Thread: State Of Emergency declared in Bangkok

Originally Posted by Texpat

^

In Thai society, ...

These people are living in a fantasy world. Reality is suspended. When they've been forced to unconditionally deny truth and twist logic to remain out of jail, they'll never get it.

Well said Tex, just about sums it all up to be honest, at the end of the day it will all just be the same old fantasy.

Originally Posted by chinthee

BBC ran a debate this morning between two articulate Thais, one supporting the Dems, and another on the PPP.

Correction. That was Veronica Pedroza's debate and interview. She is now with Aljazeera, after being with CNN for years. So, you can find that rerun on Aljazeera network.

Originally Posted by DrAndy

you are a difficult guy to insult accept the truth

In a sentence we can comprehend please.

Originally Posted by DrAndy

yes, I am realy (sic) stupid

At least you're honest.

I was having a meal with a few Thais from chonabot who were talking about their support for the PAD.
I said if the PAD gets power you will not have a vote. They said never mind the PAD will do the right thing for the country.
I said hey you are Thai, why do you want to be classed like me a foreigner with no right to vote for your country.
They didn't like this idea!
How could they be classed like foreigners!
No we are Thai we can vote........
Short conversation, politics is best left alone at the dinner table.

^^^ Exactly DrBOb,

Especially with the growth of the "middle class" here people that before never thought it was their place to voice their opinion are doing so now.

I expect the PAD have been spreading the word also in these cut and dried impressionable voting communities about their power and to vote correctly and without financial influencing.

Power to the little people! Right or wrong they are now taking a stance and both parties will be concerned about losing control of this former political weapon!

So...where do the democrats stand in this situation? They are the traditional party of the ruling Bangkok class, no?

They want to win by the ballot box!?

Originally Posted by EmperorTud

Providing things like that may be a function of the Government in our Western countries but it certainly wasn't in Thailand, until Thaksinomics came along.

You make it sound like Thaksin did it out of the goodness of his heart. He was buying votes, one way or another, pure and simple. You know it and I know it. He doesn't give a toss about the lower classes..

I should add it also fits with the whole idea of contempt for the poor, which is of course partly the notion that they should not have the right to vote as they are too uneducated.

Which of course raises the question of how educated do you need to be to vote...

They must only vote because these politicians are offering them incentives to vote!

Isn't that what political parties are supposed to do to get elected?

The locals here have deified Toxin to levels that made some very uncomfortable in Bangkok.

Why?

Because he improved roads, built schools, and gave the citizens a voice. My wife claims the locals here had never had that feeling of empowerment before. And that's why they loved Toxin.

You can't put the genie back in the bottle. They've realized they're not just farmers or shopkeepers, but citizens -- with a vote.

Unless PAD seeks to scrap completely any ideas of democratically-free elections, they might as well pack up and move to Beijing or London or Los Angeles.

They're faced with

1. ruling a declining, sick, country with a iron fist
or
2. working hard and getting elected and serving the people rather than themselves.

The circus is even more entertaining every time I hear the word Democracy out of these idiot's mouths.

Originally Posted by chinthee

You make it sound like Thaksin did it out of the goodness of his heart.

He was doing it because he was clever enough to realise that with the rural poor vote he would have a mandate to run the country.

Toxin bought votes, vastly and grossly enriched himself and his family in the process whilst consolidating power, and oh, incidentally, gave some crumbs to the poor Isaan folks. Come on.

Originally Posted by Loy Toy

Exactly DrBOb,

Especially with the growth of the "middle class" here people that before never thought it was their place to voice their opinion are doing so now.

I expect the PAD have been spreading the word also in these cut and dried impressionable voting communities about their power and to vote correctly and without financial influencing.

Power to the little people!

Agree totally. Every country that's achieved a worthwhile democracy has had to struggle for it, and then had to struggle to maintain it. Of all the available practical political systems democracy is the only one we've seen so far in which the ordinary people can enjoy some sense of safety, security, and respect. Democracy nurtures and encourages political participation and should be proud that the people at the bottom of the heap are trying to take advantage of the freedoms and opportunities democracy offers. That, after all, is what it's all about. Democracy allows dissent, up to a point, that point being where dissent threatens to destroy the fabric of society. People may misuse their votes, they may vote the "wrong" way or for the "wrong" reasons but then that's the essence of democracy, the freedom to be right or wrong rests with people. Attempting to force Thailand back to the system it "enjoyed" before 1932, even attempting (and in some cases succeeding in) to undo the reforms of Rama V, is not a positive step by any sane light. The leaders of 1932 (must check the date but I mean those who overthrew the absolute monarchy) are still seen as heroes in school history books, (even though the surviving leaders were eventually routed out and exiled by the newly strengthening monarchy of the 50's and 60's) yet If they were still around today I have no doubt they'd be slung into jail for lese-majeste or ripped into bloody shreds by PAD mobs.

Originally Posted by Texpat

PAD seeks to scrap completely any ideas of democratically-free elections

That would make a good headline!

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Of all the available practical political systems democracy is the only one we've seen so far in which the ordinary people can enjoy some sense of safety, security, and respect.

Not where you can easily dismantle, cut, copy and paste a constitution to achieve political goals. To true lasting republics and democracies worldwide, constitutions are held sacrosanct, only amended by bloodletting.

How can you call a democracy worthwhile, when Samak can cut and paste, eradicate any wrongdoing by Toxin and have him return to claim his ill-gotten fortune in a few years?

*And assume command once again with an iron fist.

Originally Posted by chinthee

Toxin bought votes, vastly and grossly enriched himself and his family in the process whilst consolidating power, and oh, incidentally, gave some crumbs to the poor Isaan folks. Come on.

This canard has been trotted out again and again. There is no doubt votes were bought, there is also no doubt not enough were bought this time to make any difference. The last two elections were the cleanest annd most transparent in the history of Thailand. Every time somebody on this forum has trotted out this convenient bit of mythology 've asked them for proof that this has happened to such an extent that it affected the outcome of the general election, nobody can provide that evidence, just hearsay and "common sense". The results of the last election were watched and examined by groups all over the world, the coup and it's aftermath were of great interest internationally and focused the attention of the world on Thailand like never before, and by groups within Thailand itself, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of widespread vote-buying, quite the opposite. This accusation is forever on the lips of the anti-government groups and is just another way of saying the people are too stupid and greedy to be trusted. The fact that vote-buying didn't work scared the living daylights out of the people behind the PAD as it showed them that, for all their wealth, they could no longer buy the people.

Originally Posted by chinthee

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Of all the available practical political systems democracy is the only one we've seen so far in which the ordinary people can enjoy some sense of safety, security, and respect.

Not where you can easily dismantle, cut, copy and paste a constitution to achieve political goals. To true lasting republics and democracies worldwide, constitutions are held sacrosanct, only amended by bloodletting.

How can you call a democracy worthwhile, when Samak can cut and paste, eradicate any wrongdoing by Toxin and have him return to claim his ill-gotten fortune in a few years?

*And assume command once again with an iron fist.

Where do you get the bloodletting from? The constitution of my country has been amended many times, always by referendum. Are you seriously telling me that each amendment to the US constitution came about by violence? As for thaksin returning in a few years, maybe, but that's a prophecy, nothing more, there is no possible way you or anybody else can say he will come back and resume command with an iron fist (that's just scaremongering) but we do know, because they've told us, that the PAD backers will rule with an iron fist. No rational person would want to see a country thrust into dictatorship based on what "might" happen. Tell me how many cuts and pastes Samak has done and how this justifies undoing 75 years of, slow and painful admittedly, political progress. Do you seriously think that when a democracy has problems the only solution is to replace it by a dictatorship?

^Constitutional amendments are a serious business, sometimes impossible to achieve, especially in places like America, where luckily, the constitution is a work of art.

I think you saw how easily the constitution was reformed here before.

^doesn't answer my question about where you got the idea that constitutions were so sacred they can only be amended by bloodletting. There are 27 amendments to the US constitution, that leads me to think that amendments are hardly impossible to achieve nor that they're not achievable without bloodshed.

Originally Posted by chinthee

Originally Posted by chinthee

BBC ran a debate this morning between two articulate Thais, one supporting the Dems, and another on the PPP.

Correction. That was Veronica Pedroza's debate and interview. She is now with Aljazeera, after being with CNN for years. So, you can find that rerun on Aljazeera network.

Al Jazeera English - News

Worth a look..

Originally Posted by DrB0b

doesn't answer my question about where you got the idea that constitutions were so sacred they can only be amended by bloodletting.

Bob, I was speaking figuratively. I will be more careful in the future, because I realize not all of you have studied US constitutional law. The US constitution is nigh on impossible to amend at this point, because it was framed properly in the beginning, and most of the amendments were done early on, and were well thought out.

The Thai constitution is play doh to be molded at will by the current administration.

Originally Posted by DrB0b

nor that they're not achievable without bloodshed.

Except for the wee one related to abolishing slavery.

Originally Posted by chinthee

Toxin bought votes, vastly and grossly enriched himself and his family in the process whilst consolidating power, and oh, incidentally, gave some crumbs to the poor Isaan folks. Come on.

There are more people in Thailand than just the Isaan people. I never thought of you as politically naive before but your last few posts have been ridiculously simplistic and emotive, very little to do with the political facts or reality.