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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    Originally Posted by DaffyDuck Dude, don't worry about him -- typical expat windbag, who excels at not achieving anything, and is envious and bitter to those who actually decide to succeed.


    Maybe you should stick to the best place to get 500thb short-times and let the rest of us discuss expat affairs.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle
    Maybe you should stick to the best place to get 500thb short-times and let the rest of us discuss expat affairs.
    Which thread was that in? Just for academic curiosity, you know.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DaffyDuck
    Dude, don't worry about him -- typical expat windbag, who excels at not achieving anything, and is envious and bitter to those who actually decide to succeed.
    Maybe you should stick to the best place to get 500thb short-times and let the rest of us discuss expat affairs.
    ... which *would* be where to get 500 THB short times, whilst complaining how that's way too much...? (which would be how it goes for you -- or are we going to regaled with some fantasy story how you "don't need this kind of stuff"... right). Can't wait for Nawty to chime in.

    Either way, your response is just so much QED.

    Failsafe seems to be doing pretty well for himself -- whilst you are just jealously and bitterly calling him a criminal every chance you get -- 'envy' is such a lovely emotion, isn't it?

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaffyDuck
    Failsafe seems to be doing pretty well for himself -- whilst you are just jealously and bitterly calling him a criminal every chance you get -- 'envy' is such a lovely emotion, isn't it?
    I've never called him a criminal. And he is doing well for himself - it is called having a discussion, something that seems to be beyond your capabilities.

    Why bother to chip in on these threads when all you have to offer is your petty and tedious personal vendettas?

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Airportwo View Post
    Not interested in getting into the rights and wrongs of real estate ownership, BUT Mr Failsafe you and others like you ruined a place I used to really really like - hope your proud!
    Sorry to have ruined Thailand for you- let's not blame the Thais themselves who are the primary benefactors.
    The really annoying thing is the deals I turned down in the eighties, I thought they were insane asking 150k for large beach-front lots - hindsight, I could be being helpful, kind and benevolent to the poor people now, instead I'm one of them!

  6. #81
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    I can't believe people are still having this stupid argument about buying places here - especially houses.

    Renting is the only way to go. Agree a one or two year lease (two years only if you get a better deal and are sure you'll stay). It's much cheaper, much safer, and simply makes more sense in a country that isn't 'yours', never will be, and doesn't want you.

    If you're married to a Thai, confident enough in your relationship (maybe have kids etc..), and are rich enough that dropping 200,000 or 300,000 USD is not a big deal, then up to you. A discreationary purchase - for everyone else it's a foolish thing (except maybe a condo in your name - again only if a very good deal - not the sillyness that's been out there for the last 8 or 10 years)
    Last edited by Tom Sawyer; 22-03-2010 at 08:40 PM.
    My mind is not for rent to any God or Government, There's no hope for your discontent - the changes are permanent!

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle
    No, it's still illegal. You are just circumventing the Thai law .
    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle
    I've never called him a criminal.




    :banhim1:

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    As far as the 30-30-30 deal, I still believe it would hold up
    It wouldn't, but then you have vested interests in believing so and telling others it would.
    Yes I suspect he does too. It's sort of a Thai Visa redux isn't it. Except DD isn't slapping down people like us cause there's no property advertising yet..

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    As far as the 30-30-30 deal, I still believe it would hold up
    It wouldn't, but then you have vested interests in believing so and telling others it would.
    Yes I suspect he does too. It's sort of a Thai Visa redux isn't it. Except DD isn't slapping down people like us cause there's no property advertising yet..
    You've given your opinion, which you're perfectly entitled to do- now your calling me a liar (read my earlier posts- I have no particular interest in leases- I think they are a poor option compared to buying under a company)- my point was that I believe it's possible to set up a lease in a more secure fashion than is currently used- if you don't like what I have to say, fine, but don't extend that to a questioning of my character.

    I would never advertise on this site as I don't care to share my personal information with you or many others here (and, frankly, when it comes to real estate I don't "advertise"- I do business with people I know already) due your your feelings (and expressions) of animosity and rancor.
    There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
    HST

  10. #85
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    ^
    I never called you a liar. But can I call you one anyway? You know, just to piss you off?

    If you think that forming a company is a smart investment to buy a residential property in Thailand then you're not a liar, you're a mental midget who hasn't done his homework - and some equally small-brainer has managed to yack-yack to in order to get some kind of commission. This DOES NOT COUNT for many who did this eight or ten years ago when it was all safe to do so - it's NOT NOW.

    So now then wiseguy - look again at what I wrote.

    Leases are for 30 years. Not 60, not 90. SO WHY WOULD ANYONE DO THAT?

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    ^
    I never called you a liar. But can I call you one anyway? You know, just to piss you off?

    If you think that forming a company is a smart investment to buy a residential property in Thailand then you're not a liar, you're a mental midget who hasn't done his homework - and some equally small-brainer has managed to yack-yack to in order to get some kind of commission. This DOES NOT COUNT for many who did this eight or ten years ago when it was all safe to do so - it's NOT NOW.

    So now then wiseguy - look again at what I wrote.

    Leases are for 30 years. Not 60, not 90. SO WHY WOULD ANYONE DO THAT?
    You're making yourself look foolish.

    I already said in posts #63, #85, and now again here that I would not recommend a lease- I would not enter into one as a buyer or a seller- if, however, someone I knew was determined to enter into one against my advice, I believe- through proper registration via "real rights" rather than "personal rights" (I realize you have no idea what that means and have probably never seen an actual chanote deed, but 'having no idea' is obviously not something new to you)- that it would be possible to make the agreement much more secure over a period extending past 30 years than the way that leases are generally set up at the moment- I agree that there's a real chance that the lease would be nullified after the first 30 years, but I don't think it's impossible (and neither does my lawyer)- did you understand that? Do you want me to post it three more times? I said I had no vested interests in leases, and I meant it- you said you believed otherwise- that's calling me a liar- get it?

    BTW- I've been doing this for 10 years- most of my current investments have been in my possession for more than five years- I've done very well for myself over that time (better than most other foreigners I know that live in Thailand- I don't say that to brag- it's a fact)- can you imagine if I wasn't a 'mental midget' but rather a 'towering intellect' like you how much better I could have done?

    My "small-brainer" wife managed to "yack-yack" her way into a 700K commission yesterday (after three days work)- how did you do in that same time period?

    You're just another guy here who is full of talk and bullshit who has no experience to back up what he says- I realize this means a lot to you as you need a way to feel important, so, by all means, keep talking- it's really, really enlightening.

  12. #87
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    I am with FS on real estate here.....of course the same goes for everything as elsewhere...location location etc.

    I am not with him re the 30+30+30 lease thingy. You will not get more than 30 years and regardless of any personal or written agreement with the owner for the further 30...he is not obliged to honour it when the time comes around. Simple as that.
    I like poisoning my neighbours dogs till they die cos I'm a cnut

  13. #88
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    Property is still red hot in Bangkok

    I think LPN just announced that 2 projects with about 3,000 units have been sold under 3 hours this last saturday

    can you believe this ? 3,000 units in 3 hours ? Thai have nowhere to park their savings, so they keep buying and buying

    B4.7bn in 3 hours

    PROPERTY: Listed condominium developer LPN Development Plc closed sales of its two condominium projects consisting of 2,700 units worth 4.7 billion baht within three hours on Saturday.

    The two projects are the Lumpini Place Ratchayothin and Lumpini Place Rama 4-Kluay Namthai, both in Bangkok.

    LPN shares closed yesterday on the Stock Exchange of Thailand at 7.20 baht, unchanged, in total trade of 113.86 million baht.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nawty View Post
    I am with FS on real estate here.....of course the same goes for everything as elsewhere...location location etc.

    I am not with him re the 30+30+30 lease thingy. You will not get more than 30 years and regardless of any personal or written agreement with the owner for the further 30...he is not obliged to honour it when the time comes around. Simple as that.
    This is really the last time I'm going to post it- I'm not talking about a personal agreement with the owner- if the lease is attached to the chanote rather than in a separate agreement between the owner and lessee it is considered a "real right" (rather than a "personal right" which is an agreement between lessor/lessee apart from the chanote and would die with the owner- basically it's a 'promise' which is difficult or impossible to enforce)- it would follow the chanote (and basically takes the owner out of it) irrespective of whether it is sold or inherited after the owner's death (most owners would not agree to this as it essentially gives up all their rights to do anything with the land, including taking a loan out on it- a 'promise' is much more beneficial for them)- it would essentially amount to full ownership for the lessee.

    It would basically be attached in the same way as a bank lien (which is also attached to the chanote- transferal of ownership does not change that).

    Is this a 100% written-in-stone guarantee? I wouldn't bet the ranch on it, but it's certainly a better deal (for the lessee) than the current set-up.

    You may well be correct in your assessment- if you're going to disagree with me, though, at least challenge the actual point I'm making.

    And (for the fourth time) I would never enter into or recommend a lease in any case (for a home, at any rate- a lease can be an excellent deal for a business).
    Last edited by FailSafe; 24-03-2010 at 08:44 AM.

  15. #90
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    How can you attach a further 30 year lease to the chanote when you cannot legally get more than 30 years to start with. It would be laughed out of court and most probably the land office to start with where you would have to try to register it on the title.

    Hell will freeze over before.

  16. #91
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    the asking prices are a joke in many cases lol
    and discounts of 10-20% is even a bigger joke, housing market did not collapse in holland and even here the prices are down 10%.
    A collapse in thai property market is a must maybe the prices will be more realistic. If you buy land and build your own house,you can build a palace for 30 milion, and you don't even own the house legally

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nawty View Post
    How can you attach a further 30 year lease to the chanote when you cannot legally get more than 30 years to start with. It would be laughed out of court and most probably the land office to start with where you would have to try to register it on the title.

    Hell will freeze over before.
    Again, as I've posted earlier in this thread, Thai real estate law does indeed allow for a 30-year extension past the initial lease period of 30-years- this is a pretty well-known clause, and it's something that you should be familiar with already if you're going to comment on the subject.

    Here it is again (with the relevant passage in bold):

    Section 540: 'The duration of a hire of immovable property cannot exceed thirty years. If it is made for a longer period, such period shall be reduced to thirty years. The aforesaid period may be renewed, but it must not exceed thirty years from the time of renewal'.

    It may not be possible to extend it to 90-years, but, again, it actually may be possible- it has not yet been tested in court, and for you to say out-of-hand that it would be thrown out (when my own attorney who knows I'm just asking out of curiosity and am not interested in a lease also says he believes it may be possible) is just posturing- it's what you believe, not what you know for a fact.

  18. #93
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    ^^you can own the house legally.

    If you are going to wait for the crash....you will be waiting for a very very long time.

    Take a look at 2 recent history lessons here.

    97/98 crash....while some property certainly went out the door cheap...I spoke to a very long time real estate agent in Bkk once, he was Thai, he said that in 98 he had houses in Sukhumvit with pools that he could not rent out for 10k a month. But he did NOT have those same properties for sale that he could sell for chips.

    2009...look at the world wide catastrophy and look at Thai prices then and now.

    The prices rarely tend to go down, sure some individuals with problems may need to sell quick and accept whatever, but this is not the general rule across the whole market.

    Prices do stay flat and may stay flat for awhile, but I have not seen them go backwards during all of the problems in this country over the past 12 years.
    Last edited by Nawty; 24-03-2010 at 09:26 AM.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    The aforesaid period may be renewed
    MAY be renewed...this is not a given at all by any such means or wording.

    Of course it may be renewed, anything may be renewed, it also may be renewed for a further 30 years making 90 years all up if you signed it as a toddler, but it does not change the fact that only 30 years is allowable by law. The MAY be extra renewal is up to the owner and he/she can decline it and is her/his right because the law allows for no more than 30 years at a time.

    I believe you are reading this wrong.

    Anyway, I have a new way of continuing a lease for past the 30 years. I also have a copy of a royal household lease document for a property in Phuket which covers it.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    if the lease is attached to the chanote rather than in a separate agreement between the owner and lessee it is considered a "real right"
    All leases, in order to be valid for over three years have to be registered at the land office.

    When you do this, they become tied to the land title document, and listed on the back.

    However, the land office will not allow any more than 30 years. They will allow an option to renew at the end of the 30 years.



    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    a "personal right" which is an agreement between lessor/lessee apart from the chanote and would die with the owner
    If you are talking about an agreement that is not registered at the land office then this cannot even be for thirty years. It will only be enforceable up to three years.

    You need to register at the land office to get the 30, and then you get the option to renew.

    An option, not a solid renewal agreement as these are not allowed under Thai law and the land office will not register it in the first place, it's and option, and it is not enforceable by the lease holder. It is at the whim of the landlord whether to agree or not.



    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    I would never advertise on this site
    I feel this is true, not because you don't want to though.

    I think the real reason would be more like the owner would not have you, as you are spreading disinformation about the Thai land ownership laws in Thailand.
    Originally Posted by Smeg
    ... I like to fantasise sometimes, and I lie very occasionally... my superior home, job, wealth, freedom, car, girl, retirement age, appearance, satisfaction with birth country etc etc... Over the past few years I have put together over 100 pages on notes on thaiophilia...

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nawty View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    The aforesaid period may be renewed
    MAY be renewed...this is not a given at all by any such means or wording.

    Of course it may be renewed, anything may be renewed, it also may be renewed for a further 30 years making 90 years all up if you signed it as a toddler, but it does not change the fact that only 30 years is allowable by law. The MAY be extra renewal is up to the owner and he/she can decline it and is her/his right because the law allows for no more than 30 years at a time.

    I believe you are reading this wrong.

    Anyway, I have a new way of continuing a lease for past the 30 years. I also have a copy of a royal household lease document for a property in Phuket which covers it.
    I'm not reading it incorrectly- the lease extension can be added to the lease itself when it is initially signed- it does not have to be done only when the first lease period itself expires.

    The owner cannot decline it at his or her right- the promise is legally binding for the individual- an heir or subsequent buyer can refuse it, and that's the problem.

    Also, do you understand the point of signing for 90 years (if such a thing turns out to be possible)? It has nothing to do with you signing as a 'toddler' or living to the conclusion of the lease- it has to do with maintaining value in your home and slow the depreciation of it (which is the main problem with a lease- your home is worth less as the years go by) in case you want to sell (transfer) the lease to someone else.

  22. #97
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    couldn't agree more Thaiguy, average price one million dollars\

    are they out of their FKN mind?!?!

    greedy shortsighted little buggers are living in rip-off fantasy land! They should be able to situate themselves in reality and charge real prices for their real estate.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    I'm not reading it incorrectly
    Yes you are, and you should stop.


    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    the lease extension can be added to the lease itself when it is initially signed
    True, but the land office won't register it. If they do, by mistake, the landlord can go to court at the end of the 30 years to contest it and, you lose.



    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    The owner cannot decline it at his or her right- the promise is legally binding for the individual
    This is simply not true and you should refrain, immediately, from repeating it.


    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    Also, do you understand the point of signing for 90 years
    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    it has to do with maintaining value in your home and slow the depreciation of it
    This is the speil of dodgy farangs who are involved in real estate here, if you hear it, start running!

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    I can't believe people are still having this stupid argument about buying places here - especially houses.

    Renting is the only way to go. Agree a one or two year lease (two years only if you get a better deal and are sure you'll stay). It's much cheaper, much safer, and simply makes more sense in a country that isn't 'yours', never will be, and doesn't want you.

    If you're married to a Thai, confident enough in your relationship (maybe have kids etc..), and are rich enough that dropping 200,000 or 300,000 USD is not a big deal, then up to you. A discreationary purchase - for everyone else it's a foolish thing (except maybe a condo in your name - again only if a very good deal - not the sillyness that's been out there for the last 8 or 10 years)
    That's about the only purpose of buying real estate here; to provide for a younger wife after your death. I agree with you, it's quite silly to buy here for many reasons especially the fact that foreigners cannot own land. Just the scams alone are enough reason not to risk everything you've got on a condo which may never be built, may be sold to several persons or which may have some contractors claim arise after completion and cause you to be thrown out. I'm no fan of the western legal systems but at least (unlike Thailand) the rules and laws are predictable and it matters little who you are. Your chances in Court here against a connected Thai are about zero.
    Also, if you buy and get neighbors from hell, your're screwed here. I think the people who banter on about buying here must sell real estate and have a monetary incentive for their opinions.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    if the lease is attached to the chanote rather than in a separate agreement between the owner and lessee it is considered a "real right"
    All leases, in order to be valid for over three years have to be registered at the land office.

    When you do this, they become tied to the land title document, and listed on the back.

    However, the land office will not allow any more than 30 years. They will allow an option to renew at the end of the 30 years.



    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    a "personal right" which is an agreement between lessor/lessee apart from the chanote and would die with the owner
    If you are talking about an agreement that is not registered at the land office then this cannot even be for thirty years. It will only be enforceable up to three years.

    You need to register at the land office to get the 30, and then you get the option to renew.

    An option, not a solid renewal agreement as these are not allowed under Thai law and the land office will not register it in the first place, it's and option, and it is not enforceable by the lease holder. It is at the whim of the landlord whether to agree or not.



    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    I would never advertise on this site
    I feel this is true, not because you don't want to though.

    I think the real reason would be more like the owner would not have you, as you are spreading disinformation about the Thai land ownership laws in Thailand.
    Please show me where I have claimed anything I have said in this thread is anything but my opinion and not given others the nod that they might be correct? I've fully admitted I may be incorrect and have stated what I believe- do you have a problem with that? Too bad.

    If the option to renew is attached to the chanote, it's not an 'option' dependent on the landlord's agreement- I can see the point that you're not getting (again, like I've said numerous times in this thread, I may be wrong, but I may be right).

    Here is the clause I'm referring to- as you can see, 'real rights' follow the chanote, and it doesn't matter what the owner does (it is certainly not up to the "whim" of the landlord)- it may be possible to get this passed through the land office, and once it's attached to the chanote it's legally binding:

    Section 564: 'A contract of hire is extinguished at the end of the agreed period without notice'.
    The lease may be renewed, however, a promise in the current lease to renew the lease is generally a personal right (i.e. it follows the parties to the agreement and not the land).
    Registered and personal rights
    In lease or leasehold agreements (or structured agreements) it is important to distinguish real rights (or real lease rights) from personal rights (non-lease rights). Real rights are attached to the real property rather than a person and are enforceable against third parties (e.g. transferee owners). Real lease rights follow the title of the property rather than the person. If the owner of the property dies, or transfers ownership of the property during the lease, the property transfers including the real rights it is burdened with. Personal Rights will generally not follow the title to the property but the person. If the person dies a personal right or obligation dies with him. Personal rights and obligations are contractual promises relating to the property between the parties signing to the lease agreement only (e.g. under present law a promise to renew the lease).

    As far as "advertising" goes, real estate is not my main business- I do it as a sideline- I have very little on hand at any given time- I've never advertised real estate ever, and have always done business by word-of-mouth- as I've already stated, due to potentially untrustworthy, jealous pricks that may exist on TD, I would never open myself up to the potential problems that could arise by doing business here.
    Last edited by FailSafe; 24-03-2010 at 10:30 AM. Reason: content added

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