1. #7576
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    The autopsy records can be reviewed later.



    No you're just ignoring scientific precedent.
    There is no contemporary precedent for this stuation and the policy on which it is based.

    If a coroner incorrectly attributes any death to Covid, when another cause was responsible, he or she will bebliable to prosecution. The proof of such misconduct is usually cremated.
    The relatives of the deceased have every right to question the cause of death, and the coroner has a statutory duty to record the correct cause.
    I believe the death rates ascribed to Covid are grossly exaggerated, just because any sign of Covid gives coroners the excuse to attribute the cause of death incorrectly.Its all very well saying that autopsy records can be examined later. What if those records are incorrect about the cause of death. Citizens rights are being abused by government regulations, which are clearly being over estimated, leading to corrupt practices for Covid reporting and recording.
    Stay home and wear masks, because the numbers being used to enforce isolation are scary, but they are also possibly false?

    After the event is too late.

  2. #7577
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickel View Post
    I read an article a while back, sorry no link, that said some coroner's didn't have covid testing kits for autopsies and could only write cause of death as pneumonia.
    That sounds quite plausible when the early stages of Covid deaths could also be attributed to last winters influenza strains, as well as Covid, once knowledge of it was released late, by the Chinese.

  3. #7578
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    I believe the death rates ascribed to Covid are grossly exaggerated, just because any sign of Covid gives coroners the excuse to attribute the cause of death incorrectly.
    That's the type of thinking that got the world into this mess in the first place.

  4. #7579
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    That's the type of thinking that got the world into this mess in the first place.
    Would that be my thinking, or the governments who wanted everyone so scared of it, they would do everything the government asked them to ..... for a while anyway

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    There was a CDC report noting that only 6% of people dying with Covid were recorded as having died from Covid.
    Most people die from respiratory failure or heart failure or sepsis, amongst other things. In many cases these were pre-existing conditions and in many they were not.
    That is why I remain interested in the total numbers of deaths compared to expected numbers. In a way that gives a better sense of how effectively overall a health system is coping. What people died from might sometimes be unclear but the deaths will be counted fairly accurately, very nearly precisely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    Would that be my thinking, or the governments who wanted everyone so scared of it, they would do everything the government asked them to ..... for a while anyway
    All I can say is that I'm quite glad I live in NZ - strict measures were taken right at the beginning. Very few infections and very, very few deaths.

    I really fail to see why a government, which has the best for their population at heart, shouldn't be followed. It works.

    The US? India? Russia? Sweden? The UK? Italy? No, thank you.

    Our life has been as normal, bar the overseas travelling, as it was before C-19

  7. #7582
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    There is no contemporary precedent for this stuation and the policy on which it is based.
    Yes there is, there was an H1N1 pandemic in 2009.

  8. #7583
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shutree View Post
    There was a CDC report noting that only 6% of people dying with Covid were recorded as having died from Covid.
    Most people die from respiratory failure or heart failure or sepsis, amongst other things. In many cases these were pre-existing conditions and in many they were not.
    That is why I remain interested in the total numbers of deaths compared to expected numbers. In a way that gives a better sense of how effectively overall a health system is coping. What people died from might sometimes be unclear but the deaths will be counted fairly accurately, very nearly precisely.
    There are going to be other deaths caused by the pandemic but not by Covid:


  9. #7584
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    A succession of worrying news:

    The novel coronavirus continues to infect Americans across the country and is spreading at an increased rate in 31 out of 50 states, according to new data.
    The data, which was released by Rt.live, shows values for Rt, a key metric indicating how fast the virus is spreading, according to the site. "It's the average number of people who become infected by an infectious person. If Rt is above 1.0, the virus will spread quickly. When Rt is below 1.0, the virus will stop spreading," the site says.
    According to the data, Wyoming has the highest Rt rate, which is estimated to be 1.29, but the data also shows the state having an Rt rate ranging between .93 and 1.51. Behind Wyoming is Massachusetts, with a 1.21 estimated Rt rate, and Wisconsin, with an estimated Rt rate of 1.16.

    Coronavirus Is Spreading Quickly in 31 of 50 U.S. States, Data Shows
    The US excess mortality rate from COVID-19 is substantially worse than Europe’s


    Janine Aron, John Muellbauer 29 September 2020
    The US has 4% of the world’s population but 21% of the global COVID-19-attributed infections and deaths. This column shows that when comparing excess mortality rates, a more robust way of reporting on pandemic deaths, Europe’s cumulative excess mortality rate from March to July is 28% lower than the US rate, contradicting the Trump administration’s claim that Europe’s rate is 33% higher. The US Northeast – the region most comparable with individual European countries – has experienced substantially worse excess mortality than Europe’s worst-affected countries. Had the US kept its excess mortality rate down to the level in Europe, around 57,800 American lives would have been saved.

    The US excess mortality rate from COVID-19 is substantially worse than Europe’s | VOX, CEPR Policy Portal

    Heading into the fall and winter, there are clear signs of a third resurgence bearing a close resemblance to what we saw in early June. Since the most recent nadir on Sept. 9, when the national rate was at 34,300 cases a day—still a notch above the April peak—cases have risen to 45,300 a day, a 32% increase. The numbers paint an alarmingly familiar picture that spells trouble ahead—despite President Donald Trump’s repeated but false assertions that the country is “rounding the final turn” on the pandemic.

    Alarming COVID-19 Data Shows Third Wave Brewing for U.S. | Time
    New York's daily rate of positive coronavirus tests climbed to 3.25 percent over the last 24 hours, with a sharp increase in cases among Orthodox Jewish communities, authorities said Tuesday.
    The elevated rate, which was at 1.93 percent just the day before, marks a worrisome step for a city that has made drastic progress in fighting the coronavirus.
    New York City, where more than 23,800 people have died of coronavirus, became the global epicenter of the pandemic in spring but has recently touted some of the lowest test positivity rates and infection rates among major US cities.
    "For the first time in quite a while, the daily number is over three percent and that is cause for real concern," Mayor Bill de Blasio told reporters, announcing that the city would begin fining those not wearing masks in public.

    https://www.sciencealert.com/jump-in...rm-in-new-york

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    I maintain that different countries and different regions, using widely varying methods of reporting, testing and recording, cannot possibly be compared, using statistical analysis. This is especially true when the methodology of statistical data also varies.
    There is no global standard or capability for any of these issues, so all that can reasonably be predicted is that, this pandemic, and the responses to it, amount to a global clusterfuck.

    The WHO reports over 1m global deaths attributed to C19. How accurate do you think this figure is. Can you trust numbers coming out of the US, Europe and dictatorships with the same veracity?

    The bottom line is, that the bottom line is so significantly blurred to make me question its reliability.

  11. #7586
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    Winter and Christmas is coming to Europe and America.

    2 mill dead by the end of Jan?

  12. #7587
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    I maintain that different countries and different regions, using widely varying methods of reporting, testing and recording, cannot possibly be compared, using statistical analysis. This is especially true when the methodology of statistical data also varies.
    There is no global standard or capability for any of these issues, so all that can reasonably be predicted is that, this pandemic, and the responses to it, amount to a global clusterfuck.

    The WHO reports over 1m global deaths attributed to C19. How accurate do you think this figure is. Can you trust numbers coming out of the US, Europe and dictatorships with the same veracity?

    The bottom line is, that the bottom line is so significantly blurred to make me question its reliability.
    It's never going to be 100% accurate, but it doesn't need to be in or to be of value. It just takes time to collect the information, make adjustments for known errors and correlate it all.


    That's why it will take years.

  13. #7588
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    It's never going to be 100% accurate, but it doesn't need to be in or to be of value. It just takes time to collect the information, make adjustments for known errors and correlate it all.


    That's why it will take years.
    There are already massive differences in testing capabilities between countries and regions. Some are testing more aggressively, and others can’t afford to test anyone except the highly likely candidates. Athletes gat tested routinely, but care home staff and residents were only recently added to test groups in the UK.
    How does this compare with India, Africa, Indonesia and Philippines?

    No doubt some are using different test kits and methods?

    As I said, it’s already a global clusterfuck, but some people expect the answers will be found in the post pandemic inquiry?

  14. #7589
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    There are already massive differences in testing capabilities between countries and regions. Some are testing more aggressively, and others can’t afford to test anyone except the highly likely candidates. Athletes gat tested routinely, but care home staff and residents were only recently added to test groups in the UK.
    How does this compare with India, Africa, Indonesia and Philippines?

    No doubt some are using different test kits and methods?

    As I said, it’s already a global clusterfuck, but some people expect the answers will be found in the post pandemic inquiry?
    Of course answers will be found. There is a ton of uncorrelated data out there right now that when aggregated will give a much more accurate picture of how the virus spread.

    This is critical for future pandemic planning (assuming the US gets rid of the fucking orange turd in charge and reestablishes its pandemic planning and warning system).

  15. #7590
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    The eventual answers will be just like any other enquiry or investigation, which depends on political expediency.

  16. #7591
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabir View Post
    The eventual answers will be just like any other enquiry or investigation, which depends on political expediency.
    Politicians won't be performing them. And most people won't understand the data anyway.

  17. #7592
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    We’re Out of Beds: Russia’s Resurgent Coronavirus Outbreak Is Approaching First Peak

    When Anastasia Protopopova finished her Sept. 19 shift in the intensive care ward of one of Moscow’s key coronavirus clinics, Hospital no. 52, the workflow was more or less under control.


    But by the time the 25-year-old nurse returned to work last Friday, just six days later, she found herself working in the same conditions she experienced during the first wave of the pandemic this spring.


    “All hell had broken loose,” Protopopova said. “Every available bed was occupied.”


    In interviews with The Moscow Times, medics working in Moscow’s primary coronavirus wards — Kommunarka and Hospital no. 15, in addition to Hospital no. 52 — described a similar state of affairs. One nurse said that in Hospital no. 15 the number of patients arriving each day doubled between Sept. 21 and Sept. 22 then tripled between Sept. 22 and Sept. 23, with the hospital completely filling up by last Wednesday.

    Moscow, the epicenter of Russia’s initial outbreak and now its resurgence, has seen daily infections increase rapidly this month, according to official statistics. In the first half of September, the numbers were hovering in the 600s. By Sept. 24, new infections had jumped to 1,050, then 1,792 two days later, before reaching 2,217 on Sept. 28 — four times as many as just two weeks earlier.

    MORE ‘We’re Out of Beds’: Russia’s Resurgent Coronavirus Outbreak Is Approaching First Peak - The Moscow Times

  18. #7593
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    Let's hope their vaccine is actually real

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    Donald Trump self-isolates after close aide tests positive for coronavirus

    Donald Trump self-isolates after close aide tests positive for coronavirus | US News | Sky News



    Donald Trump and First Lady Melania are self-isolating after one of the president's close aides tested positive for coronavirus.


    Hope Hicks, who serves as a counsellor to the president, reportedly tested positive for the disease on Thursday, the day after she travelled with the president to a rally.




    In a tweet after the news emerged, the president said: "Hope Hicks, who has been working so hard without even taking a small break, has just tested positive for Covid 19. Terrible! The First Lady and I are waiting for our test results. In the meantime, we will begin our quarantine process!"

  20. #7595
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    So looks like no second debate on Oct 7th. Tweet time, thats all he will have left.

  21. #7596
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    ^ Did he tell her he got it off a toilet seat?

  22. #7597
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    We now have two members of the Senate Judiciary Committee who have tested positive for COVID, and there may be more. I wish my colleagues well.

    It is irresponsible and dangerous to move forward with a hearing, and there is absolutely no good reason to do so.
    8:30 AM Oct 3, 2020
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    See the latest COVID-19 information on Twitter
    From twatter.

    then...
    Huffington Post reports that the two GOP senators are instead planning to quarantine for 10 days, rather than 14, which would mean they would be out of quarantine by the beginning of the scheduled hearing.
    Trump hospitalized following Covid diagnosis as ex-aide Kellyanne Conway tests positive live | US news | The Guardian

    I don't think these morons get it.
    Quarantine isn't going to help.
    Quarantine is if you have been exposed to see if you've caught it.
    Once you've caught it you need to ISOLATE untill it's gone and you test negative.
    What these idiots hope to achieve by quarantining themselves for a set period i can't imagine.
    Maybe they're hoping it'll, like magic, just go away in 10 days.
    With any luck the pair of them will be on ventilators in 10 days.
    If we stop testing right now wed have very few cases, if any. Donald J Trump.

  23. #7598
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    Who wouldn't risk a virus?


    The COVID-2019 Thread-hopeh-jpg

  24. #7599
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
    Who wouldn't risk a virus?


    The COVID-2019 Thread-hopeh-jpg
    Turn you on does he?

  25. #7600
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    An opinion from London. Some government supplied data, and a one persons opinion.

    Blain’s Morning Porridge, 1st October 2020

    "Let’s consider the facts about Coronavirus here in the UK.

    The following numbers are all from official statistics taken the NHS website collating all data on English deaths due to Covid.

    NHS England official data shows the following:

    21 people under 20 have died. 4 of them did not have an indentified pre-condition.

    217 people aged between 20 and 40 have died of Covid. 35 of them had no pre-existing conditions.


    2312 people between 40-60 have died. 270 had no pre-existing conditions.


    11343 people under 80 have died. 577 had no pre-existing conditions.


    15431 people over 80 have died. 514 had no pre-existing conditions.


    Patients with Chromic Pulmonary Disease, Respitory, and Heart Disease figure in 48% of Covid deaths. Dementia is listed in 26% of Covid deaths.


    Obesity is not recorded as a pre-existing conditions, but it is known to increase the risk to people with Covid.

    Earlier in the pandemic it was suggested ethnic minorities were also more at risk, but the numbers show 15% of deaths are from minorities which is close to their 14% representation in the population.


    There is data on hospitals – but it is only updated monthly. The last snapshot from the beginning of September shows there are over 110,000 hospital beds in England. 468 were occupied by Covid Patients. Its been largely that way since June. Things have changed since then though.


    Over the last 20 years deaths in the UK have ranged between 550k to 620K. Flu accounts for around 30k deaths in a normal year, dwarfed by Cancers, Dementia and Heart Disease.


    All the above are facts. If the facts change as we learn more then we can reassess new facts as they emerge.


    Now for some opinion:


    As I observed a few weeks ago the UK ran a successful campaign to reduce heart-attacks from 2000 only to see dementia deaths rise by roughly the same amount. The reality is we are all going to die. (Having suffered a massive sudden heart-attack after a botched operation I know they are painful, scary and nasty, but, for choice, I’d rather go quick than slowly losing it.)

    Flu deaths thru 2020-21 are likely to be lower because of Covid has already removed a large part of its target cohort. The same is true for all other major causes of death.

    We know who the vulnerable are. Protect them – shielding if necessary. We know who is less vulnerable – let them get on with life and chose their risk.

    We don’t yet know how deaths from foregone medical treatments, increased mental illness, loneliness, despair and suicide will rise. We know the impact of lost jobs and income is going to be felt most heavily among lower paid workers likely to cause long-term social deprivation issues. The young will suffer most to save the elderly.

    Having looked at the data above, the obvious conclusion is the risks are not dissimilar to a bad flu year. My question is what Facts and “Science” has Boris used to determine he is justified in wrecking the nation’s economy? Continued lockdown flies in the face of the data or cost/benefit.

    Life is about compromise. You try to get the best out of it – despite the hurdles it throws our way in terms of health, wealth and petty bureaucracy. It’s a constant process of weighing up risks and making choices accordingly.

    On balance locking down our economy to protect the elderly sounds like a courageous decision. But it’s not a good decision under any form of analysis. It does not make any economic sense. It’s not callous to suggest we have to acknowledge Covid-19 is a bad break? I am pretty sure my Dad would be furious if he’d lived to see his grand-kids’ futures compromised to give him a few extra months/years. He’d be livid.


    My conclusion is Government is now so lost, stumbling and trapped in its own narrative because it committed and went all-on on lockdown/shutdown and “saving the NHS” by scaring the pants off the population so comprehensively that now it can’t face the consequences of what its already done… Boris will no doubt tell us he destroyed the economy to save us all. The only hope for the Tories will be to dump him. With prejudice.

    Compare and contrast Sweden and UK.

    Meanwhile..

    She-Who-is-Mrs-Blain and I were supposed to be on a state visit to her homeland in Snowdonia. We’d already cancelled a trip back to Edinburgh because of renewed lockdown. We'd heard Wee Nicola Sturgeon wants to go her usual one step-beyond by authorising border guards to shoot anyone trying to escape across the border from plague ravished England. (Ok.. I made that up, but you know she would if she could…)"


    Blain’s Morning Porridge, 1st October 2020 – Losing the Plot
    Last edited by OhOh; 03-10-2020 at 08:12 PM.
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

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