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  1. #1
    Isle of discombobulation Joe 90's Avatar
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    Thai hotel groups urge scrapping of quarantine rules for vaccinated tourists



    Thailand’s hotel operators are pressing the government to scrap quarantine requirements for foreign tourists who have been vaccinated for coronavirus in an effort to kickstart the paralysed industry.Two leading hotel groups told the Financial Times they supported ending the mandatory 14-day quarantine for non-Thai visitors who could prove they had been vaccinated.“We should be very quickly allowing people who are safely vaccinated to travel without quarantine,” said William Heinecke, chairman of Minor International, Thailand’s largest listed hotel and hospitality group. “There are tremendous numbers of people who won’t come to Thailand, or won’t come to any country that has a quarantine, because it takes too much time.”Tourism is Thailand’s second-largest industry, accounting for about a fifth of gross domestic product. The country sealed its borders to most foreign visitors last March and imposed strict testing and quarantine requirements on those seeking to enter.“The current quarantine restrictions are crippling our industry and having a massive impact on Thailand's economy,” said Suphajee Suthumpun, chief executive of Dusit International, another Bangkok-listed hotel group. “With foreign tourists accounting for around 70 per cent of the total industry, and with tourism representing around 22 per cent of GDP, it’s clear that we need to open the borders to vaccinated travellers as soon as possible.”Ms Suphajee said workers in Thailand’s hospitality sector should be given priority in being vaccinated. “This would also protect locals and travellers alike, and limit the risk of infection,” she said. The pandemic has emptied out some of Thailand’s best-known attractions, from the Andaman Sea islands in the south to Chiang Mai in the north, with government subsidies for Thais’ hotel stays making up only part of the industry’s losses.RecommendedFT SeriesLeading in a crisisCrisis managing the travel industry through its most difficult yearThailand last year sought to lure long-stay foreign visitors such as pensioners willing to undergo its rigorous testing and quarantine requirements — but few came. International visitor arrivals plunged to about 6.8m last year, from a record 40m in 2019.Tanes Petsuwan, deputy governor of the Tourism Authority of Thailand, said the hoteliers’ proposal had been sent to the government. “I believe they are now considering it very carefully,” he said. “I think it is a very good sign.” Thailand has weathered the pandemic better than most other countries its size, reporting about 13,000 cases and 71 deaths. However, GDP contracted by 6.5 per cent last year, according to the World Bank.The government is coming under growing criticism domestically for the pace and design of its rollout of Covid-19 vaccines. Authorities said last week they would charge Thanathorn Juangroongruangkit, the leading opposition politician, with insulting the monarchy after he questioned the dominant role in vaccine production being played by Siam Bioscience, a company owned by King Maha Vajiralongkorn. Siam Bioscience is making the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine, which health officials say will be available from mid-year. Imported vaccines made by China’s Sinovac are expected by February. “Even if we haven’t vaccinated our population yet, we need to somehow allow safe travellers in who have been vaccinated,” said Mr Heinecke.

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    Shalom

  2. #2
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    Farang Ky Ay's Avatar
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    With the news about vaccinated people still getting infected (but with lighter or no symptoms) and thus still contaminating other people, I doubt authorities would consider vaccinated travelers as "safe" unless they change their mind considering the low death rate compared to the dire economic situation caused by those restrictions.

    TBH I doubt numbers would be quite there even if Thai borders would be widely open, as countries of origin still have travel restrictions and endure the same poor economic conditions.

  3. #3
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farang Ky Ay View Post
    With the news about vaccinated people still getting infected (but with lighter or no symptoms) and thus still contaminating other people,
    There is no such news other that fanciful Facetube posts shared by witless twats.

    There is no scientific evidence either way as yet. I would wait for it before making any judgements.

    VERDICT

    Missing context. There is no conclusive evidence to claim COVID-19 vaccines do not prevent people spreading the disease. Scientists are not yet sure of how the vaccine affects transmission – and this is currently undergoing research. People are still required to follow restrictions even after vaccination to account for this uncertainty.
    Fact check: Scientists do not yet know whether the COVID-19 vaccine reduces transmission of the virus | Reuters

  4. #4
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    Farang Ky Ay's Avatar
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    AFAIK, the main goals of a vaccine is to prevent getting sick from a disease AND stop (or at least dramatically reduce) its spreading, so the fact that the vaccines efficiency rates are dropping from what was initially "advertised", and that once "vaccinated" you're still required to use masks as you may catch the virus again (different strains etc) and spread it to others is worrying as that's what vaccines are designed for in the first place...

    The fact that both pharma companies and official health bodies (WHO, CDC) don't know if the vaccines will prevent the spreading of the disease is in itself alarming as it's the main goal of a vaccine. And that's why I voiced my doubts about vaccinated people being considered as safe to be granted unhindered entry to Thailand.

    A simple search on this topic show results that I wouldn't qualify as obscure facetube posts but each to his own I guess...
    WHO: No evidence COVID-19 vaccine will prevent transmission - Business Insider
    COVID-19 vaccines may not prevent spread of virus, so mask-wearing, other protections still critical | UW News
    Frequently Asked Questions about COVID-19 Vaccination | CDC

  5. #5
    กงเกวียนกำเกวียน HuangLao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farang Ky Ay View Post
    Him who's fact checking the fact checkers?

    Because AFAIK the main goals of a vaccine is to prevent getting sick from a disease AND stop (or at least dramatically reduce) its spreading, so the fact that the vaccines efficiency rates are dropping from what was initially "advertised", and that once "vaccinated" you're still required to use masks as you may catch the virus again (different strains etc) and spread it to others is worrying as that's what vaccines are designed for in the first place...

    The fact that both pharma companies and official health bodies (WHO, CDC) don't know if the vaccines will prevent the spreading of the disease is in itself alarming as it's the main goal of a vaccine. And that's why I voiced my doubts about vaccinated people being considered as safe to be granted unhindered entry to Thailand.

    A simple search on this topic show results that I wouldn't qualify as obscure facetube posts but each to his own I guess...
    WHO: No evidence COVID-19 vaccine will prevent transmission - Business Insider
    COVID-19 vaccines may not prevent spread of virus, so mask-wearing, other protections still critical | UW News
    Frequently Asked Questions about COVID-19 Vaccination | CDC



  6. #6
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    A simple search shows results including "no evidence" and "may".

    So, again, wait for "Evidence" and "will or won't".

  7. #7
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    The problem with a vaccine is it should per definition provide a reasonable level of immunity and help significantly to prevent the spread of the disease, having no proof that it prevent transmission is already worrying for something that is designed to do that. There actually should have plenty bof evidence that a vaccine prevent people from catching/spreading it, that's what they are designed for...the absence of evidence, the "may", "probably" may not be enough to counter-balance the risks of side effects, especially taking into account the feeble death rate. And creating global travel/tourism policies on such assumptions is risky IMHO


    As I said each to his own, I think that this has already enough red flags to make me think my main priority here should be to wait and see what happens cause once you get injected, you can't be un-vaccinated you stuck with your partial or non-existing immunity and the risks of side-effects.
    Last edited by Farang Ky Ay; 31-01-2021 at 10:34 PM.

  8. #8
    Thailand Expat russellsimpson's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Farang Ky Ay;421643, so the fact that the vaccines efficiency rates are dropping from what was initially "advertised",

    You are most kind. I tend to call such activity lying.

    The Johnson and Johnson jab which is expected to be approved very soon is 72 percent effective .

    The head honcho over at Moderna says ( speaking of the Johnson jab) "Don't let the perfect get in the way of the good enough". Cheeky little shit.

    Now they are telling us that what J and J lacks in efficacy they make up in for by to lowering the severity of the infection. I believe we have other treatments that will do the same.
    A true diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you will be asking for directions.

  9. #9
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson View Post
    Now they are telling us that what J and J lacks in efficacy they make up in for by to lowering the severity of the infection. I believe we have other treatments that will do the same.
    What they said was that none of the trial subjects died. How ill some of them got I have no idea.

  10. #10
    Thailand Expat jabir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farang Ky Ay View Post
    The problem with a vaccine is it should per definition provide a reasonable level of immunity and help significantly to prevent the spread of the disease, having no proof that it prevent transmission is already worrying for something that is designed to do that. There actually should have plenty bof evidence that a vaccine prevent people from catching/spreading it, that's what they are designed for...the absence of evidence, the "may", "probably" may not be enough to counter-balance the risks of side effects, especially taking into account the feeble death rate. And creating global travel/tourism policies on such assumptions is risky IMHO

    As I said each to his own, I think that this has already enough red flags to make me think my main priority here should be to wait and see what happens cause once you get injected, you can't be un-vaccinated you stuck with your partial or non-existing immunity and the risks of side-effects.
    I agree each to their own, and do hope that all vaccine claims turn out to be valid and if anything underinflated.

    But let's look at confidence; at the risk of upsetting our resident experts, and aside from my concerns posted earlier, I think a clue to confidence in the current slew of vaccines is that despite having been vaccinated with a gov's approved vaccine, official policies still lean toward quarantine after cross border travel. And we've seen first hand just how dire the situation can become when a 3w country like Thailand that's so dependent on tourism is shut down.

    After a year of gross global mismanagement resulting in untold hardship, how come there is still no central database or other standardised form of vaccination validation, which could bypass the need for quarantine and its adverse effects, resulting in a faster return to the new normal, whatever that is? Are they in shock that a vaccine could be developed so soon, and only now thinking what a great idea it might be to share this important data, or is it just an extension of the same incompetence we've seen to date? Aside from those on the front line that have died as a result of the poor decisions made by their bosses, which of those bosses have earned their pay and perks to date? Rhetorical.

    Only the experts know, and TD is fortunate in that respect, so what exactly is it that these vaccines are expected to do? If they are supposed to immunise, based on current knowledge, then what is the point of quarantine despite being vaccinated? If they are supposed to prevent transmission in the event the subject is infected at some later time, again, why the need to quarantine? And should go without saying, anyplace else, if a vaccine is claimed to both immunise and prevent transmission, quarantine make even less sense.

    If anyone does respond, with a bit of luck it won't be our resident righteous that believe only idiots could possibly not have the benefit of their superior understanding.

  11. #11
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabir View Post
    I agree each to their own, and do hope that all vaccine claims turn out to be valid and if anything underinflated.

    But let's look at confidence; at the risk of upsetting our resident experts, and aside from my concerns posted earlier, I think a clue to confidence in the current slew of vaccines is that despite having been vaccinated with a gov's approved vaccine, official policies still lean toward quarantine after cross border travel. And we've seen first hand just how dire the situation can become when a 3w country like Thailand that's so dependent on tourism is shut down.

    After a year of gross global mismanagement resulting in untold hardship, how come there is still no central database or other standardised form of vaccination validation, which could bypass the need for quarantine and its adverse effects, resulting in a faster return to the new normal, whatever that is? Are they in shock that a vaccine could be developed so soon, and only now thinking what a great idea it might be to share this important data, or is it just an extension of the same incompetence we've seen to date? Aside from those on the front line that have died as a result of the poor decisions made by their bosses, which of those bosses have earned their pay and perks to date? Rhetorical.

    Only the experts know, and TD is fortunate in that respect, so what exactly is it that these vaccines are expected to do? If they are supposed to immunise, based on current knowledge, then what is the point of quarantine despite being vaccinated? If they are supposed to prevent transmission in the event the subject is infected at some later time, again, why the need to quarantine? And should go without saying, anyplace else, if a vaccine is claimed to both immunise and prevent transmission, quarantine make even less sense.

    If anyone does respond, with a bit of luck it won't be our resident righteous that believe only idiots could possibly not have the benefit of their superior understanding.
    You're OK, I've got this.

    Many, many questions...

    After a year of gross global mismanagement resulting in untold hardship, how come there is still no central database or other standardised form of vaccination validation, which could bypass the need for quarantine and its adverse effects, resulting in a faster return to the new normal, whatever that is?
    I'm pretty sure each country has a record of who has been vaccinated. Are you talking about a global database? If you are, who owns it? Who secures it? Governments will argue about this (look at the squareheads saying they don't even think countries should make allowance for the vaccinated even if the science says they *don't* spread the virus). The EU will say they should run it. Putin and Mr. Shithole will stick their oars in. The US will say they should. They'll never agree.

    In the same question, you mention it could "bypass the need for quarantine" which is something for which at the moment there is no clear evidence.

    Are they in shock that a vaccine could be developed so soon, and only now thinking what a great idea it might be to share this important data, or is it just an extension of the same incompetence we've seen to date?
    See above: National interests make global co-operation difficult.

    so what exactly is it that these vaccines are expected to do?
    Stop people dying of the disease.

    If they are supposed to immunise, based on current knowledge, then what is the point of quarantine despite being vaccinated?
    To stop people dying of the disease. Again: There is no evidence either way that the vaccine stops virus transmission dead, although it may reduce it significantly both in duration and in virus shedding.

    If they are supposed to prevent transmission in the event the subject is infected at some later time, again, why the need to quarantine?
    Again: No-one is saying the vaccine will *prevent* transmission. No-one has yet finished a study regarding virus transmission from the vaccinated.

    There are still lots of unanswered questions regarding how quickly the vaccine will end the pandemic and end the deaths, but science tells us that it most likely will.

    Here's an idea: Imagine if the vaccine is shown to virtually eliminate the risk of death or even serious illness? Thailand could, in theory, rope off Samui and Phuket with a ring of coastguard and navy boats; vaccinate the entire populations of both islands; and allow vaccinated tourists to fly in and holiday unfettered. They could probably charge Bhutan-size prices for it as well, and they'd still pack the places out.

    They could probably do this within six weeks of getting vaccines. Do you think they should? Do you think other countries should stay out of it?

  12. #12
    Thailand Expat russellsimpson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabir View Post
    .

    Only the experts know, and TD is fortunate in that respect,

    .
    Thoughtful comments jabir.

    Quite refreshing.

  13. #13
    Hangin' Around cyrille's Avatar
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    And here was a short answer that should be easy to understand. Why this is proving so difficult to understand here, well, that's probably already established. Hey, I know! I'll make it bigger.



    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Again: No-one is saying the vaccine will *prevent* transmission. No-one has yet finished a study regarding virus transmission from the vaccinated.

  14. #14
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    There appears to be a consensus.

    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Again: No-one is saying the vaccine will *prevent* transmission. No-one has yet finished a study regarding virus transmission from the vaccinated.
    Which suggests that all countries should protect their citizens until the facts are known.

    The hotel owners pushing for business should be ignored.

  15. #15
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    There appears to be a consensus.


    Which suggests that all countries should protect their citizens until the facts are known.

    The hotel owners pushing for business should be ignored.
    Absolutely. I was instructed at my second 5G chip installation that I must continue wearing a mask, social distancing, etc.

  16. #16
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    I did say that any vaccine's goal is to prevent people from catching the disease and spreading it to other.
    And that's why I'm highly doubtful about a "vaccine" that doesn't prevent either, especially when the death rate of the disease is so low.

    The point about studies needing to be conducted to make sure of the vaccine efficiency (against the various strains) and a its role in preventing the spread (usually achieved by preventing vaccinated people from catching the disease) is exactly why I'm in a wait and see stand, such studies (efficiency, side-effects etc) are to be done prior to the commercial release not after, I'm not a guinea pig. And if you add to the picture that pharma companies aren't legally responsible if anything go wrong, well I'm not particularly reassured either.

  17. #17
    Hangin' Around cyrille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farang Ky Ay View Post
    such studies (efficiency, side-effects etc) are to be done prior to the commercial release not after, I'm not a guinea pig.
    Fair enough...don't take it until you're satisfied.

  18. #18
    Thailand Expat lom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farang Ky Ay View Post
    I did say that any vaccine's goal is to prevent people from catching the disease and spreading it to other.
    And that's why I'm highly doubtful about a "vaccine" that doesn't prevent either, especially when the death rate of the disease is so low.
    If you are waiting for a vaccine that creates an invisible shield around you then you can wait forever.
    A vaccine can only prevent you from being sick from covid but can't prevent you from carry the virus around.

  19. #19
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    Every day another Thread with the same ridiculous claims. I will not bother pasting data, or links since it seems to have no effect on those who have already made their minds.
    Thank god those making the claims are not the ones making policy decisions.
    I predict that unless the virus mutates and changes the current vaccine projections, by this spring travel restrictions for those vaccinated will be either reduced or eliminated.
    The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up.

  20. #20
    Thailand Expat
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    Quote Originally Posted by lom View Post
    If you are waiting for a vaccine that creates an invisible shield around you then you can wait forever.
    A vaccine can only prevent you from being sick from covid but can't prevent you from carry the virus around.
    It's strange how people tend to exaggerate the opposite view to easily discard it, no invisible shield is expected, obviously, but as observed with other vaccines it prevents you from being infected (again), and thus far less likely to pass the disease around...apply this to a significant part of the population and the disease can't spread apart from the occasional hotspot of unvaccinated people clusters. So yes past a certain percentage of the population being vaccinated, a vaccine is supposed to prevent spreading the disease it's designed for.

    Here with the various strains (already existing or yet to come), I doubt being vaccinated this early in the crisis would provide any guarantee the traveler is safe from spreading the disease. Studies about efficiency against all the strains and the side-effects need to be conducted before making any global travel policy and health policy decisions.
    Last edited by Farang Ky Ay; 03-02-2021 at 09:01 PM.

  21. #21
    กงเกวียนกำเกวียน HuangLao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai View Post
    Every day another Thread with the same ridiculous claims. I will not bother pasting data, or links since it seems to have no effect on those who have already made their minds.
    Thank god those making the claims are not the ones making policy decisions.
    I predict that unless the virus mutates and changes the current vaccine projections, by this spring travel restrictions for those vaccinated will be either reduced or eliminated.
    That's quite a distinct possibility [per your third sentence]. I believe general travel will open up sooner than might be expected.

    Remembering, that all the scientific/health experts [epidemiologists, immunologists, virologist and related fields] are working/researching this shit - including the shift in mutations and variants - and type of vaccine.
    Largely, the current debate and misinformation/real studies regarding the vaccinated and transmission kinda still foggy -


    Umm.....just today, there was a report based on an extensive study by the AstraZeneca Vaccine folks [still in third stage trial] in cooperation with the Moderna Vaccine [already in use] that they found a 67 percentile of those vaccinated had a insignificant transmission rate.

    Yet, still are broad expertise circles that suggest that the vaccinated can pick up the virus and be actively contagious....the vaccine protects the individual from being ill but doesn't prevent one from still being contagious. Until studies prove otherwise, this is where they stand. These mindsets might modify themselves soon, as new scientific research is concluded or revealed. Or not...

    There is so much information and counterinformation from every area of scientific study - difficult to keep up.

    Of course, everyone's an expert - especially when derived from the interwebs.
    Heard from a third cousin that heard it from a friend that was reading posts from an obscure forum.....and so on and so forth.

    Cheers to all.
    Stay healthy.

  22. #22
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai View Post
    I predict that unless the virus mutates and changes the current vaccine projections,
    Allegedly there are already mutations of the original virus, there have been for a year. What the vaccine producing companies "project" is already being suspected as somewhat less than their previously stated, "anticipated" results.

  23. #23
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farang Ky Ay View Post
    I did say that any vaccine's goal is to prevent people from catching the disease and spreading it to other.
    And that's why I'm highly doubtful about a "vaccine" that doesn't prevent either, especially when the death rate of the disease is so low.
    The vaccines do prevent infection. That's what efficacy means.

    This is called vaccine efficacy. For example, Pfizer/BioNTech reported an efficacy of 95% for the COVID-19 vaccine. This means a 95% reduction in new cases of the disease in the vaccine group compared with the placebo group.
    And by doing that it reduces the spread.

    You're not very good at this science stuff are you?

  24. #24
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farang Ky Ay View Post
    Studies about efficiency against all the strains and the side-effects need to be conducted before making any global travel policy and health policy decisions.
    That is exactly what is happening, numbnuts.

  25. #25
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    Allegedly there are already mutations of the original virus, there have been for a year. What the vaccine producing companies "project" is already being suspected as somewhat less than their previously stated, "anticipated" results.
    What the fuck is that waffle supposed to mean?

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