Thread: Navy Duped Into Buying Subs With No Engines

China has offered two used Song-class submarines to the Royal Thai Navy (RTN), but they need to be reconditioned before they can become operable, according to the RTN.


A Chinese state enterprise in charge of managing decommissioned Chinese submarines reportedly approached the Thai military attaché in Beijing, offering to deliver the submarines to Thailand, but they did not specify whether the submarines were to be provided free of charge or whether there will a token charge as a gesture of friendship.


The matter had been raised by China with a working committee of Deputy Prime Minister Prawit Wongsuwan, but there has been no confirmation.


RTN Commander-in-Chief Admiral Somprasong Nilsamai was to propose China’s offer to RTN Chief-of-Staff Admiral Talerngsak Sirisawat, who is in charge of the RTN’s submarine procurement project.


In order to proceed with further talks with the Chinese state company, more details about the reported offer are necessary. The RTN expects the two decommissioned submarines to be donated to Thailand.


Previously, China donated two decommissioned Ming-class submarines to Myanmar.


China offers two decommissioned Song-class submarines to Royal Thai Navy | Thai PBS World : The latest Thai news in English, News Headlines, World News and News Broadcasts in both Thai and English. We bring Thailand to the world

Well, they're going for a Song.

China Offers Thai Navy Two Subs As Purchase Deal Hits Snag

Navy chief Adm Somprasong Nilsamai on Sunday confirmed that China made an informal offer to provide the Thai navy with two used submarines to train staff while waiting for the first of its order of Chinese-made submarines to be delivered.


Adm Somprasong, however, declined to comment further on the issue.


A source in the navy told the media that the offer was made because China has encountered problems in attempting to purchase a submarine engine from MTU in Germany for the S26T Yuan-class submarine being assembled in Wuhan for the Thai navy.


Aside from the good relations between Thailand and China, the secondhand submarine offer was made partly because the German supplier of submarine engines refused to sell one to China after learning that it would use the engine for assembling a new submarine for sale to another country.


As negotiations continue, the delivery, previously scheduled for September next year, may have to be postponed until April 2024.


Deputy Prime Minister Gen Prawit Wongsuwan initiated the purchase when he was defence minister, although when asked about the latest development on Sunday, would not disclose any more details, other than to remark that “I am hoping for good news”.


Meanwhile, Adm Tharoengsak Sirisawat, navy chief of staff, will set up a panel to consider the viability of taking on the vessels’ maintenance costs.

China Offers Thai Navy Two Subs As Purchase Deal Hits Snag | Chiang Mai News - Daily News Stories From Chiang Mai & Thailand

The germans haven't refused to sell parts to chinkystan because they are selling them on, but because the chinkies use them for military purposes.

More like the engines previously sold to China have been engineered to fail in the heat of battle 55

Second hand Chinese built submarines, what could possibly go wrong?

Originally Posted by Headworx

Chinese built submarines, what could possibly go wrong?

None have crashed into "undersea mountains", yet. Unlike the exceptional navies, sub.

Originally Posted by OhOh

None have crashed into "undersea mountains", yet. Unlike the exceptional navies, sub.

How do you know?

Do you think the chinkies would tell us?

A Pheu Thai Party MP claims there are irregularities in the navy’s controversial submarine procurement programme, adding the military branch is being duped into buying vessels with no engines.


Yutthapong Charasathian, deputy Pheu Thai Party leader and MP for Maha Sarakham, yesterday during a weekly press briefing at party headquarters took aim at the navy’s plan to buy three submarines from China.

The first submarine was already bought for 13.5 billion baht and is due for delivery next year.


However, the procurement of two other submarines, valued at 22.5 billion baht, is still in limbo and could be put on hold due to financial constraints caused by the COVID-19 pandemic, according to a source in the navy.


Mr Charasathian claimed China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co (CSOC), which signed the submarine contract with the navy, does not represent the Chinese government.


The CSOC is a private company, which means the submarine contract that the navy signed with the CSOC was not a government-to-government deal, he said.


Mr Charasathian said there is also a project to construct a submarine base in two phases worth about 1.85 billion baht.


Mr Charasathian also said the company sent four personnel to Thailand to work on the submarine base construction project, but it turned out they applied for work permits to teach the Chinese language.


“Did they dupe the government and the navy?” he said.


He also claimed that the first submarine, due for delivery, has no engines because China cannot manufacture diesel engines for submarines and will have to buy them from Germany.


Under the CSOC contract, the submarine must be powered by engines supplied by Germany’s MTU, but the company refused to sell the engine to China, Mr Charasathian alleged.


He said he had received information that the CSOC will replace Germany’s engine with a Chinese-made engine for the submarine instead.


Mr Charasathian said he will bring the matter to the attention of Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha, and ask him to stop any move to replace the engine type stipulated in the contract.


The change could lead to a glitch in the submarine, putting naval officers at risk, Mr Charasathian said.


Navy 'Duped Into Buying Subs With No Engines' | Chiang Mai News - Daily News Stories From Chiang Mai & Thailand

Originally Posted by misskit

Mr Charasathian also said the company sent four personnel to Thailand to work on the submarine base construction project, but it turned out they applied for work permits to teach the Chinese language.

Originally Posted by misskit

A Pheu Thai Party MP claims there are irregularities in the navy’s controversial submarine procurement programme, adding the military branch is being duped into buying vessels with no engines.

Originally Posted by misskit

He also claimed that the first submarine, due for delivery, has no engines because China cannot manufacture diesel engines for submarines and will have to buy them from Germany.

Something smells wrong here

Originally Posted by misskit

Under the CSOC contract, the submarine must be powered by engines supplied by Germany’s MTU, but the company refused to sell the engine to China, Mr Charasathian alleged.

Oh i see

Originally Posted by misskit

He said he had received information that the CSOC will replace Germany’s engine with a Chinese-made engine for the submarine instead.

But but..................

Originally Posted by misskit

He also claimed that the first submarine, due for delivery, has no engines because China cannot manufacture diesel engines for submarines and will have to buy them from Germany.

Originally Posted by misskit

Mr Charasathian said he will bring the matter to the attention of Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha

Well lets hope he can see through all this

Originally Posted by misskit

The change could lead to a glitch in the submarine, putting naval officers at risk, Mr Charasathian said.

Glitches are the enemy of every submarine. But what about the ratings?

It’s like some comedy spoof.

Originally Posted by misskit

It’s like some comedy spoof.

There is a lots bad going on atm but you can always count on Thai bureaucracy to lighten the mood. The thing is you just know that if you repeated that lot back to them they wouldn't see anything wrong with it.

I bet they've already spent the skim as well.

Priceless

TiT. Anyway, there is an endless supply of Burmese peasants to provide pedal power- and it sure bets being a slave on a Thai fishing boat.

What else did anyone expect from a lumpen peasant society exploited by a medieval corruptocracy?

Originally Posted by misskit

It’s like some comedy spoof.

No it is more likely the Thais didn't read the details of the contract but the Chinese did. Probably doesn't state "with engines" in the contract.

According to some random internet sources, the Type 39/41 Chinese subs have AIP or Air Independent Propulsion, which probably means it's powered by a combination Stirling/Electric system. The Chinese probably don't want to sell this technology to the Thais, so the S20 sub series (the export version of the Type 39/41 subs) will need some sort of more conventional (Diesel/Electric) engines.

This also means that the subs will be very unstealthy when operating in shallow waters, like the Gulf of Thailand!

The average depth of the Gulf is 45m. Th optimum operating depth of a submarine is around 250 -300m.

I rather think even the stupidest naval procurement agency would question the need for such a boat.

But then, I reckon we all know what the primary purpose of this stupid deal is.

Move to proper thread Kit.
Show us your impulse buy

Originally Posted by misskit

A Pheu Thai Party MP claims there are irregularities in the navy’s controversial submarine procurement programme, adding the military branch is being duped into buying vessels with no engines.



Mr Charasathian also said the company sent four personnel to Thailand to work on the submarine base construction project, but it turned out they applied for work permits to teach the Chinese language.


He also claimed that the first submarine, due for delivery, has no engines because China cannot manufacture diesel engines for submarines and will have to buy them from Germany.


Under the CSOC contract, the submarine must be powered by engines supplied by Germany’s MTU, but the company refused to sell the engine to China, Mr Charasathian alleged.


He said he had received information that the CSOC will replace Germany’s engine with a Chinese-made engine for the submarine instead.

Can you imagine the state of this Chinese-made "submarine" when it finally arrives?

I think its a prudent purchase ahead of the 45 year programme to dredge the gulf.

China Told It Must Honour Submarine Deal

The Royal Thai Navy insists China has to honour an agreement to supply it with a new submarine with a German-made MTU 396 engine, adding the navy will do its best to ensure the procurement is completed.


Since the navy had already insisted the agreement to purchase the S26T Yuan-class submarine being built in China be fulfilled, the rest is China’s responsibility, Adm Tharoengsak Sirisawat, the navy chief of staff, said yesterday.


He said China needs to obtain the exact submarine engine type as stated in the procurement agreement.


Adm Sirisawat was responding to renewed criticism by the opposition against the navy’s submarine purchase after MTU, the German maker of the submarine engine, reportedly refused to sell it to China after learning the engine would be used for a new submarine being sold to a third country.


Asked whether the navy would ever agree to China using a Chinese-made engine instead, he said the navy had stated it must be an MTU 396 engine.


And when asked if the navy would demand a fine be paid or even terminate the agreement in the event China cannot fulfil the terms, Adm Sirisawat said everything was clearly stated in the contract, and the situation was still rectifiable.


However, when pressed on whether it would be possible for the navy to terminate the contract over this matter, Adm Sirisawat said time would tell. If necessary, both the Thai and Chinese sides would have to first discuss how they will resolve the problem, he said.


“Does the navy really want to have a new submarine? Yes, of course. But what kind of submarine do we want? The answer is it must be the one stated in the contract signed by both sides,” he added.


The navy will try its best to ensure the agreement is honoured because a new submarine is needed as part of the navy’s security strategy for the country, he said when asked what the navy would do if China keeps postponing delivery.

China Told It Must Honour Submarine Deal | Chiang Mai News - Daily News Stories From Chiang Mai & Thailand

Good luck getting the Chinese to accede to your wishes Thailand.