Thread: Editor of "Voice of Thaksin" Magazine Arrested

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Thailand has never declared itself a 'mature' democracy. Neither does anyone here assume it is.

Do you?

Nope. I agree with you there.

But in a simple comparison paralleling the situation here to one in a 'mature' democracy, I do not think the response would be as, well, immature.


And BF, the simple and straightforward message coming from the Reds- who are of course the tip of the iceberg- is that, in a nation where the Democratic vote had not been respected for over a decade, they want their vote back. They want elections- and they want their vote to be respected, not steamrolled again. This is the opinion held by most of the population of Thailand. That is hardly radical- what is 'radical' is that you see Maoism And Fascism in the same movement, Reds under the Bed, you name it.

The fact that many of the people of Thailand are deeply disgruntled can hardly be considered a surprise, under the circumstances. It would be surprising if they weren't.

You say the democratic vote is not important to them. Their deeds and actions prove otherwise.

Originally Posted by DrB0b

I think it will get much worse.

I believe this as well, Bob. Remnant of the Commie hunts of the early and mid-70s. Of course, one didn't need to be left - anyone that even questioned the beloved authority was sought after.

Originally Posted by Panda

The witch hunt is on. As opposition to the Abhisit/military government grows on two fronts, (overt public protests and covert guerrilla tactics), the government will become more oppressive and brutal. Its a natural progression, but one way to avoid elections I suppose. Thailand moves closer to a Burmese style government every day.

The ruling elite must be quite smug with the turn of events....as they've never cared for {nor promoted} any such ideals of open progressiveness. Call it what you will, it's still comes down to a single authoritarian rule.

Originally Posted by FarangRed

What would they do if Toxin landed in Bangkok today?

Arrest him, of course. I think he has a two year jail conviction.

Up until recently, i think Thaksin should have done just that. Two years is not an eternity, and with 'good behaviour' and all that he wouldn't serve the full term anyway.

But in the current hypercharged atmosphere, I suppose I don't blame him for staying away. You know how the Thai judicial system works- they'd be likely to accuse him of everything from LM, to terrorism, to pederasty. Apparently, the word from on high is that there is absolutely no intention or will to provide amnesty or even lenience to Thaksin, even if it were a positive step towards national reconciliation.

Blimey, he's only one man. He's not the Messiah, in fact he's a very naughty boy. So whatever he's done to upset them... Well, we can't even go into the gossip in this land of intrigue. I would like to see some cure invented for this 'Thaksin on the brain' syndrome, but I'm afraid there is absolutely no evidence of that occurring.

Originally Posted by sabang

This is the opinion held by most of the population of Thailand. That is hardly radical- what is 'radical' is that you see Maoism And Fascism in the same movement, Reds under the Bed, you name it.

you missed the point again. Nothing is black and white, and having element of Maoist and Fascism in the same movement is perfectly possible and what make this movement a mosaic. The Maoism refer to the "peasant revolution" that is being portrayed in the movement, and Fascism is the message of hate that the leaders are channeling.

Originally Posted by sabang

Their deeds and actions prove otherwise.

they think they want "democracy" or think that they want their "vote to count", but in truth deep down they don't. As soon as you scratch the surface and ask the right question, you can see immediately how they loose interest. Have you tried it ? have a serious discussion about Democracy with the peasant and their understanding of it won't go beyond "I want to vote for Thaksin". Basically, they don't understand what it means. Voting is only a very small part of making Democracy functioning, important yes, but not "crucial".

If they could vote for a dictator they would go for it without even understanding the consequence of their act. And that's basically the issue here.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

they think they want "democracy" or think that they vote can't count, but in truth they don't.

Nice of you to tell them what they 'really think' BF. I'm sure they are grateful....

Simple acid test then- give them back their vote, as granted them by the Constitution of Thailand, and then lets see if they respect it.

But, with the exception of the PAD, they have always respected the Democratic vote before- subject to the usual gripes by the losing team, of course. It is the Amat & military that have repeatedly overturned the popular vote, not the People.

Originally Posted by Rural Surin

I believe this as well, Bob. Remnant of the Commie hunts of the early and mid-70s. Of course, one didn't need to be left - anyone that even questioned the beloved authority was sought after.

The commies in the region back in the 70s were quite aggressive, and using the "International manifesto" of overthrowing government through violent means.

We all know how it went well with the Khemer rouge ?

Originally Posted by sabang

Nice of you to tell them what they 'really think' BF. i'm sure they are grateful.

have you tried discussing seriously with one ? I don't think you did beyond the obvious superficial and patronizing argument of "democracy is good".

Originally Posted by sabang

Simple acid test then- give them back their vote, as granted them by the Constitution of Thailand, and then lets see if they respect it.

it's given that they won't, will say it has been manipulated or the government cheated. It was already hinted in speeches and in discussions. They can't accept losing in a Democratic way. The judicial against their party was seen as a coup while it wasn't really, just the court not giving a judgment in their direction.

Originally Posted by sabang

But, with the exception of the PAD, they have always respected the Democratic vote before

before under Thaksin ?

before Thaksin the vote was "paid", plain and simple, so they had to respect the outcome, they sold the vote. How do you think TRT bought all those political parties ? They were financially ruined after the financial disastrous election of 1995 and 1996, Chavalit in particular.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

have you tried discussing seriously with one ? I don't think you did beyond the obvious superficial and patronizing argument of "democracy is good".

I have. The people want their vote back. They are not happy with the current farce. Is that not obvious though?

Originally Posted by Butterfly

before Thaksin the vote was "paid"

Same old, same old bankrupt argument. So a record majority ever in Thai Democratic elections is 'paid for'. Even though the pro-Establishment anti-Thaksin EC found otherwise.

It's the last resort for people who just don't want to see the popular vote in this country, plain and simple. Shameless, and Bankrupt.

So, what do you propose BF? If you wish to eliminate democracy here, which you clearly do, the Constitution will obviously have to be rewritten. Again . Seriously, what do you think will happen if that is tried?

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by Butterfly

They can't accept losing in a Democratic way.

Give me one example of the people of Thailand refusing to accept losing in a Democratic way. Fingers drumming....

Now, lets see if there are any examples of the Amat and military refusing to accept losing in a Democratic well. Well shiver me timbers, there are many.

So, who is being 'Democratically immature'? Who has undermined the Democratic vote?

You are right, but it's a small "d" you want- upper-case denotes the party. The Democrats haven't had their vote undermined- they have had all sorts of assistance, both legal and criminal.

Originally Posted by sabang

Give me one example of the people of Thailand refusing to accept losing in a Democratic way

when the coalition turned after the collapse of the PPP, see UDD

Originally Posted by sabang

So, who is being 'Democratically immature'? Who has undermined the Democratic vote?

honestly, both. The electorate is as guilty as the political leaders.

Originally Posted by sabang

I have.

please substantiate. How far did the discussion go. Sounds very superficial from what I can gather from your arguments here.

Originally Posted by sabang

The people want their vote back.

that's not Democracy, and you need to translate what they are saying: "I want my man back"

Originally Posted by sabang

They are not happy with the current farce.

exactly, they don't accept the "democratic" outcome of the system. See above.

Originally Posted by sabang

Is that not obvious though?

Yes it is perfectly, thanks for proving my point again

Originally Posted by sabang

So, what do you propose BF?

same as we did in 1992, caretaker government lead by the Democrats, suspension of the election, maybe take that time to rewrite the Constitution ? I think 4 years would be a good compromise. In 1992, Thais didn't complain they couldn't vote for 4 years, they all seem quite happy with it actually. So happy that they even sold their votes for 500 THB as soon as the election were back again. Maybe they forgot how precious it was or what it meant.

Originally Posted by sabang

Seriously, what do you think will happen if that is tried?

without the red leaders pumping hate ? not much, the cattle will revert to what they were before, peaceful and docile, eating grass. You can't turn a kwai into a big cat.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

The reds are dangerous "civil unrest" propagators, the government has been too soft over the last 2 years and look how it got paid ? those scums will not rest until they can overthrow a government through violent means so they can put their man in place. It's not Democracy they want, never did.

These are FACTS not an opinion. Look around you, read the International news.

Wrong. What you have stated is a conclusion which ought to be based on facts, not a fact itself.


So now you can go ahead and state the facts on which you based that conclusion - that personal opinion. But I bet you won't, because I doubt that you can do more than parrot so-called 'factoids' from a government whose basic modus operandi is to fabricate and lie.

Once again BF, only someone who does Not want democracy in this country would argue that the cringeworthy process by which the current government was appointed was in any way democratic.

It's the other 'last resort' argument, along with a record electoral majority ever having been 'paid for'.

Originally Posted by sabang

only someone who does Not want democracy in this country would argue that the cringeworthy process by which the current government was appointed was in any way democratic.

then I suggest you read about the topic of Democracy and the 3 pillars that make a democracy. You obviously missed a few civic lesson.

Originally Posted by sabang

It's the other 'last resort' argument, along with a record electoral majority ever having been 'paid for'.

it's an annoying little detail, isn't it ? something that question your whole projection of Democracy in the mind of the locals, isn't it ?

the truth is you never had a serious discussion about it with one, and you won't, because you know very well they will loose face once they exposed their ignorance about the topic.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

when hate message is involved, like the reds are doing through their radio, TV and newspaper, I think it's a government duty to stop them, period. Would it be acceptable if the hate message was targeted towards gays, foreigners, Cambodians ? maybe they are next, and it will also be ok according to some here.

the hate message are against the elite and the power, so it seems "acceptable" and disguised as political free speech, but in truth it's not acceptable. We have a parliament where those kind of debates can be convey, not the streets or community radio promoting violence.

Why is it so hard for some to see that this movement is based on hate, nothing else ?

which is exactly why I compare them to Fascists, it's the same MO.

This is such a transparent argument my friend, almost straight out of Schopenhauer. The way it goes is this.


Fist you state a fact, the government has been shutting down websites.
Then you state an exaggerated or fabricated possible justification for that.
Then you incorporate the fabricated or exaggerated justification into your argument, but as fact rather than fiction, preferably implying that anyone who cannot see the non-existent linkages you create is a fool.


To see the strategy at work, we can create one just like yours:
1. "Of course the US government is right to close down the {mosques/synagogues/temples}
2. They are full of radicals and extremists and are a danger to the nation (note: not a jot of proof or rationale, or perhaps a single example which you then extend to the general case by saying "why there was a case just the other day of a moslem with some marbles in his pocket - definitely intended for a shrapnel bomb).
3. So the government not only should but must shut them down and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.


Voila! The sham argument is complete.


Amateur.

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Even in mature "democracies", those terrorists laws would have been used

'Terrorist' laws do give democratic governments a wide range of discretionary powers if invoked. To many of us, too many.

But do you honestly think, in a parallel situation, that a 'mature' democracy would use these powers to arrest editors, and forcefully shut down media outlets such as radio stations BF? I definitely don't. Or for that matter, do you think there would be this degree of censorship- I think over 5,000 Web sites are blocked now.

If thats your opinion, we'll just have to disagree.

No surprise, the French are the biggest lemmings in the world. Thailand censors everything from porn to websites that point out tourism problems to sites calling for democracy and free speech. The Allies should have made peace with the Nazis and let them keep France. They like that sort of thing.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

the truth is you never had a serious discussion about it with one,

I have had many actually, many. Including with several PAD supporters, I should point out.

The PAD supporters arguments were, frankly, bullshit. Funnily enough, it always came down to those two 'last resort' arguments. Not that I pressed them too hard. Hardly needed to.

The anti-Coup people always expressed resentment over their vote being trampled, always. Be they Isaan peasants or Bangkok professionals. My 'favourite' arguments were from people who were absolutely not Thaksin lovers- quite the opposite- but still resolutely opposed to the military coup, or more recently the Judicial coups. There are a surprising amount of them in the professional echelons of Bangkok, it seems to me.

But of course, at it's most basic, there was "Thaksin, Thaksin, Thaksin" from some folk too.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by sabang

So, what do you propose BF?

same as we did in 1992, caretaker government lead by the Democrats, suspension of the election, maybe take that time to rewrite the Constitution ? I think 4 years would be a good compromise. In 1992, Thais didn't complain they couldn't vote for 4 years, they all seem quite happy with it actually. So happy that they even sold their votes for 500 THB as soon as the election were back again. Maybe they forgot how precious it was or what it meant.

Originally Posted by sabang

Seriously, what do you think will happen if that is tried?

without the red leaders pumping hate ? not much, the cattle will revert to what they were before, peaceful and docile, eating grass. You can't turn a kwai into a big cat.

I think we can all see your approval of the suspension of elections in this very revealing post. I think we can all see your attitude to people you perceive as being less 'civilised' than yourself. Cattle. What was that about democracy again Monsieur lePen?

You can't turn a kwai into a big cat.

You can't turn a frog into a prince either.

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

make the Nazi reference

How ironic....with relatives on the side that were turning on the taps...

Originally Posted by chitown

No surprise, the French are the biggest lemmings in the world.

says the Pro-American Brainwashed Bush supporter