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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    they all use the "national security" excuse to do just about anything they want.
    For that reason even keeping in safe some documents not good for eyes of stupid population (e.g. JFK...)

  2. #27
    Thailand Expat jabir's Avatar
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    Loved it when naive world leaders and armchair dead were celebrating with the chant, 'one country, two systems'.

    OMG, how could edumacated people get it soo wrong!

    Never mind, I'm sure the CPC has honourable intent with an impressive catalogue of promises for Taiwan.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton View Post
    China's long term strategy is to bring all of East Asia under it's ecomic control but I think they are making a big mistake pushing the HK andTaiwan issues atm
    In both China is defending it's acknowledged sovereignty.

    In both instances foreigners are warming the pot. One presumes if China became interested and supported any Hawaii or Texan local's desire to leave the Union if legally possible, you would think that quite acceptable.

  4. #29
    Days Work Done! Norton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    In both China is defending it's acknowledged sovereignty
    China did not have sovereignty over either. In the case of Taiwan the Japanese did. Hong Kong, the Brits.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    imo, never going to happen
    We will see soon enough but imo, China runs the risk of unfracturing the current rift in cooperation in the near term. Better to let the rift worsen for a few years.

    Partcularily leaving Taiwan status as is.
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

  5. #30
    Thailand Expat misskit's Avatar
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    Hong Kongers fret over Beijing’s planned new security laws

    HONG KONG (Reuters) – Newspaper vendor Man, 60, was speechless when she saw the headline that Beijing plans to impose national security laws on Hong Kong, and worried what the future holds for youth in the Chinese-ruled city.


    Communist Party rulers in Beijing on Friday unveiled details of the legislation that critics see as a turning point for the former British colony, which enjoys many freedoms, including an independent legal system and right to protest, not allowed on the mainland.


    “I was very upset when I held the newspaper with the headline that the national security law has arrived in Hong Kong,” said Man, who declined to give her full name due to the sensitivity of the issue.


    “I feel upset for the young generation … What can they do now, where can they go?” said Man, who has been selling newspapers in the bustling working class district of Mong Kok for nearly five decades.


    Lok, 42, a clerk at an investment company and mother of two children aged 16 and nine, shared her sense of despair about the outlook for Hong Kong’s younger generation.


    “There’s no prospect for them anymore,” said Lok, adding she hopes her children can leave the city.


    “I think Hong Kong is half-way dead. I didn’t expect Hong Kong would deteriorate that quickly.”


    Lui, 22, who works in marketing, told Reuters he felt scared when he heard the news but said Hong Kong people need to be persistent and continue to fight against what many see as Beijing’s tightening grip over the city.


    “Whether or not Hong Kong is still Hong Kong, it depends on us, Hong Kong people,” Lui said.


    “We should not give up easily simply because of the legislation of the national security law. Being persistent is the Hong Kong spirit.”


    Others hope the proposed laws can help bring calm to a city wracked by months of often violent anti-government protests that show signs of ramping up again as anger builds over Beijing’s move to assert its authority over the city.


    Hong Kong leader Carrie Lam says her government will “fully cooperate” with the Chinese parliament to safeguard national security, which she said would not affect rights, freedoms or judicial independence.


    “We are not wealthy people and not financially sound. To earn a living is of the utmost importance so as to feed my family,” said Ben Ip, 45, a mechanic and owner of a vehicle paint shop in the city’s Tai Hang district.


    “As an ordinary Hong Kong citizen, we want to have a stable life in a safe environment. The law may speed up some people to leave … it can be a good thing in the longer run, leading to a calmer Hong Kong.”

    Hong Kongers fret over Beijing’s planned new security laws – Thai PBS World

  6. #31
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealKW View Post
    Why is that a surprise?
    Why is *what* a surprise?

  7. #32
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    So it seems if it can't ram its authoritarian laws through the HK Parliament (expected after gettings its arse kicked in the last elections), Chinastan is just going to pass them in the chinky "parliament" and then pretend that Hong Kong passed them anyway.

    Now start counting the "disappeared".

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton View Post
    China did not
    It does now, not some feint decade or so in it's millenniums history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Norton View Post
    Japanese did. Hong Kong, the Brits.
    You may wish to review the surrender document Japan signed at the end of WWII.

    You may wish to review the surrender agreement Thatchers UK government signed at the end of the last century.

    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    So it seems if it can't ram its authoritarian laws through the HK Parliament
    The new law is a Chinese law, applicable to all of China. Which HK became a few decades ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    to pass them in the chinky "parliament"
    Not sure what your "offensive word for a restaurant serving Chinese food", has to do with anything other than disclosing your racism, once again

    Similar to most sovereign countries, who pass laws through their own "parliaments". As required those that have constitutions and some that don't.
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

  9. #34
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    The new law is a Chinese law, applicable to all of China. Which HK became a few decades ago.
    Oh look HooHoo has conveniently forgotten about "One Country, Two Systems". How very chinky.

    Entirely sure that I don't give a shit what you think, you snivelling chinky sycophant.

    Article 5 of the Basic Law states that China’s “socialist system and policies” shall not be practised in Hong Kong and “the previous capitalist system and way of life shall remain unchanged for 50 years”.

  10. #35
    Hansum Man! panama hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Oh look HooHoo has conveniently forgotten about "One Country, Two Systems".
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Article 5 of the Basic Law states that China’s “socialist system and policies” shall not be practised in Hong Kong and “the previous capitalist system and way of life shall remain unchanged for 50 years”.
    Yes, but but but . . . OhOh doesn't like that bit . . . and where is Tovarish Klondyke to back him up?

  11. #36
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    The democracy protesters turned out to be little better than the mobs in the Taiping or Boxer rebellions- to the point where many civic minded hongkies (expats included) have washed their hands of them. Unfortunately, they have brought this upon themselves. If their version of democracy is mob rule, violence and persecution of other people, the HK people don't want it. They prefer order.

    For the bleeding hearts that wanna sob "but democracy", I would remind you HK has never been a democracy. A democratic fig leaf was installed in the last decade or so of colonial rule (I lived in HK then), basically as a thorn in the side for the PRC. China played ball until the protests turned destructive and violent, but now they are bringing it closer into the PRC fold. Quite predictably. Still 2 systems, but less so.
    Last edited by sabang; 24-05-2020 at 06:34 AM.

  12. #37
    Thailand Expat TheRealKW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Why is *what* a surprise?
    You said it's no surprise, this implies it might have been a surprise to some. I do not think that any consider a government using convienient timing such as a pandemic to shove home an unpoopular law.

  13. #38
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    The pandemic may have provided a convenient pretext, but it is not the reason. HK's destructive, bigoted and violent democracy protesters have only hurt the cause of democracy.

  14. #39
    Hansum Man! panama hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    HK's destructive, bigoted and violent democracy protesters have only hurt the cause of democracy.
    As opposed to allowing Beijing to do what it wants. I guess being spineless lemmings would have been preferable.

    You've lived and worked there. I've lived and worked there as well as China - HKers don't want to live under the communist dictatorship, why wold you begrudge them that?

  15. #40
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    HKers don't want to live under the communist dictatorship
    But they do, under a one country two systems principle. And they lived in a Colony before that. The "pro-democracy demonstrators" ( more accurately the many thugs and opportunists among them) only damaged that status, and the HK security forces were shown to be manifestly incapable of restoring and maintaining order. All of the expats I still know that are living there had jack shit of them when the protests descended to wholesale vandalism, violence and persecution. But, if this assuages ones tender democratic principles, it will still be one country two systems- the PRC is just drawing the security apron closer to itself. They will still have a lot more personal liberty than the mainlanders.

    Still as an ex Colonial myself, and permanent resident of HK before and after the Hangover I cannot suppress a wry smile that the hongkies resent and dislike the mainlanders even more than they did the gweilo, and chafe at the current legislative assembly even more than the previous Governor and his Colonial minions.

  16. #41
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    At my numerous dealing with HK traders years ago I had always experienced their supremacy behaviour, we are here to supply the world, making use of the stupid mainland people with their poor English (as somebody on TD, please no names here)...

    Now, in the last 10 years their (HK) supremacy position has got many dents... (The stupid mainland people with their improved English can manage the trading without them)

  17. #42
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    HK was exploited mercilessly by the commie thugs who essentially had no intention of respecting the HKSAR status in any way other than by paying lip service to it.

    This is merely the death throes of the legacy 'free' HK as its younger generation realise that they are to be imprisoned by the straitjacket of Chink authoritarianism which forbids free speech, cultural liberty and the right to tell the truth about the commie thugs in Beijing.

    The older generations being more interested in material wealth actually think that by keeping quiet and behaving like mice everything will stay the same. The delusion is almost palpable and quite pitiful really.

    As the song goes, you don't know what you got 'till it's gone, and those days of Legco/Exco pre-1997 must now seem halcyon indeed.

    It's a shame but it was always inevitable.

    Commie China is a fucking virus and there it is.

    Labelling the protestors and those fighting for their freedom as ' vandals and hooligans ' is no more than commie propaganda and one expects that as the movement succeeded in gaining traction but to hear it from former expat westerners is very disappointing but then, stupidity is the doctrine of the majority these days and there is no finer exponent than the geriatric bathchair warriors talking out of their arses in their antipodean twilight years.
    Last edited by Seekingasylum; 24-05-2020 at 10:38 AM.

  18. #43
    Hansum Man! panama hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    But they do, under a one country two systems principle.
    Exactly. You may remember why the riots and protests started - not for independence, rather the continuation of the 2/1 and legislative separation

  19. #44
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    I don't think he understands the concept of 'reason' as a rationale, only as motivation......

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    China’s “socialist system and policies” shall not be practised in Hong Kong and “the previous capitalist system and way of life shall remain unchanged for 50 years
    The Chinese can make any national law they wish to. As most sovereign countries can do.

    The Chinese are not changing, the "system" of the HK government, it is not it is not changing the "HK capitalist system" or HK's citizens "way of life".

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    So it seems if it can't ram its authoritarian laws through the HK Parliament (expected after gettings its arse kicked in the last elections), Chinastan is just going to pass them in the chinky "parliament" and then pretend that Hong Kong passed them anyway.

    Now start counting the "disappeared".
    Exactly.
    And journalists will be next as they impose censorship.

    Meanwhile

    Hong Kong protests: violence feared as riot police gather ahead of unauthorised rally
    Armoured vehicles and water cannon have been deployed to tackle protests amid China plans to force through security laws

    Hong Kong authorities have braced for a mass protest on Sunday, as anger grows over Beijing’s extraordinary declaration it would impose national security laws on the semi-autonomous region.


    The rally and march planned for the central business and shopping districts is unauthorised, and a brutal police response is widely feared. Riot police, armoured vehicles and water cannon were deployed across the city including at Beijing’s Liaison Office on Sunday morning, and police had warned people not to march, promising to take “resolute law enforcement action as appropriate”. Social media listed numerous police roadblocks, and showed cars being searched.


    The rally, which was planned last week in relation to another controversial law which would criminalise ridicule of the national anthem, took on a new urgency after the Chinese Communist Party government revealed its plans at last week’s annual meeting.


    The draft legislation being considered by Beijing’s National People’s Congress (NPC) outlaws acts of subversion, separatism, “acts of foreign interference” and terrorism against the central government, charges that have been used against political dissidents and opponents in mainland China.


    It would also allow Beijing to install its own security agencies in Hong Kong.


    Protest action began on Sunday morning with small groups of activists and pro-democracy politicians marching to China’s liaison office. They arranged themselves in groups of eight in order not to breach the government’s social distancing rules.




    “A characteristic of a dictatorial country is that they use national security as a pretext to suppress freedom of speech,” Roy Tam, a district councillor shouted through a loud hailer.


    Eight activists from another group, League of Social Democrats, arrived to demonstrate in front of the office minutes later.


    “Hong Kong people defending our human rights,” they chanted. “Don’t forget the June 4 massacre! Human rights are higher than the regime! Down with Communist Party dictatorship!”


    Despite global condemnation, Hong Kong’s leader, Carrie Lam has given support for the NPC bypassing the Hong Kong government to impose the law itself.


    Under the Basic Law – the mini-constitution enacted when Hong Kong was handed to China by Britain in 1997 – Hong Kong is obligated to pass national security laws itself.
    However successive attempts to pass them have failed in the face of community opposition.


    Former legislator and co-drafter of the Basic Law, Martin Lee, has previously told the Guardian that the opposition is in part because governments had failed to deliver on the Basic Law’s promise of universal suffrage.


    The announcement that Beijing would impose national security laws stunned Hong Kong’s residents, millions of whom have marched through the city to protest against a now-shelved bill which would allow extradition to the mainland, and to defend their democracy.


    The 1997 handover agreement promised 50 years of uninterrupted semi-autonomy for Hong Kong under the “one country two systems” principle.


    With its announcement Beijing has been accused of trying to bring 2047 forward to 2020.


    Mass protests in 2019, which have begun to rekindle now the city is emerging from pandemic restrictions, have been widely cited by authorities as the catalyst for the increased crackdown.


    Since June more than 8,000 people, including children, have been arrested over involvement in protests. There is fear that at a minimum, the new laws could be used to increase the charges against them.


    Earlier this month the police watchdog effectively cleared officers of accusations of brutality, collusion, and excessive force, in a report that was labelled a whitewash by human rights groups.


    Why reassertion of Xi Jinping's authority spells violence in Hong Kong
    Read more
    Authorities openly took advantage of the city’s 7.4million residents staying home to stop the spread of the virus, by rounding up senior activists and pro-democracy figures and cracking down on small breakout protests.


    In recent weeks Beijing’s senior offices in Hong Kong have made interventionists statements about Hong Kong parliamentarians, and declared that constitutional bars on mainland interference do not apply to them.


    The national security laws have been condemned around the world, with the US threatening consequences for mainland China.
    Hong Kong protests: violence feared as riot police gather ahead of unauthorised rally | World news | The Guardian

    Why reassertion of Xi Jinping's authority spells violence in Hong Kong
    Sedition legislation would allow Chinese security forces on to streets and may mean end of city’s autonomy
    Around this time last year, criticism was mounting in Hong Kong over a proposed bill that would allow people wanted by the Chinese authorities to be sent to the mainland. Demonstrators marched on the city’s legislature and scuffles broke out between pro-democracy and pro-Beijing lawmakers.


    Within a few weeks, more than a million people took to the streets, decrying legislation they believed would mark the end of Hong Kong and the freedoms that set it apart from China. A protest movement was born and for months the city was engulfed in violent street battles, in what has been described as Hong Kong’s worst crisis since the 1997 handover of the former British colony to Chinese control.




    Now, new legislation is in the works that promises to make that crisis much worse. China’s national legislature is preparing to impose a sweeping anti-sedition law on Hong Kong in an unprecedented legal manoeuvre that would bypass the city’s legislative system, where similar moves were shelved for 17 years because of widespread public opposition. Beijing has said such measures are “absolutely necessary” for stopping the protests and restoring order.


    “It is way worse than the extradition bill. It proves that ‘one country, two systems’ has been completely repealed,” said Biyanca Chu, 23, a protester, who was among many shocked by the announcement.


    Rights advocates and legal experts say the law, aimed at stopping subversion, separatism, terrorism and “activities of foreign and external forces to interfere in the affairs of Hong Kong” would be used on protesters like Chu, a recent graduate. Over the last year, charges of rioting, illegal assembly, public obstruction among others have failed to dent the demonstrations.




    By including foreign interference under national security, the law could also curb international lobbying by pro-democracy activists. China has long blamed countries including the UK and the US as the “black hand” behind the protests


    “Usually the penalty will be much heavier when it is national security,” said Ma Ngok, an associate professor at the Chinese University of Hong Kong, who said in addition to targeting protesters, the law could affect anyone seen as critical of the government.


    “International NGOs operating in Hong Kong will not be safe. I don’t know what will happen to the media. This is all part of a major decline of Hong Kong freedom and autonomy,” he said.


    Legal experts say the law, details of which would be drafted by the standing committee of China’s National People’s Congress and then directly added to Hong Kong law, is a blatant violation of the autonomy promised under ‘one country, two systems’ and the city’s de-facto constitution, the basic law.


    According to a draft document, Beijing would reserve the right to set up national security agencies in Hong Kong to “safeguard national security”. This increases the possibility of Chinese security forces on the streets of Hong Kong.


    “It is the beginning of direct rule by Beijing, sidelining the authority of the Hong Kong government and the legislative council as designated by the basic law,” said Prof Ho-Fung Hung, a lecturer in political economy at Johns Hopkins University in the US.


    Experts say the aggressive move comes at a time when China is in a stronger position relative to much of the rest of the world struggling to contain the coronavirus pandemic. It is also a way for China to send a message to the US, which is debating whether to continue granting Hong Kong special trade status under the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act, passed last year to pressure Beijing into respecting the city’s rights.


    Having largely contained the virus, China has begun to restart its economy after months of paralysis, while sending aid and equipment to other countries. According to Prof Steve Tsang, director of the SOAS China Institute in London, China has came out of Covid-19 stronger than any other major economy.


    “In a situation where the countries that historically would speak up for Hong Kong are on their knees and are dependent on China for PPE, what better timing is there than that?” said Tsang, referring to China’s shipments of personal protective equipment around the world.


    Yet the move also comes from a position of vulnerability for the Chinese president, Xi Jinping, who disappeared from public view during the early weeks of the coronavirus outbreak in China and has been under scrutiny over what he knew about the virus and when. Some have described the proposed anti-sedition law as a “mark of desperation” after almost a year of not being able to halt the protests.


    “Xi Jinping clearly understands that he was weakened by Covid-19, which is more reason why he needs to reassert his authority,” said Tsang. “If he can demonstrate resolve and ability to move in Hong Kong it shows he has not really lost that much control … and therefore [his] enemies within the party better watch out.”


    Observers believe the immediate effect of the law is likely to be more unrest. On Friday, Hong Kong’s chief executive, Carrie Lam, said her government would fully cooperate with China to enact the legislation while protesters called for demonstrations at the weekend.


    “Given that the protests and their intensity have been driven by Beijing’s erosion of promised freedoms, Beijing’s direct imposition of a security law would clearly enflame the population,” said Victoria Tin-bor Hui, an associate professor of political science at the University of Notre Dame who has been following the protests.


    “We are going to see people going back in the streets in Hong Kong, both big demonstrations and smaller demonstrations – which will be met by police with full force – and violence re-erupting in Hong Kong,” said Tsang. “It’s going to be a very hot summer.”
    Why reassertion of Xi Jinping's authority spells violence in Hong Kong | World news | The Guardian

  22. #47
    ความรู้ลึกลับ HuangLao's Avatar
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    Yet we never examine our own examples of ongoing nasty empire expansion [historical content].
    Jumping on the most fashionable bandwagon is more than a bit contradictory.

    Always them.
    Never us.


    Translation: Before critique can be placed on one's neighbor's backyard, need to examine one's own nasty appearing backyard.
    The difference might astound.

    Stones, glass houses, 'n all that shit.
    Last edited by HuangLao; 24-05-2020 at 08:05 PM. Reason: Never finished with the educating of the usual numpties

  23. #48
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuangLao View Post
    Yet we never examine our own examples of ongoing nasty empire expansion [historical content].
    Jumping on the most fashionable bandwagon is more than a bit contradictory.

    Always them.
    Never us.
    Fuck off Jeff.

  24. #49
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    The Chinese can make any national law they wish to. As most sovereign countries can do.

    The Chinese are not changing, the "system" of the HK government, it is not it is not changing the "HK capitalist system" or HK's citizens "way of life".
    I suspect being beaten up, chucked in a van and shipped off to some "re-education camp" for criticising the odious Mr. Shithole is probably a change to their "way of life".

  25. #50
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    As I recall, the protesters substantively got most of what they asked for- and then the protests inexplicably got worse, as in not larger but more violent and destructive. The agitators and serial malcontents took over, basically- and the idea of a settlement only infuriated them more. They were gunning for outright conflict, and their bigoted policies had more in common with the National front than any liberal democracy. Those are not democracy protesters, and history tells us that you really don't want angry Chinese mobs running amok in your streets. Small wonder then that Vigilante gangs started to form, mainly Triads. China even quietly imported elite troops to HK barracks, under the guise of rotating recruits (they never left barracks fortunately). It was a tad concerning, until a rump of the hardcore protesters holed themselves up in (and trashed) HK Poly U, and were sat out. You think the average hongkie supported these people? You are dreaming. Their attempt at fomenting a popular uprising fell flat.

    Nope, I am not surprised at all that China has effectively broadened it's security options in HK. Neither are my expat friends, from the comfort of their overstuffed chaise lounge' in Mid Levels. The streets of HK were not safe, this is unheard of. People were being assaulted going to and from their place of work. MTR stations were being trashed, and vandalised. Nice way to sell democracy to the Chinese.
    Last edited by sabang; 24-05-2020 at 03:21 PM.

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