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  1. #1
    Thailand Expat misskit's Avatar
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    China-India Border Tensions

    Recent tensions between India and China along the unmarked border in India’s northeastern region of Ladakh demonstrate Beijing’s continued intention to annex disputed areas and expand its influence in South Asia, the head of Tibet’s India-based exile government said this week.


    Thousands of troops from the nuclear-armed neighbors have faced off since May near Ladakh’s Pangong Lake, with Chinese troops rushing artillery and combat vehicles into the area after India was seen building a road nearby, according to Indian media reports.


    Both sides have now pulled back ahead of a new round of talks aimed at reducing tensions, Indian government sources said on Tuesday, with China’s foreign ministry saying on Wednesday that discussions between commanders in the two armies have already moved the issue toward a peaceful resolution.


    Indian media reported that Chinese and Indian armies have shifted forces back from three flash points high in eastern Ladakh, a part of India with a large Tibetan Buddhist population.


    The current face-off in Ladakh is only the latest in a series of flare-ups along China’s and India’s 2,200-mile-long undemarcated border, or Line of Actual Control, with Indian soldiers using their fists to block an attempt by Chinese troops on May 9 to cross into Indian territory at the Nakula pass in northern Sikkim.


    Meanwhile, in June 2017, India sent hundreds of troops into Bhutan to defend its ally against efforts by China to build a road southward into Doklam, an area claimed by both China and Bhutan. The stand-off continued for over two months and ended when both sides withdrew.


    Watching China’s repeated probes of Indian territory and defenses, India and the international community should remember the experience of Tibet, which was invaded by China in 1950 and finally taken over by force, Lobsang Sangay—president of Tibet’s India-based exile government, the Central Tibetan Administration—said in interviews this week.


    Promises by China of withdrawal from contested areas are often temporary and must be continually verified, Sangay said, speaking to Arnab Goswami of India’s Republic TV.


    “It is quite difficult to trust the Chinese regime. They say something and then do exactly the opposite,” Sangay said, adding, “They came [to Tibet] in the name of peace and prosperity for the Tibetan people, but ultimately the Chinese took away our country and independence, and we were driven into exile.”


    “India and the world should learn from Tibet’s experience with China,” Sangay said.


    'Tibet has been militarized'


    “When the Chinese government said they would build a road connecting China to Tibet, they promised us prosperity and stability,” Sangay said, speaking in an interview on Tuesday with Rahul Kanwal of India Today.


    “But that road was used to bring trucks of guns and tanks to occupy Tibet, and since that time that one road has become a hundred roads reaching all over the Tibetan plateau [right up to] the borders of India.”


    Six military airfields have now been built near Ladakh and the disputed northeastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh, and military-grade rail lines now connect Tibet’s Shigatse prefecture with the borders of Nepal, Sangay said.


    “So the whole Tibetan plateau has been militarized,” he said.


    Until Tibet’s status as a genuinely free and autonomous region is resolved, there will be even more border incursions by China into Ladakh, Sikkim, Bhutan, and Arunachal Pradesh, Sangay said.


    “Until the border changes from India-China back to India-Tibet, all of this will continue,” Sangay said. “The Indian government should say that for the security of India, Tibet needs to be free.”


    Origin of the problem


    “The establishment of Chinese control over Tibet is the origin of the problem,” agreed Manoj Joshi, a defense analyst at India’s Observer Reserve Foundation, speaking to RFA in an interview in May.


    Recalling a war fought on the border between India and China in 1962 in which hundreds were killed or wounded on both sides, Joshi said, “The Chinese have it much easier now that they have built roads and railways into Tibet.”


    “They can bring large numbers of troops up to the border now in a very short time,” he said.


    The installation by China of 5G wireless telecommunications equipment on Mount Everest, bordering Nepal, has meanwhile strengthened China’s ability to monitor and disrupt military communications in neighboring states, said S.N. Ravichandran—joint secretary of the Cyber Society of India—also speaking to RFA.


    “Not only India but other countries should be wary as well,” Ravichandran said.


    “What happens if military units in Sikkim and Ladakh are disrupted, and that’s where the concentrations [of forces] are building up?,” he asked.


    “This is of great strategic importance, and yes, India is aware of it. I think that the Indian military is aware of it and is taking measures,” he said.

    China-India Border Tensions Underscore Beijing’s Expansionist Intent, Says Tibetan Exile Government Leader

  2. #2
    Thailand Expat
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    Don't be coy MK, post the real source:

    Quote Originally Posted by misskit View Post
    Lobsang Sangay—president of Tibet’s India-based exile government, the Central Tibetan Administration—said in interviews this week.
    "
    Reported by RFA's Tibetan Service. Written in English by Richard Finney."

    www.rfa.org/english/news/tibet/border-06102020164040


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A more knowlegable opinion from an actual Indian.

    Standoff in Ladakh needs political solution

    Posted on June 10, 2020 by M. K. BHADRAKUMAR

    "The good thing about the nihilistic Indian media narratives — relentlessly negative — over the military standoff in eastern Ladakh is that the government largely disregarded them. Hopefully, a de-escalation of tensions is on cards. Nihilists and cynics are best shunned. Especially when they also happen to be Sinophobes with a tunnel vision of the contemporary world situation who blithely overlook that China is a major player in the superpower league.

    Some dominant narratives even demanded that Indian Army should give a ‘bloody nose’ to the Chinese PLA. The assumption appears to be that the current US-China tensions catapult India into a position of great strategic advantage at a time when China stands ‘isolated’ and its internal politics is in disarray.

    Unsurprisingly, some American analysts, who wielded influence in the Beltway in the bygone pre-Trump era, have also jumped into the fray to hustle India, counselling we shouldn’t waste anymore time to ‘join the rest of Asia in figuring out how to deal with the newest turn in China’s salami-slicing tactics, which now distinctively mark its trajectory as a rising power.’

    However, the Indian leadership held a steady line so far to seek a peaceful resolution of the tensions on the northern border. Over a month ago, when the Chinese build-up began, National Security Advisor Ajit Doval spotted it like ‘a cloud, as small as a man’s hand’, as the Bible says, and post-haste engaged with Chinese Politburo member Yang Jiechi, reportedly on May 6.

    No doubt an inflection point has been reached — a time of significant change in the direction of the curvature ahead for the Sino-Indian relationship. Significantly, Doval didn’t wait for President Trump’s mediatory offer (which sailed into view only three weeks later) to contact Beijing directly at the highest possible level next only to Xi Jinping.

    Trump said Washington had ‘informed both India and China that the United States is ready, willing and able to mediate or arbitrate their now raging border dispute.’

    Now, it is a stunning offer. By offering to mediate, Trump displayed his interest in being objective and impartial. He signalled he won’t take sides — stretching further, he doesn’t intend to wade into the India-China tensions as such or get entangled in it.


    The Indian analysts who are raring to give a bloody nose to the PLA — many of whom also happen to be cheerleaders of US-Indian ‘partnership’ — fail to understand the meaning of Trump’s mediatory offer. if India takes ‘police action’ (as Nehru once vowed), it will have consequences no less disastrous than what we faced six decades ago. Today, ‘police action’ against China means war with a superpower where India will not be at liberty to prescribe its parameters or timeline.

    Don’t our ‘China experts’ read newspapers? The prognosis worldwide is that India is cruising toward the epicentre of the Covid-19 pandemic, while on the other hand, the World Bank says the Indian economy is due to shrink by over 3 percent by the yearend.

    Besides, there is another side to all this — the unpredictability and inconstancy of US-China relations, which has profound implications for Indian policymaking.

    Prima facie, nothing would suit Trump better than to join his Secretary of State Mike Pompeo’s roadshow on the Chinese Communist Party and make India’s Ladakh tensions a golden opportunity to lock India in as a US ally to confront China. But Trump is disinterested. This can only mean that Trump takes a 360-degree view of the US-China relationship.


    Stephen Roach at Yale University, formerly Chairman of Morgan Stanley Asia, and a noted China specialist, wrote a thoughtful essay in Bloomberg yesterday how the tension between saving and the current deficit in the US economy is assuming a new criticality with the pandemic, as the crisis-related expansion of federal deficit is galloping away by far outstripping the fear-driven surge in personal saving.

    Roach sees a tipping point ahead and the domestic saving plunging — that is, if the US-China trade tensions effectively tax beleaguered US consumers, which, combined with a weaker dollar would make external funding of saving deficit impossible to sustain, especially if Trump indeed presses ahead with his ‘poorly timed wish for financial decoupling from China.’

    Quite obviously, Trump’s statement of May 29 on Actions Against China (which was, interestingly, made after the disclosure of his mediatory offer on Ladakh) was high on rhetoric while he actually followed up with only a few symbolic moves to ‘punish’ China — and he steered clear of any references to trade with China — so much so that the stock market got thrilled, taking it as signalling a potential easing of US-China trade tensions!

    Suffice to say, our narratives on China need to be co-related with the international environment. Even senior cabinet ministers began harbouring fanciful notions that US companies are exiting China in droves and heading toward India to set up production centres! Knowledgeable business friends of India in the US have had to step in to disabuse us of such notions.

    Sure, China is not having an easy time as it enters the big league in global politics. But that’s how it has been in history, as entrenched powers do their utmost to keep out aspiring powers. China has problems with not only the US but also with Europe. Nonetheless, a point has been reached where big powers realise that a modus vivendi with China has become necessary in a multilateral world order.

    When it comes to India’s predicament, the tragic downhill slide toward the 1962 war cannot be forgotten. That conflict also stemmed largely out of fantasies. There is a world of difference between a Line of Control and a Line of Actual Control. An earthy realism and pragmatism is needed to survive and thrive.

    Geopolitical circumstances are such today that it is not possible to sequester the tensions in Ladakh and regard them merely as a territorial dispute. Wuhan, Chennai — Prime Minister Modi can do only so much and no further. But the question must be asked: What about strategic communication during the interim between informal summits? Our China policy has been adrift.

    We failed to take China’s warnings seriously in the downstream of the decision over J&K last August, and we complicated matters further by proclaiming Aksai China to be an integral part of India, and crossed the red line by drawing a map to affirm our long-term intentions.

    And all this while we hope to establish “physical jurisdiction over POK (and Gilgit-Baltistan) one day” — as External Affairs Minister put it — through which of course the $60 billion China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, the flag carrier of the Belt & Road Initiative, runs across the Karakorum Pass, in the vicinity of which, by the way, we are also pressing ahead with road-building to facilitate swift military movement and deployments.

    Meanwhile, we dissimulated a strategic coupling with the US over a medieval virus to humiliate Beijing, and began contemplating ministerial visits to Taiwan. How could we have missed that this is a most critical juncture in regional and world politics, which is at a transformative stage? Indian diplomacy faltered amidst multiple failures of statecraft.

    The functionaries responsible must be held to account for their abject failure — due to incapacity, inertia, disinterest or whatever — to sustain strategic communication with Beijing, which is undoubtedly the most consequential relationship India would have for decades to come.

    Even in the most difficult years of the Cold War, there was no let-up in the Soviet-American communication. Whereas, Indian diplomacy relishes only joyful company — Brazil, America, Israel, Australia."


    https://indianpunchline.com/standoff-in-ladakh-needs-political-solution/

    https://indianpunchline.com/about-me/
    Last edited by OhOh; 11-06-2020 at 11:21 PM.
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

  3. #3
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Now it's a three way spat.

    Hopefully they will be so busy arguing with each other they won't start lobbing nukes around.

    India and China: How Nepal's new map is stirring old rivalries - BBC News

  4. #4
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    India soldiers killed in clash with Chinese forces



    A Chinese soldier stands guard on the Chinese side of the border in 2008Three Indian soldiers have been killed in a clash with Chinese forces in Ladakh in the disputed Kashmir region.
    The deaths are the first in the disputed border area in at least 45 years, and follow rising military tensions between the nuclear powers.
    The Indian army said senior military officials from both sides were "meeting to defuse the situation", adding that both sides suffered casualties.
    An Indian army spokesman said the dead were one officer and two soldiers.
    China did not confirm any casualties, but accused India of crossing the border in the Galwan Valley.
    Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian said India had crossed the border twice on Monday, "provoking and attacking Chinese personnel, resulting in serious physical confrontation between border forces on the two sides", AFP news agency reported.
    Both sides insist no bullet has been fired in four decades, and the Indian army said on Tuesday that "no shots were fired" in this latest skirmish.


    Local media outlets reported that the Indian soldiers were "beaten to death" but there was no confirmation from the military.
    China's Global Times newspaper reported that "solemn representations" had been made with India over the incident.
    The clash comes amid rising tensions between the two powers, which have brawled along the border in recent weeks but not exchanged any gunfire.
    India has accused China of sending thousands of troops into Ladakh's Galwan valley and says China occupies 38,000sq km (about 14,700sq miles) of its territory. Several rounds of talks in the last three decades have failed to resolve the boundary disputes.
    The deaths reported on Tuesday are believed to be the first in decades in a confrontation between the two powers. They have fought only one war so far, in 1962, when India suffered a humiliating defeat.
    In May, dozens of Indian and Chinese soldiers exchanged physical blows in a clash on the border in the north-eastern state of Sikkim. And in 2017, the two countries clashed in the region after China tried to extend a border road through a disputed plateau.


    Their armies - two of the world's largest - come face to face at many points. The two sides are separated by the poorly demarcated Line of Actual Control (LAC). Rivers, lakes and snowcaps mean the line can shift, provoking confrontation.
    Image copyrightPRESS INFORMATION BUREAUImage captionTensions have risen over a road built by India in LadakhThere are several reasons why tensions are rising now - but competing strategic goals lie at the root, and both sides blame each other.
    India has built a new road in what experts say is the most remote and vulnerable area along the LAC in Ladakh. And India's decision to ramp up infrastructure seems to have infuriated Beijing.
    The road could boost Delhi's capability to move men and material rapidly in case of a conflict.
    India also disputes part of Kashmir - an ethnically diverse Himalayan region covering about 140,000sq km - with Pakistan.


    Over the past week, Indian media have been reporting that troops from both sides had been gradually moving back from their stand-off positions, and that efforts were under way to de-escalate the tensions along the border. So it will come as a surprise to many to hear of a violent clash in which three Indian soldiers were killed.
    The last time the two sides exchanged any gunfire along the border was 1975, when four Indian soldiers were killed in a remote pass in north-eastern state of Arunachal Pradesh.
    The details of the latest skirmish, and the emergency measures being taken to defuse it, are still unclear.
    Whatever the result, the latest incident is likely to trigger a fresh wave of anti-China sentiments in India.
    It will also present daunting foreign policy and security challenges to Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his government, which is struggling to contain a surge of Covid-19 infections and revive an economy which looks headed for recession.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-53061476

  5. #5
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    As I reported in HooHoo's "Eurasia" thread, the latest score is India 3 - Chinastan 5.

  6. #6
    The Dentist English Noodles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    As I reported in HooHoo's "Eurasia" thread, the latest score is India 3 - Chinastan 5.
    Indian army are now reporting 20 Indian soldiers dead.

  7. #7
    Thailand Expat Latindancer's Avatar
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    Mainland Chinee seem to get infuriated at the drop of a hat...

  8. #8
    Thailand Expat jabir's Avatar
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    There are always lots of unknowns in disputed territory situations, but if I had to decide without knowing anything at all about the details of the dispute, it would be in light of traditional Chinese brash intrusion and expansion, and hand it over to India.

    Not because of the virus, but because that's what the Chinese do, nibble here nibble there, best way nick a country or island or chunk of territory and worst way just a few bits.

  9. #9
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    ...Indian forces stand no chance against those of China...unless headwagging has been weaponized...

  10. #10
    Chinese spy
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    Damn Covid.

  11. #11
    Thailand Expat Latindancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabir View Post
    that's what the Chinese do, nibble here nibble there, best way nick a country or island or chunk of territory and worst way just a few bits.
    Exactly. They excel at the thin end of the wedge.

  12. #12
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    ...Indian forces stand no chance against those of China...unless headwagging has been weaponized...
    They're probably using Lee Enfield .303's against Chinky Uzi knockoffs.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    They're probably using Lee Enfield .303's against Chinky Uzi knockoffs.
    In this incident reports say no weapons were fired. It seems the victims were beaten to death.

  14. #14
    En route
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    Yeah, 20 dead in hand to hand combat, jesus christ what a stoush that must have been. Chinas not saying but surely some chinkies copped it as well.

  15. #15
    Thailand Expat Latindancer's Avatar
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    The Chinese may have had sticks, tonfas or nunchakus.

  16. #16
    ความรู้ลึกลับ HuangLao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Damn Covid.
    Yeah.
    That must be it.....


  17. #17
    Thailand Expat AntRobertson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Latindancer
    tonfas or nunchakus
    Because they've recently visited Japan?

    Can't keep your racial stereotypes straight?

  18. #18
    Chinese spy
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    20 dead in hand to hand combat
    Wolf Warriors!

  19. #19
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    One can only hope they have both committed to losing, say, 20% of their armed forces in hand to hand combat before escalating to other weapons.

    That should keep them busy for a few years.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chittychangchang View Post
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-53061476
    Quote Originally Posted by English Noodles View Post
    20 Indian soldiers dead
    Quote Originally Posted by Latindancer View Post
    They excel at the thin end of the wedge.
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    They're probably using Lee Enfield .303's
    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo View Post
    Yeah, 20 dead in hand to hand combat
    A BBC report, some opinions from our resident experts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo View Post
    Chinas not saying but surely some chinkies copped it as well.
    It depends if you actually look for competant sources.

    Compare and contrast BBC with two Chinese reports.

    India urged to halt border violation

    By Zhou Jin | China Daily | Updated: 2020-06-17 07:05

    "China urged India on Tuesday to stop all infringements and provocative actions and work with China to return to the correct track of dialogue and talks to resolve disputes.

    Senior Colonel Zhang Shuili, spokesman for the Western Theater Command of the People's Liberation Army, said that there was a serious violation of commitment when Indian troops on Monday night crossed the line of control at the Galwan Valley region at the border area of China and India and engaged in provocative attacks, which resulted in "fierce physical confrontations and casualties".

    Indian border troops seriously violated accords between the two countries and the consensus reached at talks between high-ranking officers at the group army commander level of both sides, Zhang said in a statement on Tuesday evening.

    He stressed that the region has always been Chinese territory and that India's actions seriously harm bilateral military relations.

    "We demand that the Indian side strictly restrain its front-line troops, immediately stop all infringements and provocative actions, and work together with China to return to the correct track of dialogue and talks to resolve differences," he said.

    China and India have been locked in a standoff in the border areas for weeks, and the two countries have tried to maintain communication via diplomatic and military channels to ease the tension.

    Chinese and Indian military officials held commander-level talks earlier this month at the border personnel meeting point at Moldo to discuss ways to resolve matters related to the recent border situation and safeguard peace and stability in the border area."

    India urged to halt border violation - World - Chinadaily.com.cn

    India needs to rid two misjudgments on border situation: Global Times editorial


    Source:Global Times Published: 2020/6/17 0:03:40

    Chinese and Indian troops were engaged in a serious physical clash in Galwan Valley on Monday. The Indian side said three Indian soldiers were killed. The Chinese military confirmed that clashes between the two sides have led to casualties, but did not release the exact figures.

    This has been the most serious clash between Chinese and Indian soldiers so far. Indian media reported this is the first time since 1975 that soldiers died in border conflicts between the two countries.

    India has been building extensive infrastructure facilities along the border, and forcibly built part of the facilities in the Chinese side of the Line of Actual Control regardless of bilateral divergences over the border disputes. The two sides went into repeated physical clashes as Chinese soldiers tried to stop their Indian counterparts.

    The arrogance and recklessness of the Indian side is the main reason for the consistent tensions along China-India borders. In recent years, New Delhi has adopted a tough stance on border issues, which is mainly resulted from two misjudgments. It believes that China does not want to sour ties with India because of increasing strategic pressure from the US, therefore China lacks the will to hit back provocations from the Indian side. In addition, some Indian people mistakenly believe their country's military is more powerful than China's. These misperceptions affect the rationality of Indian opinion and add pressure to India's China policy.

    The US has wooed India with its Indo-Pacific Strategy, which adds to the abovementioned misjudgment of some Indian elite. In 2017 when Indian troops crossed the line and entered the Doklam area to openly challenge China's territorial sovereignty, their craze was caused by such arrogance. Such an aggressive posture has won praise from the Indian public, which means that the Indian elite's mentality toward China is unhealthy and dangerous.

    China does not want to clash with India and hopes to peacefully deal with bilateral border disputes. This is China's goodwill, not weakness. How could China sacrifice its sovereignty in exchange for peace and bow to threats from New Delhi?

    China and India are big countries. Peace and stability along border areas matter to both countries as well as to the region. New Delhi must be clear that the resources that the US would invest in China-India relations are limited. What the US would do is just extend a lever to India, which Washington can exploit to worsen India's ties with China, and make India dedicate itself to serving Washington's interests.

    The gap between China's and India's strength is clear. China does not want to turn border issues with India into a confrontation. This is goodwill and restraint from China. But China is confident in the situation at the border. It does not and will not create conflicts, but it fears no conflicts either. This policy is supported by both morality and strength. We will not trade our bottom line with anyone.

    The clash in the Galwan Valley this time has led to casualties on both sides, indicating China-India border tensions, amid constant frictions, may spiral out of control. We notice that the leadership of the two militaries has exercised restraint after the incident, indicating that both sides would like to handle the conflict peacefully and not let the conflict escalate. It is noteworthy that the Chinese side did not disclose the number of casualties of the Chinese military, a move that aims to avoid comparing and preventing confrontational sentiments from escalating.

    We would like to see tensions in the Galwan Valley subside. It is hoped that the Indian side can strengthen management of frontline troops and engineers, and adhere to the consensus reached between the leadership of the two militaries. It will benefit both sides if the situation cools down, and it needs the efforts of both Chinese and Indian frontline troops.

    On the China-India border issue, the Chinese public should trust the government and the People's Liberation Army. They will firmly safeguard China's territorial integrity and maintain national interests when dealing with border conflicts. China has the ability and wisdom to safeguard every inch of its land and will not let any strategic trick meet its end.

    India needs to rid two misjudgments on border situation: Global Times editorial - Global Times

    Jaw, Jaw or war war. it seems our TD experts above desire more dead soldiers.

    China suggests talking will bring a solution acceptable to both sides. If of course both sides are in control and not assisting another's plans.

  21. #21
    Thailand Expat Latindancer's Avatar
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    ABC News in Oz just aid that they used fists, rocks and metal bars. And that despite the Chinese denials, Chinese forces were originally grouping above the Indian forces.

  22. #22
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    "We are China and no one could be prouder and if you dont believe us we'll yell a little louder"

    "We are China and no one........



  23. #23
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    ^...*cough*...I don't suppose you have an Indian version of that clip...

  24. #24
    Thailand Expat raycarey's Avatar
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    neither side wants this to escalate, so i'd bet that cooler heads are going to quickly prevail because they know there isn't any of the traditional leadership coming out of the UN, DC or london.

    i realize this is a decidedly western centric perspective, but i think it still holds true at this point in history.

  25. #25
    ความรู้ลึกลับ HuangLao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    ^...*cough*...I don't suppose you have an Indian version of that clip...


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