^ Can't green you but you made very good points. The bank should be liable as the fraudulent activities were performed by its' employee (s) in its premises, using the Bank resources.
^ Can't green you but you made very good points. The bank should be liable as the fraudulent activities were performed by its' employee (s) in its premises, using the Bank resources.
3.5% / month.
not laying all the blame with them, but these guys are definitely rubes.
No . In the UK I would not simply write it off . But Thailand is different in a thousand ways . You know that Laws are applied differently to fallangs . You know that . EVERYONE knows that ! It's wrong but it's also true . So the Thais in authority here will certainly look for a way not to pay out .
YOU asked about a cashier looting your account . But that is not what happened here . False Accounts were set up . The money was never in the possession of Kasikorn . The method used was crude and it all stinks but its more like being stopped by a fake Police Officer using a stolen ID Card and a stolen Police car . Everything looks genuine . But its not . Someone can steal YOUR identity jabir and steal your mail with Letterheads and everything ! Then take out a Mortgage in your name . Disappear with the cash . This happens every single day .
Operating from his Office was another layer of fraud - but HE committed the Fraud . Not Kasikorn .
Bernie Madoff said people could only join his Scheme by invitation . It was all to be private and secretive . ( Not his genuine trading .... the Ponzi which he operated from a separate set of offices ) . Similarly this Thai guy told people the whole thing was not to be advertised around . People LIKE that ! They like being in a privileged circle of investors . And it makes it all so much easier for the Operator of the scam .
I have no affection for Kasikorn . But Kasikorn will also suffer from this . And Kasikorn did not operate the scam . If I employ you jabir and you sit in my office and scam someone then its YOU that goes to jail and gets ordered to pay compensation . Not me . I just fire you and punch you in the face on your way out for all the damage you did to my name .
^^
I wonder how many of them are familiar with what Einstein described as the 8th wonder of the world, compound interest.
We can agree to disagree, just a few thoughts...
Difficult to believe that if your 800k immigration fund were to vanish overnight you would wipe your mouth and restore your account balance to the required amount, the while justifying silence with your excellent understanding of how Thailand works. I don't believe that for one moment, but will give you the benefit of no doubt.
I'm familiar with identity theft and fraud, having written a manual on it and also as a victim. It does not apply here. The fake cop in your example could threaten you, and so could a mugger or a real cop, but moving the discussion to fakes makes no point at all; in this case it was a real bank manager with intimate knowledge of how things work in a real bank using real bank props and documentation. No smoke and mirrors, no false moustache.YOU asked about a cashier looting your account . But that is not what happened here . False Accounts were set up . The money was never in the possession of Kasikorn . The method used was crude and it all stinks but its more like being stopped by a fake Police Officer using a stolen ID Card and a stolen Police car . Everything looks genuine . But its not . Someone can steal YOUR identity jabir and steal your mail with Letterheads and everything ! Then take out a Mortgage in your name . Disappear with the cash . This happens every single day .
Combine this with your earlier example of picking up a bank phone to tell your mate the thug to kill someone or send out bomb threats, which could be done from any phone or location, and it's beginning to feel like you're throwing stuff out hoping some sticks.
Precisely, he committed the fraud, which could not have been done without the bank's frontage and an entire production crew being at most generous blind or stupid or complicit, and untrained to identify what every account describes as overt suspicious activity. If the staff were not corrupt but simply inept or gullible, then customers should not be held to a higher standard. Otoh if they were all in on it...we're talking about a major bank, not the corner shop that palms you off with expired beetroot which left a friend believing he was at death's door last week.Operating from his Office was another layer of fraud - but HE committed the Fraud . Not Kasikorn.
Madoff pissed off the wrong people and he will pay by dying in jail. While this secrecy angle may be interesting as a footnote, he was not the inventor so I can't imagine why you give him the credit; and I'm also wondering where this fits into what we're discussing since it has zero bearing on the bank's liabilities. Fwiw I don't think it was particularly bright of him to use this secrecy thing; anyone with half a brain would have it lighting up if a bank manager told them here's a good thing, legit, direct from head office, but just for you so don't tell anyone else.Bernie Madoff said people could only join his Scheme by invitation . It was all to be private and secretive . ( Not his genuine trading .... the Ponzi which he operated from a separate set of offices ) . Similarly this Thai guy told people the whole thing was not to be advertised around . People LIKE that ! They like being in a privileged circle of investors . And it makes it all so much easier for the Operator of the scam .
But seeing as you brought it up, all frauds employ psychology in some form or other. The psychology used in this case could not have worked without the backdrop and physical properties of a real bank, garnished with confidence in his position of authority.
Fair enough, so despite my repeated assertion that victims should resort to any and all legal and peaceful means to recover their monies, you believe KBank should send its boys round to beat him up. Good that we know your position.I have no affection for Kasikorn . But Kasikorn will also suffer from this . And Kasikorn did not operate the scam . If I employ you jabir and you sit in my office and scam someone then its YOU that goes to jail and gets ordered to pay compensation . Not me . I just fire you and punch you in the face on your way out for all the damage you did to my name .
Supposedly you can make complaints about banks here but fuck knows if it would make any difference... probably not.
Ombudsman Thailand
Kasikorn made nigh on Bt30 BILLION profit last year, so it should not be difficult to refund customers and therefore establish a level of trust with current and future customers... they can look to get back what they can from their rogue employee.
Given their utter inaction over this, were I a Kasikorn customer, even one unaffected by this particular scam, I would have already closed my account and moved my money to another bank (or banks).
I simply wouldn't take the risk that another employee of this bank would help themselves to my assets and that the bank would essentially say "tough shit it's not our problem", which is exactly what they are doing when it patently IS.
I have yet to see anyone online complain that they were victims of this scam. Then again if they fell for it, the chances are they are too stupid to use a computer.
Usually I feel no sympathy for greedy and gullible investors who expect unrealistic profits and get ripped off. In this case I feel differently. If I walked into my bank and the manager stopped to point out their advertised 'special deal' and gave me credible paperwork in return for a deposit, then maybe I'd be taken in, especially if I was under the misunderstanding that the promised interest rate was annual. If the manager told me it was monthly then certainly I'd laugh in his face, others apparently didn't.
There is very much we don't know about how the fraud was perpetrated. I see reference to counterfeit or outdated passbooks, it is not clear exactly what documentation the victims received and how that documentation was produced. The victims must have received some proof of deposit, chopped and signed and computer printed. Possibly those deposits went into Kasikorn accounts controlled by the culprit. I don't suppose the manager walked home with sackfuls of cash. Possibly some of the loot is still in the bank. Only the bank knows.
Whatever happened there were clear control failures at Kasikorn. Of course, being a bank, they will use their deep pockets to tie up the victims in interminable civil court actions rather than do the morally decent thing and accept any liability. It could drag on for years, all the while the bank will hold on to the funds that they didn't exactly steal but which they know to be stolen.
It is not the principal job of the police to trace the missing money. My bet is that a piece of it actually is still in the possession of Kasikorn.
As has been said it seems most of the guys went the Thai way and let their wives or significant others handle their banking and bills. It seems to have worked for a long time before the proverbial shit hit the fan. But I know I would for sure have asked one question. "How much interest are we getting at the bank". If the answer was 3.5 % a month alarm bells should have rung loudly. Lots of alcohol consumed by these old expats down in Pattaya could well be one of the causes that question was never asked.
The Bankgkok Post mentioned that many of the farangs had retirement deposits at the bank and had known the manager for years. Perhaps he was able to cherry pick the most promising targets.
The Post also mentioned that they had bank books, it was only when some tried to update them at other branches that the inconsistencies were noted.
Being old, sozzled, unaware or stupid, or all of these things, doesn't provoke a lot of sympathy but these people were clearly vulnerable and that makes this fraud particularly despicable IMHO.
^ Agreed. I will avoid stereotyping their wives as well.
Like I've already said .... it stinks . It STINKS .
But I don't see a difference between this corrupt piece of schitt and a Policeman who pulls you over for nothing at all and just holds your license while he's waiting for his ' tea money ' .
Or the Local Official who charges a Thai 2000 Baht to formalise his Residence Documentation but charges a Farang 10 000 when its a fixed 2000 charge .
It's all corruption .
I TOTALLY TOTALLY feel sorry for the Farangs who have been done here . But my best friend in Thailand was conned out of 30 Million Baht ..... by his girlfriend ....... who could only do it with cooperation from officials at the Registration Office.
He never saw a Baht back .
I do feel sorry for them . I do . But I also feel they could have acted with more caution .
It's a much-used phrase ..... but we all DO know that if it looks too good to be true then it damn well probably is .
w.
The thing that i find staggering is that the idiots perpetrating the fraud seem oblivious to the fact that the first rule of fraud is this:
Do it big, do it quick and get the fuk out
and that was told to me by a fairly senior fraud investigator back in the 80s, and no it wasn't part of my rehabilitation programme.
Here are some savings rates at Bangkok Bang
5-Month Fixed Deposit
Interest Rate 0.55% p.a.
7-Month Fixed Deposit
Interest Rate 0.625% p.a.
So 3.5% p.a is high too. But not mental
Sure he may be a cnut, but gotta credit him for the smarts to identify and conceive the plan using readily available props and resources, put together the elements, and the boldness to execute as a long term fraud in plain sight.
No doubt the menagerie will feign outrage that anyone could say anything positive about a thief, but that's TD for you and here's some more idiot ammo.
Another thief that impressed me enough to recall a lifetime later, was in the early computer days, the programmer that opened a bank account in the name of Zyzogivorski or something like that, and then programmed the bank's computer when calculating monthly interest to dump all fractions of a penny into the last chronological account. Real smart, he identified and exploited a weakness to construct a victimless crime using access and intimate knowledge of the system, through which he would enrich himself with a regular stream of millions of fractions of a penny. The bank wasn't a victim, since they rightly owed those fractions anyway, and none of the customers would ever miss the fractions that they never received anyway, because until then the computer simply dropped the fraction by rounding down. The perfect crime, and he could have earned billions from it over time, except for overlooking the unexpected, that some Pole might turn up to open an account with a name that starts with Zz...
^
he's incredibly stupid.
he reads nonsense on reddit and the like ...misunderstands most of it....forgets key parts of it...and then woefully attempts to post about it here.
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