political system - which is amusing in its own right.

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by Thaihome

the central theme of which seems to be that the last election was not democratic and that voters are disenfranchised.

You are capable of coherent argument, so I would have expected better from you TH.

I have taken the trouble to read through my quoted Post again, very slowly and methodically, to see if there is even the slightest innuendo of your outrageous assertion. There is none whatsoever. If you wish to debate with me intelligently, at least have the courtesy to attempt intelligent debate in return.

Yawwwn, must I . In the last democratic elections, Samak of the Phhuea Thai party was elected Prime Minister. Were people disenfranchised? No, they were not. The losing side were pissed off, as they often are, but they had their vote just the same, and it was not enough to get their preferred candidate elected. Diddums. Being pissed off, or a sore loser, is not Disenfranchisement- there is a Wiki definition in my Post above.

The Disenfranchisement, the overturning of the popular vote, came a few months after the democratic elections, what we term the 'Judicial coup', (the first one). Specifically, democratically elected Samak was removed as Prime Minister by the Thai Judiciary for having accepted (from memory) 5500 bht expense money for his televised cooking show. I've spent more than that on a bottle of wine.

Originally Posted by Thaihome

Can you show me one example of where voters in Thailand have had their suffrage revoked?

I can show you many, what on earth is your point here? Are you saying that a country like Thailand can hold a democratic election- and then throw out the winner of the election via an Unconstitutional coup- and that is Not disenfranchisement? Or are you saying that after a military coup that overturns the popular vote (take your pick of 13 since WW2) the voters are not disenfranchised, because the National Constitution is still that of a Democracy? That just means the coup was illegal under the Constitution- the voters are disenfranchised just the same. You sadden me.

Originally Posted by Thaihome

Can you show me where the voters in the districts represented by the MP’s that voted for the current coalition have expressed any dissatisfaction with the results? Were there masses of people from Buriram or Suphanburi participating in the UDD protests because they felt democracy had failed them?

The most admirable of the demonstrators imo, or the many people that did not demonstrate but supported their cause, would be those who's preferred Parliamentary candidate 'benefited' from the various coups- ie were appointed to power, most recently by the farcical Judicial coups and subsequent tacked together coalition. Whilst still supporting their candidate in a democratic sense, they are outraged by the abuse of democracy that brought them into the government coalition. Yes, they do exist- I had a very interesting evening with some Bangkok professionals a few years ago who had exactly this mindset. Admirable. And there were indeed people from Buriram (Newin faction) at the UDD protests that I know of, Suphanburi (Banharn/ Mr 5% faction) I do not know.

Honest question- what is your value judgement on a tacked together, as opposed to elected, coalition that relies on such people for it's majority? And what is your value judgement on a political party that appoints as deputy Prime Minister a fellow who brought down the previous (gasp!) elected Democrat government in a corruption scandal? and who is currently barred from running for political election? Or a Foreign Minister that participated in the PAD occupation of Thailands major international airport, and is a public supporter of permanently disenfranchising the popular vote in this country? Or a chief Government Whip who was promoted to this position after he had to step down from the Abhisit government because of a corruption scandal? But I digress- it is your right to politically support who you want to, and if you can vote in this country, your right to excercise it. Like I said, you can argue yellow or red until you are blue.



In accord with the stated intention of Abhisit's Roadmap, and in agreement with a huge majority of the population of Thailand, I wish to see this country return to electoral democracy. Equally importantly, an electoral democracy where the popular vote is respected, and not repeatedly disenfranchised. It does not seem such a radical demand to me, because this country is already Constitutionally a democracy (although you can now argue a quasi-democracy thanks to the Military junta's amendments). I would thus like to see the Constitution changed too, back to a majority elected as opposed to appointed Senate- and you are well aware that an overwhelming majority of the population of Thailand agrees with me here as well. Because only then will the majority of the Thai citizenry have any trust or meaningful 'stake' in it's government. And only then will their actually be a government that is accountable to the people, ultimately because it is appointed by them.

Are you really this ignorant of the Thai political system?

There is no popular vote in Thai elections. Voters vote for a slate of candidates from the various parties, the number based on the how many MP the province is allocated. They vote for one to three depending on what provinces they are in. In December 2007 the PPP won just slightly less then a majority and setup a coalition with the minor parties to form a government. As I have said many times, the biggest member, next to the PPP itself in that coalition was the Chart Thai, whose candidates had campaigned they would not join a PPP coalition.

In addition, each voter chooses a single party to vote for and that is used to allocate the proportional or party list MP’s. This is probably the closest there is to a popular vote and in December 2007 the PPP and Democrats were virtually tied, with the Democrats actually coming out just slightly ahead.

Samak’s name was not on a single ballot in 2007. He was a party list candidate. At best his picture was on posters along with local PPP candidates. He was chosen by Thaksin to be party leader because he was well known to many rural voters because of his royalist views and activities, going back to inciting the Village Scouts to attack the students in 1976.

Samak was not elected as PM in the last election. He was elected PM in the first session of the Parliament. He was elected by the virtually the same PM’s that later elected Somchai and then Abhisit. The difference between Jan 2008 and Jan 2009 is the Chart Thai MP and several factions that had belonged to the PPP voted for Abhisit.

Samak was disqualified from the PM position because it was proven he was on a salary of 80k a month from a TV production company. The PM is specifically forbidden from having any outside employment. He also submitted a sworn statement saying he was not on a salary that was proven to be a lie. He was only disqualified and has he had quit the job, he could have run for PM again, but Thaksin chose to have Somchai, his brother-in-law be PM.

The entire thrust of your post is based on a complete misunderstanding of the election process and the events that have transpired since the December 2007 election.

TH

Originally Posted by Thaihome

Samak was disqualified from the PM position because it was proven he was on a salary of 80k a month from a TV production company. The PM is specifically forbidden from having any outside employment. He also submitted a sworn statement saying he was not on a salary that was proven to be a lie. He was only disqualified and has he had quit the job, he could have run for PM again, but Thaksin chose to have Somchai, his brother-in-law be PM.

The entire thrust of your post is based on a complete misunderstanding of the election process and the events that have transpired since the December 2007 election.

TH

How can that be? I mean, sabang lives here, a fact he enjoys throwing around frequently to verbally disqualify those who don't, and thus by virtue of living in Thailand, does that not infuse him automatically with indisputable authority for everything he says -- even if he is wrong?

Seriously, thanks for taking the trouble to clarify that, and how, is as legitimate as the governments of Samak and Somchai.

Did you ever notice that Samak is to Thai politics, as Butterfly is to this forum?

Originally Posted by sabang

Sadly, you will find no shortage of people that agree with you because that is what happens when you repeatedly disenfranchise people in a democracy.

Personally, I'm of more of a wait and see mindset.

Yeah, same here -- I'm waiting and seeing what kind of answer to come up with for TH.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

only getting back their dear leader one way or another,

a legitimately elected (twice) leader ousted by the Bangkok Elite, remember

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Stop smoking whatever you are smoking in your little hut in the rice fields,

buzzkill

Originally Posted by Agent_Smith

Originally Posted by Butterfly

only getting back their dear leader one way or another,

a legitimately elected (twice) leader ousted by the Bangkok Elite, remember

Elected by whom, if I may ask?

^the folks in Thailand

Originally Posted by Thaihome

Are you really this ignorant of the Thai political system?

dude, we are talking sabang here