Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 54
  1. #26
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    96,555
    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    Some may consider these initiatives currently being formulated by other financial regulators, as similar to the Chinese banking regulator/ government's efforts.
    They would if they were snivelling chinky sycophants.

    Normal people, however, realise that Mr. Shithole's sudden interest in "regulating" Ma's business started when he decided to criticise Mr. Shithole.

  2. #27
    Thailand Expat
    panama hat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Last Online
    21-10-2023 @ 08:08 AM
    Location
    Way, Way South of the border now - thank God!
    Posts
    32,680
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Normal people, however, realise that Mr. Shithole's sudden interest in "regulating" Ma's business started when he decided to criticise Mr. Shithole.
    Seriously, who can't see that

  3. #28
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    96,555
    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    Seriously, who can't see that
    Hoohoo and, when he realises he has to yelp in unison, Klondick.

  4. #29
    I Amn't In Jail PlanK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Last Online
    Today @ 05:54 PM
    Location
    Tezza's Balcony
    Posts
    6,934
    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    Some may consider these initiatives currently being formulated by other financial regulators, as similar to the Chinese banking regulator/ government's efforts.
    No. Tthat quote was about US trying to regulate, or to more precise, badly categorise digital assets, blockchain & DLT. What China is doing is something closer to the Anti-trust actions of the US & EU against the tech giants.

  5. #30
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Last Online
    Today @ 08:43 PM
    Location
    Where troubles melt like lemon drops
    Posts
    25,222
    Quote Originally Posted by Plan B View Post
    I don't know what all that means.
    Where did you study the subject last night?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plan B View Post
    No. Tthat quote was about US trying to regulate, or to more precise, badly categorise digital assets, blockchain & DLT. What China is doing is something closer to the Anti-trust actions of the US & EU against the tech giants.

  6. #31
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    96,555
    Quote Originally Posted by Plan B View Post
    No. Tthat quote was about US trying to regulate, or to more precise, badly categorise digital assets, blockchain & DLT. What China is doing is something closer to the Anti-trust actions of the US & EU against the tech giants.
    No, what chinastan is doing is punishing Jack Ma for criticising Mr. Shithole.

    Sheesh, isn't it obvious?

  7. #32
    I Amn't In Jail PlanK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Last Online
    Today @ 05:54 PM
    Location
    Tezza's Balcony
    Posts
    6,934
    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    Where did you study the subject last night?

    The internut.


    I posted that link in the crypto thread because... It's about crypto.
    Shocking!!!!! I know.

  8. #33
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Last Online
    Today @ 08:43 PM
    Location
    Where troubles melt like lemon drops
    Posts
    25,222
    Explainer: Ant's rise from payment to lending empire

    Updated 19:41, 18-Nov-2020

    By Liu Wenbo

    "When Ant Group's dual listing in both Shanghai and Hong Kong hit the pause button, the world's biggest IPO in history by a wide margin met its Waterloo in a real sense.

    Over the past decade, Ant has changed the way Chinese people interact with money. The company's Alipay app has served as an indispensable payment tool for some 730 million monthly active users nationwide and a platform for obtaining microloans and purchasing insurance and investment products. All these speak volumes for Ant's consequential role in the world's second-largest economy.

    Fledgling Ant

    Previously known as Ant Financial, the Hangzhou-based company started out as a fintech arm established by Alibaba Group in 2004 and has operated as an online payments processor called Alipay since then. Alibaba worked in tandem with ICBC, China's biggest commercial bank, to develop this platform in order to facilitate online shopping on Jack Ma's e-commerce platform Taobao.

    Alipay is China's equivalent to PayPal to guarantee the security of online transactions. The buyer sends the remittances to the Alipay account, and Alipay informs the seller for shipment. When the buyer receives the product and confirms the delivery, Alipay will remit the payment to the seller at once. The mode works well in China. Alipay overtook PayPal as the world's largest mobile payment platform in 2013.

    But regulators did not put Alipay on the supervision list of banks in that they hammered away at bolstering competition and innovation in the industry. Aside from this, it is a far cry from traditional banks long been criticized for their high threshold for issuing loans, lack of investment options, and low efficacy in providing banking services.

    A noteworthy event etched in Ant's growth trajectory is Yu'e Bao, the money market fund distributed on the company's payment network. It is managed by Tianhong Asset Management, which is 51 percent controlled by the then Ant Group.

    It was originally set up in 2013 by the e-commerce giant Alibaba to help users of its online payment platform Alipay invest with their idle cash. Its innovative technology also allows online shoppers to pay directly by cashing out funds.

    Right following the tail of the Chinese New Year in 2014, Yu'e Bao, which had been established for nine months, proclaimed that it had raised some 500 billion yuan, which put Tianhong Asset Management on the map in the turn of a hand.

    However, the emergence of Yu'e Bao made the bankers a little bit embarrassed in that 90 percent of its funds were agreement deposits lying in bank accounts, but a great many depositors had begun to move away from banks and settled on Yu'e Bao as their savings' shelter due to relatively high profitability, liquidity, and convenience.
    "

    This means that banks need to cooperate with Alibaba on the one hand and launch similar products to fight against it on the other. How to supervise Alipay and Ant Financial had become a hot topic in the financial world.

    Lending empire


    In the meantime, Ant employed the asset-based securities (ABS) to fund quick consumer loans, or rather, based on the assets owned by Huabei and Bibai, funds were raised through the issuance of bonds in the capital market with the expected returns as a guarantee.

    It soon erected an empire connecting the second-largest economy's borrowers and lenders via offering short-term loans credited within minutes. It has resorted to artificial intelligence and all sorts of high-end techniques to propel a variety of services, from payments and loans to insurance and wealth management.

    Wind data showed that in 2017, the ABS issued by the two microloan companies reached to the tune of 269.2 billion yuan, compared with 49 billion yuan from the preceding year. The enlarged credit scale laid the foundation for further profit potential.

    After unrelenting efforts and fund injection made into offline payment, transportation, and other fields in real earnest, Ant's user growth and activity were saliently improved, and its open platform strategy began to take effect.
    According to the prospectus, the behemoth's mobile payment app Alipay boasted 731 million monthly active users as of end-September this year, with transaction volume to the tune of 118 trillion yuan during the 12 months through to the same month.

    The bulk of Ant Group's revenue is contributed by its "Credittech" business operating an array of loan services targeting individuals and merchants, with the former in particular. Credittech revenue surged 59.5 percent from the year-earlier period in the six months ending June this year to 28.6 billion yuan, occupying 39.4 percent of its total revenue in the interim.
    Credittech's products comprise Huabei, a virtual consumer credit card service, Jiebei, an online cash loan targeting individuals, and Mybank, an online lender serving small and medium-sized businesses (SMB). The lending empire said in a statement that the consumer credit balance of its loan businesses stood at 1.7 trillion yuan, and the SMB credit balance settled on 400 billion yuan as of end-June.

    Unlike traditional banks, when Ant is engaged in the banking business, it is almost free from regulatory restrictions in areas such as loan-to-deposit ratio, capital adequacy ratio, and non-performing loan ratio. "If there is no opportune threshold, its lending activities may accumulate higher risks to the financial system, not to mention its financial derivatives with a leverage ratio of tens or even 100 times," industry insiders noted.

    What's even more alarming is that the average annual interest rate of these consumer loans is about 15 percent, which is a step away from the 15.4 percent bottom line of the highest annual interest rate for private loans stipulated by the Chinese regulators.

    Put finance under regulation


    Chinese authorities may have realized that an unregulated fintech sector growing exponentially at the expense of the incumbents could have provoked a domestic financial market relying on a state-owned banking system that employs a large portion of the country's population, which is unquestionably detrimental to the real economy.
    Vice Finance Minister Zou Jiayi said at the Bund Summit on October 24 that fintech hasn't changed the nature of finance relying on credit and conducting leverage, and fintech firms must not be allowed to dodge regulation.

    On November 2, China's financial regulators conducted a rare joint regulatory talk with Jack Ma and top executives of Ant Group. In the evening that day, the China Banking and Insurance Regulatory Commission and the People's Bank of China went on record as saying they had set about seeking public opinions on the interim measures for supervising online small lending.
    Although the measures are not only specifically aimed at Ant, the combo boxing paired with the regulatory talk still spells out in sharp detail that the tycoon's lending business has ushered in the first year of stringent supervision.

    In accordance with the draft rules, a microloan lender's balance of financing accumulated via issuing standard credit assets such as bonds and asset-backed securities should by no means exceed four times the size of its net assets.
    The balance of online microloans issued to individuals shall not exceed the 300,000 yuan threshold (44,836 US dollars) and must not surpass one-third of the average annual income of the borrowers in the last three years, which points to the fact that individuals with no stable income or proof of income may not get online microloans from these lenders.

    It also requires online small lenders to provide at least 30 percent of any loans they fund jointly with banks. This will unquestionably push microloan lenders to cut back on their financial leverage, industry insiders said.

    After the Shanghai Stock Exchange announced on Tuesday evening the postponement of Ant Group's listing on the Nasdaq-style STAR Market, the fintech giant announced later on the same day the suspension of its listing in Hong Kong.

    This may also mean that the company has to conduct self-adjustment and review from the inside out to let the tech be tech and put finance under supervision."

    Explainer: Ant's rise from payment to lending empire - CGTN
    Last edited by OhOh; 11-01-2021 at 11:53 AM.
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

  9. #34
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    96,555
    Translation: Chinky state propaganda tries to convince the world that Ma was not shat on for having a go at Mr. Shithole.

    And what is with changing the name from CCTV to CGTN?

    Do they think we didn't notice?


  10. #35
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Last Online
    Today @ 08:43 PM
    Location
    Where troubles melt like lemon drops
    Posts
    25,222
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Translation
    A 2 minute read and fact check, outstanding work. Or your unfortunate China posting excitement, a premature ejaculation, again.

    I'm sure there are TCM (Traditional Chinese medicine) herbs, ground up bugs and sweet liquids, available to help you.

    Here is a link to an online translator,available for a number of systems, you may find useful:

    Mate Translate – translator, dictionary – Get this Extension for �� Firefox (en-US)

    Waiting for MK's RFA propaganda to assist your "fact checking", maybe delayed:

    Voice of America CEO Accused Of Fraud, Misuse Of Office All In One Week

    In A Single Week, VOA Chief Accused Of Fraud, Propaganda And Misuse of Office : NPR

    QUOTE=harrybarracuda;4206984]And what is with changing the name from CCTV to CGTN?[/QUOTE]
    Possibly "somebody" became the new owner.
    Last edited by OhOh; 11-01-2021 at 12:21 PM.

  11. #36
    Thailand Expat lom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    on my way
    Posts
    11,453
    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    Explainer: Ant's rise from payment to lending empire
    It doesn't explain why Jack Ma has not been seen in public for the two month that has passed since the article was written.

  12. #37
    Thailand Expat
    panama hat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Last Online
    21-10-2023 @ 08:08 AM
    Location
    Way, Way South of the border now - thank God!
    Posts
    32,680
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Translation: Chinky state propaganda tries to convince the world that Ma was not shat on for having a go at Mr. Shithole.

    And what is with changing the name from CCTV to CGTN?

    Do they think we didn't notice?
    They think everyone is as unquestioning as WahWah and Loondyke

    Quote Originally Posted by lom View Post
    It doesn't explain why Jack Ma has not been seen in public for the two month that has passed since the article was written.
    He's on holiday . . . with the Uighurs

  13. #38
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Last Online
    Today @ 08:43 PM
    Location
    Where troubles melt like lemon drops
    Posts
    25,222
    Quote Originally Posted by lom View Post
    It doesn't explain why
    My apologies it was reply to

    Quote Originally Posted by Plan B View Post
    I posted that link in the crypto thread because...

  14. #39
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    96,555
    The addition of the "G" to Chinastan's state television network obviously means they broadcast that fucking horseshit all over the world now.

    They should have rebranded it "MSGN".

  15. #40
    Thailand Expat
    Little Chuchok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Online
    26-03-2024 @ 02:28 PM
    Posts
    10,025
    Subscribe to read | Financial Times



    Beijing orders Chinese media to censor coverage of Alibaba probe.Directive to restrict reporting comes as speculation mounts over whereabouts of Jack Ma. Jack Ma, one of China’s richest people, has not been seen in public since he made a speech criticising the country’s state-owned banks and financial regulators in October


    JANUARY 8

    China’s government has told the country’s media to censor reporting on an antitrust probe into tech group Alibaba, whose founder Jack Ma has disappeared from public view as misfortunes mount for his business empire, according to people familiar with the matter.

    The move by authorities to exert control over the media coverage of the prominent group’s woes shows that the issue has become a matter of national political sensitivity in China.Beijing has cracked down in recent months on Mr Ma’s business empire. The $37bn initial public offering of Alibaba’s payments affiliate Ant Group was cancelled by authorities at the last minute in November, while the following month, competition regulators announced an anti-monopoly investigation into Alibaba.In his last public appearance in October, Mr Ma, one of the country’s richest people, made a speech criticising China’s state-owned banks and financial regulators.

    At the end of December, the Chinese government’s propaganda arm directed media outlets to “strictly invoke” the official line on the antitrust investigation into Alibaba and to “not make changes or engage in extended analysis without permission”.The fact that this time [Mr Ma] is getting into trouble with the Chinese state likely has high politics in the backgroundXiao Qiang, University of California at Berkeley“If any company announcements oppose the official stance, do not publish, do not re-post, do not quote foreign media,” the directive said, according to two people who read it.

    Government mouthpiece the People’s Daily has criticised China’s tech industry for pursuing “ever-higher market concentration”, saying that increasing market supervision is important for the healthy development of the economy.“This directive is severe and unusual,” said Xiao Qiang, a research scientist at the University of California at Berkeley School of Information. “The language [of the directive] is quite similar to the directives on ‘very important political event’ reports such as the trial of Bo Xilai,” he added, referring to the disgraced former politician jailed for life for corruption.“The investments of Ma’s companies are directly associated with some of China's most powerful political families. The fact that this time he is getting into trouble with the Chinese state likely has high politics in the background, not just because he made one speech which may have hit Xi [Jinping, China’s president] or some other party official's nerve,” said Mr Xiao.

    Mr Xi was involved in the decision to halt Ant’s IPO, according to people close to events. Alibaba’s shares have fallen by about 30 per cent in the weeks since.“I think Beijing is still afraid of Alibaba to a degree . . . The government thinks it’s being challenged,” a state media employee said.Unofficial media in China, such as online blogs, have continued to speculate on Mr Ma’s whereabouts, although several have been censored.His empire has come under the scrutiny of several government departments since Ant’s IPO, which would have been the world’s biggest ever, was scuppered by regulators.

    In addition to the antitrust investigation into Alibaba, China’s central bank plans to carve out and directly regulate Ant’s consumer-lending unit and other parts of its fintech empire, according to people briefed on the discussions.RecommendedNews in-depthAnt GroupChina plots ‘rectification’ drive to bring Jack Ma’s Ant Group to heel.

    The crackdown on Mr Ma has raised concerns among investors and entrepreneurs that the policy moves go beyond regulation and are more about politics and showing the tech billionaire who is the ultimate boss.In November, the vice-chair of the state propaganda arm told a conference of Chinese media outlets to “resolutely prevent the risk of capital controlling public opinion”.Last month, Alibaba-backed media platform Huxiu was made to halt its operations for a month after publishing an editorial that warned against excessive punishment of China’s tech groups.The editorial argued that US business monopolies had helped the country achieve global market dominance, while China’s tech firms were not large enough to warrant antitrust probes.“When it comes to Chinese companies taking on the world, one cannot rely solely on Huawei, but also Tencent, Alibaba, ByteDance, Baidu, Xiaomi, BYD,” it concluded, referring to some of China’s leading technology companies.

  16. #41
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    96,555
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Chuchok View Post
    Subscribe to read | Financial Times



    Beijing orders Chinese media to censor coverage of Alibaba probe.Directive to restrict reporting comes as speculation mounts over whereabouts of Jack Ma. Jack Ma, one of China’s richest people, has not been seen in public since he made a speech criticising the country’s state-owned banks and financial regulators in October


    JANUARY 8

    China’s government has told the country’s media to censor reporting on an antitrust probe into tech group Alibaba, whose founder Jack Ma has disappeared from public view as misfortunes mount for his business empire, according to people familiar with the matter.

    The move by authorities to exert control over the media coverage of the prominent group’s woes shows that the issue has become a matter of national political sensitivity in China.Beijing has cracked down in recent months on Mr Ma’s business empire. The $37bn initial public offering of Alibaba’s payments affiliate Ant Group was cancelled by authorities at the last minute in November, while the following month, competition regulators announced an anti-monopoly investigation into Alibaba.In his last public appearance in October, Mr Ma, one of the country’s richest people, made a speech criticising China’s state-owned banks and financial regulators.

    At the end of December, the Chinese government’s propaganda arm directed media outlets to “strictly invoke” the official line on the antitrust investigation into Alibaba and to “not make changes or engage in extended analysis without permission”.The fact that this time [Mr Ma] is getting into trouble with the Chinese state likely has high politics in the backgroundXiao Qiang, University of California at Berkeley“If any company announcements oppose the official stance, do not publish, do not re-post, do not quote foreign media,” the directive said, according to two people who read it.

    Government mouthpiece the People’s Daily has criticised China’s tech industry for pursuing “ever-higher market concentration”, saying that increasing market supervision is important for the healthy development of the economy.“This directive is severe and unusual,” said Xiao Qiang, a research scientist at the University of California at Berkeley School of Information. “The language [of the directive] is quite similar to the directives on ‘very important political event’ reports such as the trial of Bo Xilai,” he added, referring to the disgraced former politician jailed for life for corruption.“The investments of Ma’s companies are directly associated with some of China's most powerful political families. The fact that this time he is getting into trouble with the Chinese state likely has high politics in the background, not just because he made one speech which may have hit Xi [Jinping, China’s president] or some other party official's nerve,” said Mr Xiao.

    Mr Xi was involved in the decision to halt Ant’s IPO, according to people close to events. Alibaba’s shares have fallen by about 30 per cent in the weeks since.“I think Beijing is still afraid of Alibaba to a degree . . . The government thinks it’s being challenged,” a state media employee said.Unofficial media in China, such as online blogs, have continued to speculate on Mr Ma’s whereabouts, although several have been censored.His empire has come under the scrutiny of several government departments since Ant’s IPO, which would have been the world’s biggest ever, was scuppered by regulators.

    In addition to the antitrust investigation into Alibaba, China’s central bank plans to carve out and directly regulate Ant’s consumer-lending unit and other parts of its fintech empire, according to people briefed on the discussions.RecommendedNews in-depthAnt GroupChina plots ‘rectification’ drive to bring Jack Ma’s Ant Group to heel.

    The crackdown on Mr Ma has raised concerns among investors and entrepreneurs that the policy moves go beyond regulation and are more about politics and showing the tech billionaire who is the ultimate boss.In November, the vice-chair of the state propaganda arm told a conference of Chinese media outlets to “resolutely prevent the risk of capital controlling public opinion”.Last month, Alibaba-backed media platform Huxiu was made to halt its operations for a month after publishing an editorial that warned against excessive punishment of China’s tech groups.The editorial argued that US business monopolies had helped the country achieve global market dominance, while China’s tech firms were not large enough to warrant antitrust probes.“When it comes to Chinese companies taking on the world, one cannot rely solely on Huawei, but also Tencent, Alibaba, ByteDance, Baidu, Xiaomi, BYD,” it concluded, referring to some of China’s leading technology companies.

    But... But....

    Jack Ma Disappeared Alibaba Chief is missing-untitled-jpg

  17. #42
    Thailand Expat
    panama hat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Last Online
    21-10-2023 @ 08:08 AM
    Location
    Way, Way South of the border now - thank God!
    Posts
    32,680
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Chuchok View Post
    China’s government has told the country’s media to censor reporting
    Jack Ma Disappeared Alibaba Chief is missing-untitled-jpg

    Hehe

  18. #43
    Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Last Online
    01-08-2023 @ 11:33 PM
    Posts
    510
    Rumor (Twitter) has it that Jack Ma is safe and sound in Hangzhou. Lucky guy?

    Jack Ma Disappeared Alibaba Chief is missing-jack-ma-back-png
    Jack Ma was China’s most vocal billionaire. Then he vanished | WIRED UK

  19. #44
    Thailand Expat Saint Willy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Last Online
    30-04-2022 @ 02:44 AM
    Posts
    11,204
    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    Explainer: Ant's rise from payment to lending empire - CGTN
    Another quality, unbiased news source

  20. #45
    Thailand Expat Backspin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    11,260
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealKW View Post
    Another quality, unbiased news source
    What a dumb topic to say sources bro. Every news source is biased. It's just that some people know this and some don't as Russias chief "propagandist" says


  21. #46
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    96,555
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealKW View Post
    Another quality, unbiased news source
    New name, old chinese state mouthpiece.

  22. #47
    Thailand Expat Saint Willy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Last Online
    30-04-2022 @ 02:44 AM
    Posts
    11,204
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    New name, old chinese state mouthpiece.
    Indeed. As you said, did they think we wouldnt notice? But then again, Socal.... so they have a point.



    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    Every news source is biased. It's just that some people know this and some don't as Russias chief "propagandist" says
    It's like Trump's comment "There's good people on both sides", conveniently forgetting that there is an entire continuum on that level of bias.

  23. #48
    Thailand Expat
    Klondyke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Last Online
    26-09-2021 @ 10:28 PM
    Posts
    10,105
    Jack Ma has disappointed - as Kim before him and his sister (even the very old Fidel had once disappointed GWB) .. Who is the next one?


    https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/...1456827719681?

  24. #49
    Thailand Expat
    panama hat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Last Online
    21-10-2023 @ 08:08 AM
    Location
    Way, Way South of the border now - thank God!
    Posts
    32,680
    Keep believing the bullshit fed to you by totalitarian regimes . . . that's how you grew up and that's how you'll die.

  25. #50
    Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Last Online
    01-08-2023 @ 11:33 PM
    Posts
    510
    So it looks like a couple people here actually read Global Times and consider it a legit information source. Hmmmm.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •