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  1. #1
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    India soldiers killed in clash with Chinese forces



    A Chinese soldier stands guard on the Chinese side of the border in 2008Three Indian soldiers have been killed in a clash with Chinese forces in Ladakh in the disputed Kashmir region.
    The deaths are the first in the disputed border area in at least 45 years, and follow rising military tensions between the nuclear powers.
    The Indian army said senior military officials from both sides were "meeting to defuse the situation", adding that both sides suffered casualties.
    An Indian army spokesman said the dead were one officer and two soldiers.
    China did not confirm any casualties, but accused India of crossing the border in the Galwan Valley.
    Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian said India had crossed the border twice on Monday, "provoking and attacking Chinese personnel, resulting in serious physical confrontation between border forces on the two sides", AFP news agency reported.
    Both sides insist no bullet has been fired in four decades, and the Indian army said on Tuesday that "no shots were fired" in this latest skirmish.


    Local media outlets reported that the Indian soldiers were "beaten to death" but there was no confirmation from the military.
    China's Global Times newspaper reported that "solemn representations" had been made with India over the incident.
    The clash comes amid rising tensions between the two powers, which have brawled along the border in recent weeks but not exchanged any gunfire.
    India has accused China of sending thousands of troops into Ladakh's Galwan valley and says China occupies 38,000sq km (about 14,700sq miles) of its territory. Several rounds of talks in the last three decades have failed to resolve the boundary disputes.
    The deaths reported on Tuesday are believed to be the first in decades in a confrontation between the two powers. They have fought only one war so far, in 1962, when India suffered a humiliating defeat.
    In May, dozens of Indian and Chinese soldiers exchanged physical blows in a clash on the border in the north-eastern state of Sikkim. And in 2017, the two countries clashed in the region after China tried to extend a border road through a disputed plateau.


    Their armies - two of the world's largest - come face to face at many points. The two sides are separated by the poorly demarcated Line of Actual Control (LAC). Rivers, lakes and snowcaps mean the line can shift, provoking confrontation.
    Image copyrightPRESS INFORMATION BUREAUImage captionTensions have risen over a road built by India in LadakhThere are several reasons why tensions are rising now - but competing strategic goals lie at the root, and both sides blame each other.
    India has built a new road in what experts say is the most remote and vulnerable area along the LAC in Ladakh. And India's decision to ramp up infrastructure seems to have infuriated Beijing.
    The road could boost Delhi's capability to move men and material rapidly in case of a conflict.
    India also disputes part of Kashmir - an ethnically diverse Himalayan region covering about 140,000sq km - with Pakistan.


    Over the past week, Indian media have been reporting that troops from both sides had been gradually moving back from their stand-off positions, and that efforts were under way to de-escalate the tensions along the border. So it will come as a surprise to many to hear of a violent clash in which three Indian soldiers were killed.
    The last time the two sides exchanged any gunfire along the border was 1975, when four Indian soldiers were killed in a remote pass in north-eastern state of Arunachal Pradesh.
    The details of the latest skirmish, and the emergency measures being taken to defuse it, are still unclear.
    Whatever the result, the latest incident is likely to trigger a fresh wave of anti-China sentiments in India.
    It will also present daunting foreign policy and security challenges to Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his government, which is struggling to contain a surge of Covid-19 infections and revive an economy which looks headed for recession.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-53061476

  2. #2
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    As I reported in HooHoo's "Eurasia" thread, the latest score is India 3 - Chinastan 5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    As I reported in HooHoo's "Eurasia" thread, the latest score is India 3 - Chinastan 5.
    Indian army are now reporting 20 Indian soldiers dead.

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    Mainland Chinee seem to get infuriated at the drop of a hat...

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    There are always lots of unknowns in disputed territory situations, but if I had to decide without knowing anything at all about the details of the dispute, it would be in light of traditional Chinese brash intrusion and expansion, and hand it over to India.

    Not because of the virus, but because that's what the Chinese do, nibble here nibble there, best way nick a country or island or chunk of territory and worst way just a few bits.

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    ...Indian forces stand no chance against those of China...unless headwagging has been weaponized...

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    Damn Covid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabir View Post
    that's what the Chinese do, nibble here nibble there, best way nick a country or island or chunk of territory and worst way just a few bits.
    Exactly. They excel at the thin end of the wedge.

  9. #9
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    ...Indian forces stand no chance against those of China...unless headwagging has been weaponized...
    They're probably using Lee Enfield .303's against Chinky Uzi knockoffs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    They're probably using Lee Enfield .303's against Chinky Uzi knockoffs.
    In this incident reports say no weapons were fired. It seems the victims were beaten to death.

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    Yeah, 20 dead in hand to hand combat, jesus christ what a stoush that must have been. Chinas not saying but surely some chinkies copped it as well.

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    The Chinese may have had sticks, tonfas or nunchakus.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Damn Covid.
    Yeah.
    That must be it.....


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    Quote Originally Posted by Latindancer
    tonfas or nunchakus
    Because they've recently visited Japan?

    Can't keep your racial stereotypes straight?

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    20 dead in hand to hand combat
    Wolf Warriors!

  16. #16
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    One can only hope they have both committed to losing, say, 20% of their armed forces in hand to hand combat before escalating to other weapons.

    That should keep them busy for a few years.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chittychangchang View Post
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-53061476
    Quote Originally Posted by English Noodles View Post
    20 Indian soldiers dead
    Quote Originally Posted by Latindancer View Post
    They excel at the thin end of the wedge.
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    They're probably using Lee Enfield .303's
    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo View Post
    Yeah, 20 dead in hand to hand combat
    A BBC report, some opinions from our resident experts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo View Post
    Chinas not saying but surely some chinkies copped it as well.
    It depends if you actually look for competant sources.

    Compare and contrast BBC with two Chinese reports.

    India urged to halt border violation

    By Zhou Jin | China Daily | Updated: 2020-06-17 07:05

    "China urged India on Tuesday to stop all infringements and provocative actions and work with China to return to the correct track of dialogue and talks to resolve disputes.

    Senior Colonel Zhang Shuili, spokesman for the Western Theater Command of the People's Liberation Army, said that there was a serious violation of commitment when Indian troops on Monday night crossed the line of control at the Galwan Valley region at the border area of China and India and engaged in provocative attacks, which resulted in "fierce physical confrontations and casualties".

    Indian border troops seriously violated accords between the two countries and the consensus reached at talks between high-ranking officers at the group army commander level of both sides, Zhang said in a statement on Tuesday evening.

    He stressed that the region has always been Chinese territory and that India's actions seriously harm bilateral military relations.

    "We demand that the Indian side strictly restrain its front-line troops, immediately stop all infringements and provocative actions, and work together with China to return to the correct track of dialogue and talks to resolve differences," he said.

    China and India have been locked in a standoff in the border areas for weeks, and the two countries have tried to maintain communication via diplomatic and military channels to ease the tension.

    Chinese and Indian military officials held commander-level talks earlier this month at the border personnel meeting point at Moldo to discuss ways to resolve matters related to the recent border situation and safeguard peace and stability in the border area."

    India urged to halt border violation - World - Chinadaily.com.cn

    India needs to rid two misjudgments on border situation: Global Times editorial


    Source:Global Times Published: 2020/6/17 0:03:40

    Chinese and Indian troops were engaged in a serious physical clash in Galwan Valley on Monday. The Indian side said three Indian soldiers were killed. The Chinese military confirmed that clashes between the two sides have led to casualties, but did not release the exact figures.

    This has been the most serious clash between Chinese and Indian soldiers so far. Indian media reported this is the first time since 1975 that soldiers died in border conflicts between the two countries.

    India has been building extensive infrastructure facilities along the border, and forcibly built part of the facilities in the Chinese side of the Line of Actual Control regardless of bilateral divergences over the border disputes. The two sides went into repeated physical clashes as Chinese soldiers tried to stop their Indian counterparts.

    The arrogance and recklessness of the Indian side is the main reason for the consistent tensions along China-India borders. In recent years, New Delhi has adopted a tough stance on border issues, which is mainly resulted from two misjudgments. It believes that China does not want to sour ties with India because of increasing strategic pressure from the US, therefore China lacks the will to hit back provocations from the Indian side. In addition, some Indian people mistakenly believe their country's military is more powerful than China's. These misperceptions affect the rationality of Indian opinion and add pressure to India's China policy.

    The US has wooed India with its Indo-Pacific Strategy, which adds to the abovementioned misjudgment of some Indian elite. In 2017 when Indian troops crossed the line and entered the Doklam area to openly challenge China's territorial sovereignty, their craze was caused by such arrogance. Such an aggressive posture has won praise from the Indian public, which means that the Indian elite's mentality toward China is unhealthy and dangerous.

    China does not want to clash with India and hopes to peacefully deal with bilateral border disputes. This is China's goodwill, not weakness. How could China sacrifice its sovereignty in exchange for peace and bow to threats from New Delhi?

    China and India are big countries. Peace and stability along border areas matter to both countries as well as to the region. New Delhi must be clear that the resources that the US would invest in China-India relations are limited. What the US would do is just extend a lever to India, which Washington can exploit to worsen India's ties with China, and make India dedicate itself to serving Washington's interests.

    The gap between China's and India's strength is clear. China does not want to turn border issues with India into a confrontation. This is goodwill and restraint from China. But China is confident in the situation at the border. It does not and will not create conflicts, but it fears no conflicts either. This policy is supported by both morality and strength. We will not trade our bottom line with anyone.

    The clash in the Galwan Valley this time has led to casualties on both sides, indicating China-India border tensions, amid constant frictions, may spiral out of control. We notice that the leadership of the two militaries has exercised restraint after the incident, indicating that both sides would like to handle the conflict peacefully and not let the conflict escalate. It is noteworthy that the Chinese side did not disclose the number of casualties of the Chinese military, a move that aims to avoid comparing and preventing confrontational sentiments from escalating.

    We would like to see tensions in the Galwan Valley subside. It is hoped that the Indian side can strengthen management of frontline troops and engineers, and adhere to the consensus reached between the leadership of the two militaries. It will benefit both sides if the situation cools down, and it needs the efforts of both Chinese and Indian frontline troops.

    On the China-India border issue, the Chinese public should trust the government and the People's Liberation Army. They will firmly safeguard China's territorial integrity and maintain national interests when dealing with border conflicts. China has the ability and wisdom to safeguard every inch of its land and will not let any strategic trick meet its end.

    India needs to rid two misjudgments on border situation: Global Times editorial - Global Times

    Jaw, Jaw or war war. it seems our TD experts above desire more dead soldiers.

    China suggests talking will bring a solution acceptable to both sides. If of course both sides are in control and not assisting another's plans.
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

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    ABC News in Oz just aid that they used fists, rocks and metal bars. And that despite the Chinese denials, Chinese forces were originally grouping above the Indian forces.

  19. #19
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    "We are China and no one could be prouder and if you dont believe us we'll yell a little louder"

    "We are China and no one........



  20. #20
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    ^...*cough*...I don't suppose you have an Indian version of that clip...

  21. #21
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    neither side wants this to escalate, so i'd bet that cooler heads are going to quickly prevail because they know there isn't any of the traditional leadership coming out of the UN, DC or london.

    i realize this is a decidedly western centric perspective, but i think it still holds true at this point in history.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    ^...*cough*...I don't suppose you have an Indian version of that clip...


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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    A BBC report, some opinions from our resident experts.


    It depends if you actually look for competant sources.

    Compare and contrast BBC with two Chinese reports.

    India urged to halt border violation

    By Zhou Jin | China Daily | Updated: 2020-06-17 07:05

    "China urged India on Tuesday to stop all infringements and provocative actions and work with China to return to the correct track of dialogue and talks to resolve disputes.

    Senior Colonel Zhang Shuili, spokesman for the Western Theater Command of the People's Liberation Army, said that there was a serious violation of commitment when Indian troops on Monday night crossed the line of control at the Galwan Valley region at the border area of China and India and engaged in provocative attacks, which resulted in "fierce physical confrontations and casualties".

    Indian border troops seriously violated accords between the two countries and the consensus reached at talks between high-ranking officers at the group army commander level of both sides, Zhang said in a statement on Tuesday evening.

    He stressed that the region has always been Chinese territory and that India's actions seriously harm bilateral military relations.

    "We demand that the Indian side strictly restrain its front-line troops, immediately stop all infringements and provocative actions, and work together with China to return to the correct track of dialogue and talks to resolve differences," he said.

    China and India have been locked in a standoff in the border areas for weeks, and the two countries have tried to maintain communication via diplomatic and military channels to ease the tension.

    Chinese and Indian military officials held commander-level talks earlier this month at the border personnel meeting point at Moldo to discuss ways to resolve matters related to the recent border situation and safeguard peace and stability in the border area."

    India urged to halt border violation - World - Chinadaily.com.cn

    India needs to rid two misjudgments on border situation: Global Times editorial


    Source:Global Times Published: 2020/6/17 0:03:40

    Chinese and Indian troops were engaged in a serious physical clash in Galwan Valley on Monday. The Indian side said three Indian soldiers were killed. The Chinese military confirmed that clashes between the two sides have led to casualties, but did not release the exact figures.

    This has been the most serious clash between Chinese and Indian soldiers so far. Indian media reported this is the first time since 1975 that soldiers died in border conflicts between the two countries.

    India has been building extensive infrastructure facilities along the border, and forcibly built part of the facilities in the Chinese side of the Line of Actual Control regardless of bilateral divergences over the border disputes. The two sides went into repeated physical clashes as Chinese soldiers tried to stop their Indian counterparts.

    The arrogance and recklessness of the Indian side is the main reason for the consistent tensions along China-India borders. In recent years, New Delhi has adopted a tough stance on border issues, which is mainly resulted from two misjudgments. It believes that China does not want to sour ties with India because of increasing strategic pressure from the US, therefore China lacks the will to hit back provocations from the Indian side. In addition, some Indian people mistakenly believe their country's military is more powerful than China's. These misperceptions affect the rationality of Indian opinion and add pressure to India's China policy.

    The US has wooed India with its Indo-Pacific Strategy, which adds to the abovementioned misjudgment of some Indian elite. In 2017 when Indian troops crossed the line and entered the Doklam area to openly challenge China's territorial sovereignty, their craze was caused by such arrogance. Such an aggressive posture has won praise from the Indian public, which means that the Indian elite's mentality toward China is unhealthy and dangerous.

    China does not want to clash with India and hopes to peacefully deal with bilateral border disputes. This is China's goodwill, not weakness. How could China sacrifice its sovereignty in exchange for peace and bow to threats from New Delhi?

    China and India are big countries. Peace and stability along border areas matter to both countries as well as to the region. New Delhi must be clear that the resources that the US would invest in China-India relations are limited. What the US would do is just extend a lever to India, which Washington can exploit to worsen India's ties with China, and make India dedicate itself to serving Washington's interests.

    The gap between China's and India's strength is clear. China does not want to turn border issues with India into a confrontation. This is goodwill and restraint from China. But China is confident in the situation at the border. It does not and will not create conflicts, but it fears no conflicts either. This policy is supported by both morality and strength. We will not trade our bottom line with anyone.

    The clash in the Galwan Valley this time has led to casualties on both sides, indicating China-India border tensions, amid constant frictions, may spiral out of control. We notice that the leadership of the two militaries has exercised restraint after the incident, indicating that both sides would like to handle the conflict peacefully and not let the conflict escalate. It is noteworthy that the Chinese side did not disclose the number of casualties of the Chinese military, a move that aims to avoid comparing and preventing confrontational sentiments from escalating.

    We would like to see tensions in the Galwan Valley subside. It is hoped that the Indian side can strengthen management of frontline troops and engineers, and adhere to the consensus reached between the leadership of the two militaries. It will benefit both sides if the situation cools down, and it needs the efforts of both Chinese and Indian frontline troops.

    On the China-India border issue, the Chinese public should trust the government and the People's Liberation Army. They will firmly safeguard China's territorial integrity and maintain national interests when dealing with border conflicts. China has the ability and wisdom to safeguard every inch of its land and will not let any strategic trick meet its end.

    India needs to rid two misjudgments on border situation: Global Times editorial - Global Times

    Jaw, Jaw or war war. it seems our TD experts above desire more dead soldiers.

    China suggests talking will bring a solution acceptable to both sides. If of course both sides are in control and not assisting another's plans.
    Chinadaily? fuckoff with that shit will you. Chinaliesandpropoganda you mean.
    They annexed 60 sq km of territory while the Indians had stopped patrols because of covid.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Latindancer View Post
    ABC News in Oz just aid that they used fists, rocks and metal bars. And that despite the Chinese denials, Chinese forces were originally grouping above the Indian forces.
    That is brutal. To beat a person into incapacity is already primeval. To go on to kill them is not exactly the warriors' code.
    What next, I wonder?

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    The hand-to-hand combat lasted hours, on steep, jagged terrain, with iron bars, rocks and fists. Neither side carried guns. Most of the soldiers killed in the worst fighting between India and China in 60 years lost their footing or were knocked from the narrow Himalayan ridge, plunging to their deaths.

    India has reacted with shock and caution to the loss of at least 20 soldiers on its disputed border with China, with images of the Chinese president, Xi Jinping, burned in Indian cities.


    In his first public comments on the dispute, prime minister Narendra Modi led a two-minute silence for the killed soldiers and said India would “defend every stone, every inch of its territory.”


    “I would like to assure the nation that the sacrifice of our jawans [troops] will not be in vain,” said Modi, speaking at a televised meeting of India’s chief ministers. “For us, the unity and sovereignty of the country is the most important.”


    A day after reports of the “violent face-off” in the western Himalayas emerged, Indian news outlets began naming some of the dead and a clearer picture started to build of what transpired on Monday night on the high, steep ridge lines above the fast-flowing Galwan River.
    The killings were sparked when a patrol of Indian soldiers encountered Chinese troops in a steep section of the mountainous region they believed the People’s Liberation Army had retreated from, in line with a 6 June disengagement agreement, sources in Delhi said.


    The two armies jostled and hand-to-hand fighting broke out – neither side armed in line with decades of tradition supposed to ward off the possibility of escalation between the nuclear-armed neighbours.


    Then an Indian commanding officer was pushed, fell from the narrow ridge and fell to his death in the gorge below.


    Reinforcements from the Indian side were summoned from a post about 2 miles away and eventually about 600 men were fighting with stones, iron rods and other makeshift weapons in near-total darkness for up to six hours, Indian government sources said, with most deaths on both sides occurring from soldiers falling or being knocked from mountain terrain.




    At least four more Indian soldiers were said to be in critical condition. Indian media outlets cited intelligence sources claiming up to 50 Chinese soldiers may have been killed in the melee but did not present the evidence. Chinese CCTV’s widely watched evening news broadcast made no mention of the border confrontation on Tuesday.


    In a phonecall on Wednesday night between the Chinese foreign minister, Wang Yi, and India’s minister for external affairs, Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, the two sides “agreed to deal fairly with the serious event” and continue with de-escalation, according to a statement by China’s foreign ministry.


    China also reportedly rebuked India, asking the government to control its troops and punish those responsible for the conflict.


    As photos and details of some of the Indian soldiers who died were circulated on Tuesday there were small demonstrations including in Bhopal in Madhya Pradesh state and in the Gujarati city Ahmedabad, where protesters burned pictures of Xi Jinping.




    Former Indian army officers argued in fiery television debates that China had unilaterally changed both the status quo on the border and the rules of engagement. “Somebody has to answer for 20 lives,” said retired air vice-marshal Manmohan Bahadur.


    But whereas violence in recent years linked to Pakistan has led to aggressive rhetoric and promises of swift retaliation from Indian leaders, Monday’s violence has so far drawn a much more muted response including from Modi.


    Analysts said the caution reflected both shock at the scale of the killing and the complexity of the relationship between the two Asian giants. “There is the larger picture of the asymmetries of power,” said Srikanth Kondapalli, a professor of Chinese studies at Jawaharlal Nehru University in Delhi. “China’s GDP is $14tn, India’s is less than $3tn. China spends nearly $220bn on the military but India spends $52bn.”


    He said Delhi would be considering whether to ask commanders on the ground to sort out the conflict with their Chinese counterparts, but would also be under pressure to escalate.


    The United Nations, EU and US government have expressed concern over the violence and urged restraint.


    Indian media have reported that talks between commanders have been held, and high-level Indian officials were meeting at the ministry of defence, India Today reported.


    Both countries’ militaries have blamed the other for the conflict.


    Beijing has refused to confirm any deaths on its side, but accused India of crossing the border twice and “provoking and attacking Chinese personnel”.


    The editor-in-chief of the state-run the Global Times, said he understood there had been Chinese casualties, but the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) wanted to avoid “stoking public mood” by comparing numbers.


    An editorial in the same paper said: “China does not want to turn border issues with India into a confrontation,” before blaming India for “arrogance and recklessness”.


    Both parties have been working towards de-escalation in recent weeks but the loss of life makes the situation even more complicated and precarious.


    Chinese state media has reported the PLA is conducting joint military exercises “aimed at the destruction of key hostile hubs in a high-elevation mountainous region”. The PLA Tibet Military Command conducted live fire drills with heavy artillery on Tuesday, with reports linking the PLA’s preparedness for high-elevation combat to the clashes with India.
    Soldiers fell to their deaths as India and China's troops fought with rocks | World news | The Guardian

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