Thread: Kanchanaburi Tiger Temple

this again

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Price list: A sign at the Tiger Temple detailing the services on offer for tourists who want to get closer to the tigers

...
Tourists are also advised to steer clear of dressing in brightly-coloured clothes to avoid getting the tigers excited.

Interesting, I never knew about this place. Might have to take the wife there one day.

No brightly coloured clothes they say? Who are all the people in the bright yellow shirts ? LOL

Thanks!!!

Too Close for Comfort: Thailand’s Tiger Temple
By KRISTA MAHR | September 21, 2010 |
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Everybody makes ill-informed decisions.

This photograph, taken at a popular tourist stop in Kanchanaburi, Thailand, is a testament to a recent one of mine. Photos like these are the bread and butter of the so-called “Tiger Temple,” a sprawling monastery-cum-wildlife-sanctuary a few hours outside Bangkok, which functions both as a draw for tourist dollars and a home to over 70 tigers and other animals roaming the grounds.

Correction: The tigers aren’t exactly roaming. The tigers I saw during my visit were all chained, so that in the afternoons, paying visitors like yours truly can sign a quick waiver and dish over 500 baht — $16, roughly the equivalent of a (legal) massage in Bangkok — to get up close and personal with the tigers at the “Tiger Canyon.”


There, the animals are chained up and trained to sit quietly while tourists pose next to them. For an extra 1000 baht ($32), you can get your picture taken sitting on a tiger’s back, etc.

As Bryan wrote here last week, wild tiger populations across the globe are in dismal shape. Though by some estimates there are over 10,000 tigers in captivity in the U.S. alone, there are less than 3,500 wild tigers in the entire world today. Their numbers have suffered from habitat loss, loss of prey from human hunting, and poaching for their skins, body parts and bones, which are used for medicinal purposes.

The same day I visited the temple, an article ran in the Bangkok Post that an enormous wildlife trafficking ring was broken up in Hanoi, a hub for the illegal wildlife trade in Asia. Over 1300 pounds of rare animal bones, including tiger and elephant bones, were confiscated in the raid.

The Tiger Temple’s past – and, according to critics, its present — is also linked with the lucrative tiger trade.

According to the organization, the first tiger cub arrived at the monastery in 1999 after her mother was killed by poachers near the Thai-Burma border. The cub, too, had been sold to a businessman to be stuffed, but for whatever reason, was delivered to the temple instead, which had started to gain a reputation for collecting injured animals.

That first cub died, but other cubs were later delivered from the hands of poachers to the temple. From those first few rescues, as the story goes, the tiger population has grown to 75 tigers living at the temple today.

To the temple’s critics, however, that population growth is a problem, chiefly because they say the temple is employing tactics which are illegal. A controversial report released in 2008 by Care for the Wild International (CWI) concluded:

Although the Tiger Temple may have begun as a rescue centre for tigers, it has become a breeding centre to produce and keep tigers solely for the tourists and therefore the Temple’s benefit.

Illegal international trafficking helps to maintain the Temples’ captive tiger population. There is no possibility of the Temples’ breeding programme contributing to the conservation of the species in the wild.

The report claims, among other things, that the temple has illegally traded its tigers with tiger breeders in Laos to mix up the temple’s genetic pool, and that the temple does not have appropriate permission to breed tigers on property or enough information about the tigers origins or genetic makeup to meet international criteria for aiding tigers’ conservation. The report also writes the tigers are at risk of malnourishment and routinely handled too roughly by staff. The temple has denied wrongdoing or mistreatment of the animals.

Why are the temple’s tigers so tolerant of humans hanging around them? Despite rumors, CWI did not find any evidence of the tigers’ being drugged to stay docile for the tourists, nor has there been any other hard evidence found to indicate drugs are used. On the day that I visited, I asked Archie Ezekiel, a Canadian backpacker and volunteer at the temple, why the tigers seemed so mellow. He said, in line with the temple’s literature, that the tigers had just been fed (chicken and vitamin supplements) and were taking their regular afternoon snooze. “No matter what you do with animals there’s going to be controversy,” Ezekiel said. In the afternoon, he told me, there is a special session when visitors can observe cubs playing outside in less restrictive conditions. “There is no way you can tell me those animals are drugged.”

When I asked if he felt like this was a positive place for tiger conservation, Ezekiel said given the shrinking numbers of tigers in the wild, he did. “If this is what we have to do for people to see these amazing animals, then I’m all for it.”

But perception is everything, and places that put tigers on display as tame creatures could actually be damaging their cause. Dr. Jan Schmidt-Burbach, the wildlife veterinary program officer of the World Society for the Protection of Animals, writes in an email: “Breeding tigers to such numbers in captivity might lead to the misconception that there are plenty of tigers, and protection of those dangerous tigers in the wild is not required anymore.” Schmidt-Burbach, who is based in Bangkok and has visited the temple himself, goes on to say:

I do not see how cuddling tigers could be an effective conservation measure…In my opinion, there is a valid threat in making tigers appear sweet and harmless; in real life they would not be, and any news on human-tiger conflict situation would cause adverse reactions by demonizing those wild tigers, making tamed captive tigers appear as the ‘better’ tigers.

It’s undeniable that it was striking to see the tigers so close. They are gorgeous, strong and scary. But knowing that in the abstract — or at the least from behind some fence — is more than enough. Some human-tiger incidents have been reported at the temple and other places like it, but nothing disastrous has happened yet. When and if it does, unfortunately, it’s the tigers that are very likely going to pay for it.

Perhaps naively, I didn’t really feel like I was in danger that day posing with the tigers. But I do have a moral hangover from the whole thing. As somebody who tries to avoid zoos, I personally found the spectacle of tigers on chains a little depressing, a feeling that was confirmed when I watched a staffer swat a beautiful cub on the nose. It wasn’t a hard swat, but there was something out of the natural order about watching a human discipline a tiger for a photo op. I guess that’s why this kind of role reversal is usually a circus act – and not an act of conservation.





Read more: Too Close for Comfort: Thailand’s Tiger Temple | Ecocentric | TIME.com

I feel the only good thing about the place is these Tigers are protected from the poaches.

It's absolutely horrible to see these amazing creatures chained to the ground.

Originally Posted by robuzo

A shame the bonehead who wrote the article chose to describe this exploitative money-making enterprise as a "wildlife haven." Take a walk around the place and it's clear inside 15 minutes what it's about, unless you're brain-dead. Dig a little deeper and the ugliness isn't hard to find, but don't expect a Daily Mail "journalist" to manage that.

you went there ? is it really that bad ?

The pictures in the first article didn't load up initially. So they are now charging 1000b for a pic with the Tigers?

They were asking for a donation when I went but not specifically for "X".

Cash cow.

It’s interesting that the criticism of the “tiger temple” has progressed from the accusations of mistreatment and drugging from years past to now issues with breeding too many of them and apparently making them too available to the public:

Breeding tigers to such numbers in captivity might lead to the misconception that there are plenty of tigers, and protection of those dangerous tigers in the wild is not required anymore.” Schmidt-Burbach, who is based in Bangkok and has visited the temple himself, goes on to say:

I do not see how cuddling tigers could be an effective conservation measure…In my opinion, there is a valid threat in making tigers appear sweet and harmless; in real life they would not be, and any news on human-tiger conflict situation would cause adverse reactions by demonizing those wild tigers, making tamed captive tigers appear as the ‘better’ tigers.

All I know is that almost every single person that walks out of that place having sat next to one those tigers is in complete awe and is overwhelmed by the experience. Is that necessarily a bad thing? Is the fact they make money (mostly used to improve the facilities) by making these tigers available for such an experience a bad thing?

The Tiger Temple makes no pretentions on what it about. It is a place that keeps and breeds tigers to make them available for close contact with humans [for a price]. For some reason, that seems to make some people very angry. My suggestion to them is to go there and sit next to one those tigers and see how you feel.

TH

All I know is that almost every single person that walks out of that place having sat next to one those tigers is in complete awe

yes, but what sort of person would want to do that in the first place ?

tigers are wild animals, why tame them? for what purpose exactly? they should be in their natural habitat, not an artificial environment being prodded by stupid "in awe" tourists nor their idealistic misguided tree hugging volunteers.

these animals are being produced and harvested purely for the benefit of the monks who run this circus.

who says tigers want close contact with humans anyway, its not the natural way of things. it reminds me of the film king kong, where the explorer bought a wild ape back to new york and attempted to tame him.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by robuzo

A shame the bonehead who wrote the article chose to describe this exploitative money-making enterprise as a "wildlife haven." Take a walk around the place and it's clear inside 15 minutes what it's about, unless you're brain-dead. Dig a little deeper and the ugliness isn't hard to find, but don't expect a Daily Mail "journalist" to manage that.

you went there ? is it really that bad ?

I was there about seven years ago, I think. I really couldn't see the point, and the facilities were pretty bad then.

Thaihome is so far off the mark about the criticisms that it hardly merits a reply, but suffice it to say, the issue is about the trade in tigers and tiger parts. There would be no issue with a facility that was actually involved in tiger conservation making money off of the effort, but the Tiger Temple is in no way contributing to preservation of the species or of tiger habitat.

"every single person that walks out of that place having sat next to one those tigers is in complete awe and is overwhelmed by the experience" Every person with the mind of a child. An adult who stops and thinks about what the "experience" actually represents (read tax exile's comment) would likely come to a different conclusion, unless they have the infantile point of view that life is just about whatever pleases them so they don't have to think too much. Treating a magnificent predator like a Newfoundland with stripes is revolting.

Originally Posted by Thaihome

The Tiger Temple makes no pretentions on what it about. It is a place that keeps and breeds tigers to make them available for close contact with humans [for a price]. For some reason, that seems to make some people very angry. My suggestion to them is to go there and sit next to one those tigers and see how you feel.

Seems that the Government's that rule countries where these Tigers naturally roam don't put sufficient finds towards allocating reserves and protecting them against poachers.

As I understand Lions and other great cats not to mention other endangered species are now thriving in the wild in reserves in South Africa.

Wouldn't it be lovely if some of these Tigers could be introduced back into the wild?

Originally Posted by Loy Toy

Wouldn't it be lovely if some of these Tigers could be introduced back into the wild?

That's extremely hard, if not impossible, to do. The beautiful thing is, with enough space and a good prey base tigers breed almost like stray cats. As long as there is a market for them, which is what places like the "Tiger Temple" do by commodifying/commercializing tigers, they will never be safe in the reserves.

Originally Posted by Loy Toy

Originally Posted by Thaihome

The Tiger Temple makes no pretentions on what it about. It is a place that keeps and breeds tigers to make them available for close contact with humans [for a price]. For some reason, that seems to make some people very angry. My suggestion to them is to go there and sit next to one those tigers and see how you feel.

Seems that the Government's that rule countries where these Tigers naturally roam don't put sufficient finds towards allocating reserves and protecting them against poachers.

As I understand Lions and other great cats not to mention other endangered species are now thriving in the wild in reserves in South Africa.

Wouldn't it be lovely if some of these Tigers could be introduced back into the wild?

Yes, indeed it would be lovely if that were only possible. You have any suggestions? Unfortunately, there are few places in the world left where Asian Tigers can roam freely. Those remaining places need to be protected.

I do believe that anyone that experiences the Tiger Temple comes away with a greater appreciation of the animals and would be much more willing to contribute to efforts to save the wild habitat. Instead of such organizations condemning the Tiger Temple, they should use it to solicit help for their causes.

TH

Better than your average western zoo maybe?

Black Market Tigers Linked to Thai Temple, Report Says
Christine Dell'Amore in Kanchanaburi Province, Thailand
National Geographic News
June 20, 2008

It's the hottest part of the day at a forest monastery in western Thailand, and tourists are led by the hand, one by one, into the beating sun to pet chained tigers and smile for the camera.

Every day at this unusual "Tiger Temple," as many as 800 tourists pay 300 Thai baht (9 U.S. dollars) each for their chance to interact with the endangered big cats.



The tigers—several of which were born at the compound—live alongside monks and volunteers in what one temple handler called a beautiful blend of Buddhism and conservation.

Though the remote monastery near the Burmese border is considered a must-see by some tourists, it's what the public doesn't see that has prompted a growing chorus of wildlife groups, both internationally and in Thailand, to call attention to its conservation missteps. (See Thailand map.)

Not only does the temple fail to preserve dwindling tigers as advertised, experts say, a new report released today by the U.K.-based conservation group, Care for the Wild International (CWI), asserts that the monastery has been trading the animals illegally with a tiger farm in neighboring Laos.

"What we feel is important is that people know this is not real conservation—people are being fooled. They are exploiting wildlife," said Guna Subramaniam, the Southeast Asia director for CWI.

CWI conducted its investigation between 2005 and 2008 with the aid of people who enlisted as temple volunteers. Subramaniam also visited the monastery in 2006 and 2007.

The temple staff dismisses any involvement in illegal trade.

Good Karma?

The temple's abbot, Pra Achan Bhusit Chan Khantitharo, began taking in abandoned and orphaned tigers in 1999, according to the temple's literature. Giving up or abandoning unwanted animals at temples is a common Buddhist practice that givers believe brings them good karma, Subramaniam said.

Soon after the temple opened its gates to tourism around 2000, monks began breeding the tigers. The temple now cares for up to 16 of the predators at a time.

The monks say that tourist dollars and Web site donations will go toward putting the rare predators back into the forests of Thailand, where they number between about 250 to 500. There are fewer than 4,000 wild tigers left in the world, according to the conservation group WWF.

"We want to become the premiere tiger facility—no one will be able to compete with us," said Rodrigo Gonzalez, a tiger handler who has lived at the temple since 2002.



But the report says the monks have paid little heed to conservation, instead illegally exchanging tigers with a tiger farm in Laos, Subramaniam said.

Tiger farms fuel the skyrocketing black market in illegal animal parts, such as tiger bones and penises, which are used for traditional Chinese medicine. (See a photo of a tiger skin on the black market in Myanmar [Burma].)

The report's investigators found that new tigers brought to the temple are often given the same name as an outgoing tiger—in essence, the animals are replaced. In particular, older male tigers are swapped for young females, possibly because the males become less manageable as they age.

The CWI report also found that though the first cub may have been donated legitimately, the rest were purchased from a farm.

Illegal Activity

A 2005 agreement signed by a Lao tiger farm owner and the temple abbot, obtained by CWI, describes the purpose of the tiger exchange as "conservation."

Yet under the international wildlife-trade treaty CITES, exporting or importing tigers across borders is illegal—unless appropriate permits have been issued to a scientific institution with a conservation purpose, the report said.

There is no evidence the temple has such a permit, according to the report. The Thai government considers it a sanctuary for temporarily holding animals, not a conservation facility.

Samart Sumanochitraporn is director of the Wildlife Conservation Office under the Bangkok-based Department of National Parks, Wildlife and Plant Conservation.

The Thai government, which by law owns the temple's animals, "is considering the future of wild animals at the temple with the most important issue the safety and welfare of the animals," Samart said in a translated email.

"The animals will stay at the temple before being relocated to [a] suitable location," he added.

No Confirmation

As for illegal trade, Samart said "there is no confirmation that the temple has been concerned in the dealing of tigers."

Gonzalez of the Tiger Temple also asserts the temple does not trade tigers. But, he said, the monks don't ask about the origins of animals that appear at their gates.

That's because the monks consider the tigers—along with the monastery's eclectic menagerie of more than 200-odd animals—part of their spiritual family.

The Buddhist temple's openness has also made it an easy target for conservation groups' criticisms, he said.

"If people want to harp on tiger trade and exploiting tigers, go to China," he said.

"We're trying to do something good here. If [conservation groups] don't see what we're doing here, that's their loss."

Witness

Edwin Wiek leads the nonprofit rescue group Wildlife Friends of Thailand.

"I was quite amazed that they're putting on a show, parading these tigers around as if they were rescued from the wild, which is not true—they were taken from a tiger farm," Wiek said.

New Zealander Fiona Patchett, a volunteer at the temple from 2005 to 2006, witnessed the exchange of a cub on the temple grounds, including the signing of its contract. The temple staff told her the young animal came from a breeding farm in Laos.

She thought it was a legitimate swap, and that the temple had permits to exchange tigers—only to realize later that it was illegal. During her experience, she said, six or seven tigers disappeared without explanation.

The tigers—which stay in their cages 21 hours a day—are also sometimes abused by temple staff, Patchett said. She saw staff sitting on tigers, hitting them with rocks and fists, and playing with their genitals. Such abuse is also detailed in the new report.

Though some past visitors to the temple have commented on Web sites that the tigers appear drugged to keep them docile, the CWI report found no evidence of drug use.

No Conservation Sense

The temple also breeds the big cats without regard to their subspecies, a practice that creates hybrids and negates the purpose of conservation, experts agree.

"If you're talking about cross breeding of subspecies, of animals out of their range, it's scientifically and ethically wrong," Wiek of Wildlife Friends said.

But Gonzalez, who like the majority of the volunteers has no previous conservation experience, said that the Tiger Temple's goal is the overall preservation of tigers. (See tiger photos.)

"They're dwindling at such a pace, we need to stop the division and stop saying, We're only concerned with Bengal tigers," Gonzalez said.

"Conservation organizations like to put themselves on high pedestals, but we don't split hairs," he said. "You try to save as much as you can."

Largest Tiger Sanctuary

In that vein, Gonzalez and the temple monks envision creating the world's largest tiger sanctuary, encompassing 40,000 acres (16,187 hectares) with an option to expand to 120,000 acres (48,562 hectares).

Under this plan, temple workers would teach tigers how to hunt and release them, so their offspring could be "wild."

Such a plan is unrealistic, experts say. No tigers raised in captivity have ever been successfully reintroduced into the wild, said Mahendra Shrestha, director of the Washington, D.C.-based Save the Tiger Fund.

"The temple makes it look like there is an easy way out for tigers in the wild," Shrestha said. "It gives the complete wrong picture of tiger conservation."

Ashok Kumar, vice chairman of the Wildlife Trust of India, agreed.
"Captive tigers do not contribute to conservation of wild tigers as they cannot be reintroduced back to the wild. The world is full of captive tigers—we do not need anymore," Kumar said.

"It is the wild tiger whose survival is in doubt," he added.

Ultimately the focus should be on those remaining wild tigers, Wiek said.
"We still have stock that is protected and sustainable. We still have a chance of having a future, and that's what we should focus on—not tigers in cages that are not pure subspecies," he said.

Once in a Lifetime

Back at the temple, a monk named Kruba Som sits in the shade near the tiger cages, casually positioning a young tiger's paw on tourists' heads as they line up for photos.

"People want once in their life to come here," he said through a translator.

Over the din of delighted laughter, he said he wants tourists to "be happy with tigers like the [monks] are happy with them."

But Wiek and other conservationists worry that Buddhism's power can trick unsuspecting tourists into thinking they are saving tigers.

"The making of pictures for 30 dollars with the tigers is a lucrative circus act," Wiek said, "nothing more or less."

news.nationalgeographic.com/news

Originally Posted by Mid

Not only does the temple fail to preserve dwindling tigers as advertised, experts say, a new report released today by the U.K.-based conservation group, Care for the Wild International (CWI), asserts that the monastery has been trading the animals illegally with a tiger farm in neighboring Laos.

EXPLOITING THE TIGER

Illegal Trade, Animal Cruelty and Tourists at Risk at the Tiger Temple

http://www.cwiftp.co.uk/web_files/Ti..._final_v11.pdf

in thailand, the fact alone that money can be made from an activity, justifies it.

never mind how immoral, corrupt, abhorrent or illegal that activity is.

interesting, so just another sad front for illegal activities in Thailand

Originally Posted by taxexile

in thailand, the fact alone that money can be made from an activity, justifies it.

never mind how immoral, corrupt, abhorrent or illegal that activity is.

You make Thailand sound like Randland; Ron Paul should come run for office here . In other words, that kind of thinking isn't limited to Thailand. China claims that the "market solution" to the tiger parts problem is to breed lots of tigers, allow sale of the parts and dilute the market. It's been tried with ivory and doesn't work.

OK I guess I won't visit the Tiger spot! Seemed like a good idea!

Originally Posted by robuzo

That's extremely hard, if not impossible, to do.

I truly believe it is possible that reserves can allocated with proper security if Governments wished to do so. So often greed gets in the way of what really matters.

Originally Posted by Thaihome

You have any suggestions? Unfortunately, there are few places in the world left where Asian Tigers can roam freely

Originally Posted by Loy Toy

Originally Posted by robuzo

That's extremely hard, if not impossible, to do.

I truly believe it is possible that reserves can allocated with proper security if Governments wished to do so. So often greed gets in the way of what really matters.

Oh, that's definitely possible if the will is there. India was doing quite well for a while, although with Chinese demand driving up prices populations are again under major threat. I was referring to reintroduction of captive-bred tigers. That sort of thing can work with animals that can live in herds and don't have to learn a lot about catching prey. Teaching a young tiger how to bring down a wild pig is very hard.

A four years old, 1,500 word article, full of accusations, innuendo, and opinions, and it comes down to this single line.

Originally Posted by Mid

Black Market Tigers Linked to Thai Temple, Report Says
Christine Dell'Amore in Kanchanaburi Province, Thailand
National Geographic News
June 20, 2008


No Confirmation

As for illegal trade, Samart said "there is no confirmation that the temple has been concerned in the dealing of tigers."

news.nationalgeographic.com/news

Thank you mid for making the point of my post saying the criticism has changed.

You don’t see these accusations so much anymore, as they never could come up with any proof. Now they are saying they breed too many in captivity, and that humans should not be allowed to come that close as it will make people think they are not endangered.

I recommend people go there and you will come away with an appreciation for the animals you never had before. Then pull out your checkbook and donate to wildlife fund of your choice.
TH

Time to Shut Down Tiger Farms
Saturday, 30 January 2010


Tiger breeding cages at Guilin Bear and Tiger Farm.
Image courtesy Belinda Wright/WPSI.

With less than an estimated 3,500 tigers still alive in the wild, a summit of thirteen nations recently met in Thailand for the first Asia Ministerial Conference on Tiger Conservation to discuss how to save the dwindling tiger population. Tigers are under threat due to habitat erosion and illegal poaching to supply tiger body parts for Asian medicines.

An important step forward in tiger preservation efforts came from the World Bank when they unequivocally stated that Asian nations must shut down privately run tiger farms as they are inhumane and fuel the illegal trade in tiger parts.

Currently, China is home to the majority of the world’s tiger farms where tigers are reared in captivity to supply parts for traditional Chinese medicines. Tiger farming also exist in Laos, Vietnam and Thailand.

Tiger farms are often cited as a means to eliminate wild tiger poaching while still meeting the demand for tiger parts used in traditional Asian medicines. However, conservation groups strongly and unanimously disagree.

“Tiger farms were established and are managed primarily for commercial trade, not conservation, driven by profit from the sales of tiger-bone wine and skins. At present, all commercial trade in tigers and their products is illegal. But as long as there are tiger farms that promise a future reopening of tiger trade, the ban cannot be effective,” explains the End Tiger Trade alliance, a collation of more than 100 organizations.

“Poaching will always be too cost-competitive an option to ignore: consider the price of a bullet, trap or poison to kill a wild tiger against an estimated US$4,000 to US$10,000 (€2,885 to €7,200) to raise a farmed tiger to maturity.”

Representatives from the Asia Ministerial Conference on Tiger Conservation have pledged to double wild tiger population figures by 2022.

Visit: Issues | AMC Tiger and http://www.endtigertrade.org/

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