Thread: TAT Proposes Vaccine Passports & No Quarantine So Tourists Can Return March or April

Quite why Airasia has gone on their own I have no fucking idea.

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s.a.

bilge from the editorials of rightwing fascist apologists

i am not sure how having either a left wing or a right wing perspective can alter the proven facts of science, but i am sure you will find a link.

you will of course be aware of the importance of the t cell response in fighting the sars-covid virus.
vitamin d levels and the use of its metabolites also directly affects t cell production in the body.

in the meantime read this from the guardian, and note the important reference to T cells.

Greener play areas boost children’s immune systems, research finds

Autoimmune diseases are rising fast but first experimental study shows nature could help


Wed 14 Oct 2020 19.00 BST


Children whose outdoor play areas were transformed from gravel yards to mini-forests showed improved immune systems within a month, research has shown.

The scientists believe this is because the children had developed significantly more diverse microbes on their skin and in their guts than the children whose playgrounds were not upgraded.

Across the western world, rates of autoimmune diseases, where the body mistakenly attacks itself, are rising. The diseases include asthma, eczema, type 1 diabetes, inflammatory bowel disease and multiple sclerosis. A leading possible explanation for this trend, called the hygiene hypothesis, is that children are being exposed to far fewer microbes than in the past. This means their immune systems are less challenged and more prone to making mistakes.

Previous studies have shown statistical associations between exposure to microbial diversity and the development of a well-functioning immune system. But this is the first study to deliberately change the children’s environment and therefore indicate a causal link.

The researchers said their experiment shows it may be possible to improve the development of the immune system with relatively simple changes to the living environments of urban children.

The study involved 75 children in two cities in Finland, a relatively small number for a trial. “But when we saw the results, we were very surprised because they were so strong,” said Aki Sinkkonen, at Natural Resources Institute Finland, who led the work. “Our study can pave the way for new preventive practices to cut the global epidemic of immune-mediated diseases.”

Sinkkonen said there are similar experimental studies currently taking place elsewhere but their results have not yet been published. His team has now started research to see if giving babies a boost in microbe diversity then goes on to reduce levels of autoimmune disease.

“It is wonderful forward-looking work.” said Prof Graham Rook, at University College London. “Many of the disorders that are increasing in western urbanised populations are due to failure of the mechanisms that supervise the immune system. This study shows that exposing children to a biodiverse natural environment boosts several biomarkers of the essential control mechanisms. These Finnish research groups have been leading the way in applying this understanding in a practical way.”

The research is published in the journal Science Advances and was conducted by a large team including experts in medicine, ecology and urban planning. The children were between three and five years old and spread between 10 similar daycare centres.

In four centres, turf from natural forest floors, complete with dwarf shrubs, blueberries, crowberry, and mosses, were installed in previously bare play areas. The children spent an average of 90 minutes a day outside and were encouraged to play with the plants and soil. “It was easy because [the green area] was the most exciting place in the yard,” said Sinkkonen. The cost for each green yard was around €5,000, less than the annual maintenance budgets for the yards.

Tests after 28 days showed the diversity of microbes on the children’s skin was a third higher than for those still playing in gravel yards and was significantly increased in the gut. Blood samples showed beneficial changes to a range of proteins and cells related to the immune system, including anti-inflammatory cytokine and regulatory T cells.

The researchers gave all the children the same meals each day and excluded the small number who had been given probiotic supplements by their parents. The scientists could not control the home environment but said the fact that a significant effect was seen despite variable home conditions shows the effect of the forest intervention was strong.


Living with a dog cuts child's risk of asthma by 15%, study shows
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The researchers are also investigating whether sand pits can be inoculated with diverse microbes to boost the immune system of children in places where forest soil and plants are not available.

Prof Glenn Gibson, at the University of Reading, in the UK, and a board member of the International Scientific Association for Probiotics and Prebiotics, said: “This is an interesting study and potentially important but I do not agree that diversity is the key marker for gut health. High functionality can occur with low diversity. For instance, look at a virus that sweeps the world. Having said that, the researchers have assessed certain health biomarkers and not relied solely upon diversity as an indicator, so it is good study.”

A report in 2019 by the UK’s Royal Society for Public Health concluded that grubbing around outside is important for building a robust immune system, but that cleanliness is still vital when people are preparing and eating food.

Greener play areas boost children’s immune systems, research finds | Trees and forests | The Guardian

and this from the BMJ


T-cells really are the superstars in fighting COVID-19 - but why are some of us so poor at making them?

Thank you to Dr Doshi for raising the profile of T-cells. Incidentally, German researchers found that a staggering 81% of individuals had pre-existing T-cells that cross-react with SARS-CoV-2 epitopes [1]. This fits with modelling in May by Imperial College’s Professor Friston, a world authority in mathematical modelling of complex dynamic biological systems, indicating that around 80% and 50% of the German and UK populations, respectively, are resistant to COVID-19: Karl Friston: up to 80% not even susceptible to Covid-19 - UnHerd...

Antibodies can only latch onto and help destroy pathogens outside cells and may also occasionally, paradoxically, enhance a pathogen’s ability to infect cell instead by antibody dependent ”enhancement” or ADE. It is only the T-cell that can cleverly sense and destroy pathogens inside infected cells using “sensors” which detect foreign protein fragments.

In the late 60’s the Lancet described a case of a child with agammaglobulinemia, a condition in which absence of B cells prevent them from producing antibodies, who overcame a measles infection quite normally and did not become re-infected thereafter. We now know that, although this condition can compromise immunity, in that particular case the rest of the immune functions, including T-cells, must have been perfectly up to the job of clearing infection and establishing immune memory without help from antibodies. The importance of T-cells in fighting SARS-CoV-1 and establishing immune memory has also been well documented and discussed in a number of pre-COVID papers from 2017 and earlier [2].

Then, early in April, it was reported that two patients with agammaglobulinemia overcame COVID-19 infections without requiring ventilation [3], prompting the Italian authors to write: “This observation suggests that T‐cell response is probably important for immune protection against the virus, while B‐cell response might be unessential”.

All this should have shifted the focus of efforts towards T-cells at an early stage - the real question is why mainstream media and others continued to focus efforts and narrative on antibodies. Is it because vaccines are good at provoking antibody responses but not so great at generating T-cells? Some of the vaccines presently under trial do elicit some T-cells but it seems that neither the quantity nor variety are hugely impressive.

Does this matter? Apparently so: Research establishments including Yale found that in mild or asymptomatic cases, many T-cells are produced. These were highly varied, responding not just to parts of the Spike, S protein or Receptor Binding Domain but to many other parts of the virus [1, 4-6]. Notably, in these mild cases there were few or no detectable antibodies. Conversely, the severely ill produced few T-cells with less variety but had plenty of antibodies. What is also of interest is that men produced fewer T-cells than women, and unlike women, their T-cell response reduced with age [7].

So why are some people unable to mount a good protective T-cell response? The key to this question might be a 10-year-old Danish study led by Carsten Geisler, head of the Department of International Health, Immunology and Microbiology at the University of Copenhagen [8]. Geisler noted that "When a T cell is exposed to a foreign pathogen, it extends a signalling device or 'antenna' known as a vitamin D receptor, with which it searches for vitamin D,", and if there is an inadequate vitamin D level, "they won't even begin to mobilize." In other words, adequate vitamin D is critically important for the activation of T-cells from their inactive naïve state. The question of whether T-cells might also need a continuing supply of vitamin D to prevent the T-cell exhaustion and apoptosis observed in some serious COVID-19 cases [9] deserves further research.

High levels of vitamin D are also critical for first line immune defences including physical mucosal defences, human antiviral production, modulating cytokines, reducing blood clotting and a whole host of other important immune system functions [10]. The obese, diabetics and people of BAME origin are far more deficient in vitamin D and men have lower levels than women [10].

Another intriguing clue is that Japan has the highest proportion of elderly on the planet but despite lack of lockdowns, little mask wearing and high population densities in cities, it escaped with few COVID deaths. Could this, at least in part, be because of extraordinarily high vitamin D levels of over 30 ng/ml in 95% of the active elderly [11]? By comparison, UK average levels are below 20ng/ml [10]. Vitamin D is made in the skin from the action of UV sunlight, food usually being a poor source, but the Japanese diet includes unusually high levels. Sunny countries near the equator (e.g. Nigeria, Singapore, Sri Lanka) also have very low COVID related deaths.

The results of the first vitamin D intervention double blind RCT for COVID was published on 29 August by researchers in Córdoba, Spain. This very well conducted study produced spectacular outcomes for the vitamin D group (n=50), virtually eliminating the need for ICU (reducing it by 96%) and eliminating deaths (8% in the n=26 control group). Although this was a small trial, the ICU results are so dramatic that they are statistically highly significant [12].

Substantially more vitamin D is required for optimal immune function than for bone health. It seems Dr Fauci is not ignorant of this, having apparently confirmed on TV and by email that he takes 6,000 IU daily! (see Dr John Campbell on YouTube Vitamin D and pandemic science, 16 September 2020). Meanwhile the US’s health body continues to recommend only 600-800 IU and the UK’s, only 400 IU.

It is high time for joined up solid scientific rationale to overthrow mainstream narratives based on an alternative “science” controlled by industry interests/politics. Beda M Stadler, the former Director of the Institute for Immunology at the University of Bern, a biologist and Professor Emeritus, certainly appears to think so (see Ivor Cummins Ep91 Emeritus Professor of Immunology...Reveals Crucial Viral Immunity Reality on YouTube, 28 July 2020).

In the same way that prior infections protect us against future infections by means of cross-reacting T-cells, overcoming COVID-19 naturally offers potential for greater protection against future coronaviruses. Vaccines have their place but so do our amazingly complex, sophisticated, highly effective immune systems which have evolved over millennia to protect us from a world teeming with trillions of pathogens.

Rhttps://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563/rr-6eferences

I'm sorry Tax but the nonsense that rolling in the dirt somehow triggers a stronger immune system sufficient to drive off viral infections to which others succumb because they didn't is mere academic speculation.

But the thesis is blown out of the water from the perspective of COVID infection given the most at risk are those in the 70+ group who all rolled in the fucking dirt for a pastime and probably a fair few took a shit in an outside dumper and restricted a bath to once a week.

A healthy body resourced by a balance diet and not afflicted by congenital vulnerability will develop an immune system sufficient to qualify as the norm irrespective of how many mud pools were frolicked in or the number of nights spent with the fucking dog.

The problem with COVID is that healthy immune systems are triggering cytokine storms and ravaging the lungs and other organs.

And the increasing development of immune deficient inspired conditions being encountered is probably attributable to several factors e.g strides in medical science discovering this syndrome which remained unknown two generations ago, the pervasive and exponential use of plastics within the home, workplace and pretty much everywhere else, and the increasing disinclination to exercise to any significant degree.

Rolling around in the dirt during my pre-adolescence in what were carefree, halcyon days redolent of Houseman's blue remembered hills may well stand me in good stead should I ever be unlucky enough to encounter viral infection but as far as I am aware it were vaccinations that shielded me from smallpox and polio, and not a fucking mudpie.

the secret to longevity is the inheritance of good genes and the build up and maintenance of a healthy immune system.

early exposure to "dirt" and animals, especially early in life when it has its greatest effect on the thymus, has been proven to strengthen the immune system and increase the production of t cells. there are any number of papers out there to back this up.

so it is not academic speculation, it has been well substantiated by research. not that "rolling around in the dirt" will prevent you from contracting covid, but that those who have had a more intimate connection with the natural world, especially early in life, will develop a stronger immune system and reap the benefits that that will bring when hit with bacterial or viral illness.

the draconian lockdowns in thailand have certainly played their part, but such measures would be unthinkable and uninforceable in the west, yet the thai have been reporting around 1000 cases a day, most of which are asymptomatic with very few hospitalisations or deaths. why so few hospitalisations in s.e.asia compared to western countries, is it the their higher vit d levels, the strength of the their immune systems thanks to "rolling around in the dirt", previous exposure to the sars virus.

population density also plays a large part in the spreading of infection, thailands population density is 140 people /km2, whereas that of the uk is 430, germany is 240 and that of new zealand is only 20.

the uk also has a large population of minority groups that refuse to integrate with the wider community and who live by their own rules.

there are many factors that have resulted in the uks appalling death rate, some of them even now poorly understood but the governments early mishandling of the crisis is only one of them. at least they are having some success in getting the jabs into peoples arms, here in yorkshire all the over 60s have been given appointments, both mrs t and myself had my 1st pfizer last week.

whats the story for whitey residents getting a jab in the land of smiles? pay through the nose or back of the queue?

Little bit of science:

The effects of aging on the immune system are manifest at multiple levels that include reduced production of B and T cells in bone marrow and thymus and diminished function of mature lymphocytes in secondary lymphoid tissues. As a result, elderly individuals do not respond to immune challenge as robustly as the young.

Causes, consequences, and reversal of immune system aging.

Originally Posted by misskit

Flights from here to Thailand are mostly going the other way now, through the Middle East.

Avoid Qatar Airways. Emirates isn't much better.

Originally Posted by Seekingasylum

I'm sorry Tax but the nonsense that rolling in the dirt somehow triggers a stronger immune system sufficient to drive off viral infections to which others succumb because they didn't is mere academic speculation.

But the thesis is blown out of the water from the perspective of COVID infection given the most at risk are those in the 70+ group who all rolled in the fucking dirt for a pastime and probably a fair few took a shit in an outside dumper and restricted a bath to once a week.

A healthy body resourced by a balance diet and not afflicted by congenital vulnerability will develop an immune system sufficient to qualify as the norm irrespective of how many mud pools were frolicked in or the number of nights spent with the fucking dog.

The problem with COVID is that healthy immune systems are triggering cytokine storms and ravaging the lungs and other organs.

And the increasing development of immune deficient inspired conditions being encountered is probably attributable to several factors e.g strides in medical science discovering this syndrome which remained unknown two generations ago, the pervasive and exponential use of plastics within the home, workplace and pretty much everywhere else, and the increasing disinclination to exercise to any significant degree.

Rolling around in the dirt during my pre-adolescence in what were carefree, halcyon days redolent of Houseman's blue remembered hills may well stand me in good stead should I ever be unlucky enough to encounter viral infection but as far as I am aware it were vaccinations that shielded me from smallpox and polio, and not a fucking mudpie.

Yet another fine display of arrogance, ignorance and intransigence to the possibility that another individual might possess more relevant information than you.
Your staggering ineptitude know no bounds in this case. You are not an immunologist or a virologist, yet you somehow manage to believe that your personal history and current circumstances, offer a good deal more protection than peer reviewed science. This level of stupidity and self aggrandizement demonstrates why you should be completely ignored on any topic where you espouse such severely limited knowledge.
You are a proven fraud on this and any other subject you have posted on this forum.
Spreading spiteful lies and disinformation on your level should be punished.

Originally Posted by happynz

Avoid Qatar Airways. Emirates isn't much better.

Because....?

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

Say the people who came to Thailand because they wanted perfect safety.

Umm...the first concern is not the people who 'come' to Thailand, whatever they want.

Get over yourself.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Because

They have crappy customer service. At least that has been my experience.

Originally Posted by happynz

They have crappy customer service. At least that has been my experience.

Ah. The cheap seats. I get it.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Ah. The cheap seats. I get it.

Nope. That's not it at all. It's their check-in and back office reservation agent muppets that are the problem.

Originally Posted by happynz

Avoid Qatar Airways. Emirates isn't much better.

Gave up on both and the rest of ME carriers long ago, the product declined quickly after they had reached a certain size.

Originally Posted by Bored

IMO there seems to be either a lack of understanding or a blatant effort to ignore the science ! There is no claim by any supplier of a vaccine that it will guarantee a non infection status..only a reduction of impact/duration etc of infection as is the situation with influenza vaccines.
So a person who has had the vaccine shots will presumably not get deathly sick but can still carry and spread the virus. Or if they are in that percentage which the vaccine does not work then they are potentially super spreaders as any other !

Originally Posted by cyrille

Umm...the first concern is not the people who 'come' to Thailand, whatever they want.

Get over yourself.

That's an incoherent sentence.
Honestly, I read it a couple of time to try and understand what you were trying to say but without success.

Originally Posted by happynz

Nope. That's not it at all. It's their check-in and back office reservation agent muppets that are the problem.

"Back office reservation"? I can't remember the time I had to use any of that.

And as for check-in, I don't do that with the riff raff so I don't know.

Correction, I do stroll past them with their glum faces but I long ago stopped paying any attention.

Lucky you.

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

That's an incoherent sentence.
Honestly, I read it a couple of time to try and understand what you were trying to say but without success.

Correct. The only person who might understand the majority of his posts is Cyrille. Admittedly that is a surprise given his grammar Nazi approach to other posters efforts.
This is a forum, not a tertiary dissertation depository. His limited contributions are feeble attempts at brevity, lest he give away clues to his reality. Such fears are quite limiting, as his poor posting history suggests.

No vaccine for the common cold yet!

Originally Posted by Loy Toy

No vaccine for the common cold yet!

True.
But the common rhinovirus types are far from being homogenous - there is said to be thousands of varieties of these most "common" strains.
It's been suggested that one could go through several life times and never fallen ill with the same type of virus.
I could imagine that it might be impossible to create a "universal" vaccine[s] for the common cold.

Actually, in most cases, it might be beneficial for one to catch a cold once in a great while - as this cycle strengthens the average immune system over time.

Originally Posted by HuangLao

True.
But the common rhinovirus types are far from being homogenous - there is said to be thousands of varieties of these most "common" strains.
It's been suggested that one could go through several life times and never fallen ill with the same type of virus.
I could imagine that it might be impossible to create a "universal" vaccine[s] for the common cold.

Actually, in most cases, it might be beneficial for one to catch a cold once in a great while - as this cycle strengthens the average immune system over time.

Exactly!! because there is no such thing as the common cold, every year there is a different strain.

Originally Posted by Loy Toy

No vaccine for the common cold yet!

There are at least 160 different strains that mutate.

You'd need a lot of vaccines.

It's the same with the "common" flu, usually a different strain every year...in my country of origin a vaccine is offered every year, it is optional and authorities focus on the most vulnerable people (elderly etc), it usually works, sometimes the strain in circulation is not the one the vaccine has been designed for ...but every year there's a new vaccine.
Having a "vaccine passport" seems like opening the pandora box, pending the studies on the efficiency of the current covid vaccine against the various strains...Worst scenario would be that the current vaccines wouldn't protect people, leading to further mandatory vaccines if you want to travel.