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  1. #26
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    ^now that could get you arrested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post
    The point is that this 'elite' group have no divine right to take all the cash and power, it's conventional, it's framed, and many muppets buy into it so easily... They call themselves the 'good people' while they steal all the money and stop others from having equal opportunity.

    The army needs to get rid of 75% of their generals; all they do is steal and are a massive burden on the nation.
    Get rid of, or replace?

    Get rid of: decapitates the military, as one would by deposing 75% of a government filled with corrupt politicians. In this respect you should support the junta, for getting rid of 100%.

    Replace: with whom, honest, upright gentlemen?

    Yeah, right, ok...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yasojack View Post
    ^now that could get you arrested.
    Why should I be arrested? He said it, not me.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by leemo
    Get rid of, or replace?
    The army is supposed to be an army with a hierarchy that enables them to function as an army.

    In Thailand, the army is a political entity that steals money from the nation at a massive rate. The 'generals' are not needed, or functional, within the army hierarchy, but, instead, are used as a collective force/mafia to steal as much as possible. The power needs to be taken away; they rule through patronage networks at various levels in Thai society.

    75% of Thai generals could be removed without upsetting the effectiveness (has there ever been any?) of their performance as an army. However, removing them would damage their patronage networks and take away some of their power as a political group. Simples.
    How do I post these pictures???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by leemo
    Get rid of, or replace?
    The army is supposed to be an army with a hierarchy that enables them to function as an army.

    In Thailand, the army is a political entity that steals money from the nation at a massive rate. The 'generals' are not needed, or functional, within the army hierarchy, but, instead, are used as a collective force/mafia to steal as much as possible. The power needs to be taken away; they rule through patronage networks at various levels in Thai society.

    75% of Thai generals could be removed without upsetting the effectiveness (has there ever been any?) of their performance as an army. However, removing them would damage their patronage networks and take away some of their power as a political group. Simples.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of gun waving thugs that go about stealing countries and looting them. But I am also not against the coup or anything its leaders have done to date, which one should expect in the early days of such radical events.

    An army is supposed to be subservient to its people via the government, and not subject to control by a privileged few that view themselves as higher than an elected government. Step one, or obstacle one, make it so.

    But the nice people in uniform own the country right now, so like it or not we must wait to see if Prayuth et all are indeed set on saving the country from itself, or saving what they can for themselves.

    They will probably try to nudge the country towards some middle ground acceptable to both/all classes, which is a good start, though even the best of intentions do not guarantee success. And let's not fool ourselves with talk of eliminating corruption. Add a dose of reality, and most will agree corruption exists in many countries, even if here it is the cement that holds everything together.


    For now I support those in charge, even though I believe they do not have the training, competence, comprehension, experience or foresight to run a civilian country. Their second obstacle, is to find and install those qualities.

    And unless they demonstrate their voiced sincerity, which imho commits them to a steep uphill struggle with all manner of debris raining down on them, my guess is another cycle of 'Thai' politics a la 2005-2014 leading to a round of same same jokes and jokers in 2020-2022.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by leemo
    They will probably try to nudge the country towards some middle ground acceptable to both/all classes
    Do you see prayuth and his group as separate from suthep and the PADites? If so, then why has the army done everything, and there discourse is exactly the same as, suthep's PADite group and all the other PADite groups before?

    They are not treading any middle ground for the people, they are in full support of suthep, his PADites and all the other PADite groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo
    They are not treading any middle ground for the people, they are in full support of suthep, his PADites and all the other PADite groups.
    yep , you will be reconciled , our way .

    good luck with that , suspect we all know the outcome , even those here who desperatly want to believe elsewise ..................

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by leemo
    They will probably try to nudge the country towards some middle ground acceptable to both/all classes
    Do you see prayuth and his group as separate from suthep and the PADites? If so, then why has the army done everything, and there discourse is exactly the same as, suthep's PADite group and all the other PADite groups before?

    They are not treading any middle ground for the people, they are in full support of suthep, his PADites and all the other PADite groups.
    There is no solution, and anyone claiming to have one is either deluded or lying. There is only an outcome that can be marketed as satisfying enough people to keep the peace, naturally with a host of unknowables. This is why I am not confident of a peaceful outcome to this coup, though facts on the ground offer only the choice of giving this lot a chance.

    If it becomes clear that they intend to impose and enforce what Suthep kicked off then greater minds than ours will see there is no middle ground and the bleak choices are restoration of the pre-Thaksin era of subservience by ignorant masses to the great Thai institutions and its looters, or - no pun intended, just the sad reality - major civil strife for elected looters. The former invariably becomes the catalyst for the latter. Others might not see it that way, especially those high enough to believe they are too big to fall; the fallen are always guilty of sharing that notion.

    But there are positives and negatives, arguments for and against, with no side or position being objectively right or wrong. One stark example being that they hurt the country with yet another a coup, but did move to end the madness of the past months.

    And ftr I do not think that this or any other bunch of gun totting or mandate waving individual or group have the means, intent, hope or chance in hell to undo generations of time-warped Thai culture, tradition and mindset.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by leemo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by leemo
    They will probably try to nudge the country towards some middle ground acceptable to both/all classes
    Do you see prayuth and his group as separate from suthep and the PADites? If so, then why has the army done everything, and there discourse is exactly the same as, suthep's PADite group and all the other PADite groups before?

    They are not treading any middle ground for the people, they are in full support of suthep, his PADites and all the other PADite groups.
    There is no solution, and anyone claiming to have one is either deluded or lying. There is only an outcome that can be marketed as satisfying enough people to keep the peace, naturally with a host of unknowables. This is why I am not confident of a peaceful outcome to this coup, though facts on the ground offer only the choice of giving this lot a chance.

    If it becomes clear that they intend to impose and enforce what Suthep kicked off then greater minds than ours will see there is no middle ground and the bleak choices are restoration of the pre-Thaksin era of subservience by ignorant masses to the great Thai institutions and its looters, or - no pun intended, just the sad reality - major civil strife for elected looters. The former invariably becomes the catalyst for the latter. Others might not see it that way, especially those high enough to believe they are too big to fall; the fallen are always guilty of sharing that notion.

    But there are positives and negatives, arguments for and against, with no side or position being objectively right or wrong. One stark example being that they hurt the country with yet another a coup, but did move to end the madness of the past months.

    And ftr I do not think that this or any other bunch of gun totting or mandate waving individual or group have the means, intent, hope or chance in hell to undo generations of time-warped Thai culture, tradition and mindset.
    The problem is that the whole discourse of "they're all as bad as each other..." is fake.

    The ultra royalists set up that discourse, so that they can be seen as the "good people" who will save the nation, time after time. The reality is the opposite, these ultra royalists set up the patronage system to be abused as it is, and that is exactly what they are doing, taking all the money. If we were allowed to openly discuss the CPB and other related issues then it would clearly be seen how massive these money mountains are and exactly who controls them.

    There is a solution, and it's the same solution that has played out and continues to play out in every society/country throughout history: the movement from feudal minorities controlling the wealth to a more evenly distributed "democratic" society. This movement has always entailed the feudal lords, supported by their armies, losing their control over social discourse and the ability to frame it with them as the "good and educated" people who are entitled and born to lead... This movement is not binary with the poor against the rich per se, it is complex and can play out in a variety of ways, but it always ends the same way with the feudal lords losing, and losing badly...

    Some may complain that this has been explained in an idealistic manner, but that is simply semantics, we are all thinking creatures based on ideas and ever-changing conventions as a base point; the pragmatic elements are built upon those foundations - it is not binary, it is inherently interconnected.

    Thus, the junta are not some saviours from the corrupt politicians, the junta are the enforcement arm of the heart of the corruption, the heart of the patronage system - hence why they are so determined to control discourse in this area; once discourse challenges the root of the patronage system, it's a downward slope for the system. Hence, and what many folks seem not to realize, how important every stand, every book reading, every refusal to accept the framed discourse is...

    EDIT to add: this entire effort from the PAD/junta is a desperate effort to reframe society and renegotiate their position in society to maintain the central position of their patronage system against the force of a changing/evolving Thailand. There is no effort against corruption, there is no desire to help the people, there is no consideration of betterment for society in any group manner - the effort is solely for a minority to keep everything as they have done since the 1930s (which was the initial reframing of society with an ultra-nationalist/ultra-royalist focus which has worked so well for them).
    Last edited by Bettyboo; 01-06-2014 at 02:54 PM.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo

    Thus, the junta are not some saviours from the corrupt politicians, the junta are the enforcement arm of the heart of the corruption, the heart of the patronage system - hence why they are so determined to control discourse in this area; once discourse challenges the root of the patronage system, it's a downward slope for the system. Hence, and what many folks seem not to realize, how important every stand, every book reading, every refusal to accept the framed discourse is...
    Spot on .

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    What's Next:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo

    Thus, the junta are not some saviours from the corrupt politicians, the junta are the enforcement arm of the heart of the corruption, the heart of the patronage system - hence why they are so determined to control discourse in this area; once discourse challenges the root of the patronage system, it's a downward slope for the system. Hence, and what many folks seem not to realize, how important every stand, every book reading, every refusal to accept the framed discourse is...
    Spot on .
    Since they seem so well organized, it is scary to think what they are really planning...And they are buying time to prepare...They simply can't afford to lose another election...

    So, just how are they going to win it?...Of course, I mean with a "moderate amount of fairness"...

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaitongBoy
    So, just how are they going to win it?

    the junta ?

    gerrymanda .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yasojack View Post
    His whole speech is laughable.

    Though i do agree there really has to be change or it will continue,just not sure if his reforms will benefit your average thai, time will tell.
    They're not supposed to...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post

    The problem is
    ..........
    Very good post. I would, at first instinct, add that progress is inexorable and the longer delayed the greater the cost.

    However, having observed a lot of modern history I am not at all sure that (global) societal progress *is* inexorable. I used to think so, but of late I'm starting to wonder if we're not actually somewhere at the top of a sine curve. In fact, I'm starting to lean quite strongly towards that hypothesis, for a number of reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFree
    However, having observed a lot of modern history I am not at all sure that (global) societal progress *is* inexorable. I used to think so, but of late I'm starting to wonder if we're not actually somewhere at the top of a sine curve. In fact, I'm starting to lean quite strongly towards that hypothesis, for a number of reasons.
    It does seem like that from our 'democratic' development there has been somewhat of a 1984 downward movement controlled by big business, etc, I'd agree.

    For me, that doesn't negate the stage that Thailand is at: feudal to democratic. And, it makes it even more imperative that the SE Asian/E Asian countries develop beyond feudalism to see if they can improve over our current state! I have to say, being in Korea now, I am optimistic - they were in a similar state to Thailand not so many years ago, but now young people have more power, corruption is disliked by the majority (who have a voice) and the power of the military and powerful families has very much declined, as well as the judicial system having developed sufficiently that massively wealthy corrupt officials and persons of influence can be held accountable. It can happen and very quickly...

    Unfortunately, folks believe the propaganda in Thailand, not least folks on this board (never mind the likes of TV...), as facts rather than conventionally contrived for purpose...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFree
    However, having observed a lot of modern history I am not at all sure that (global) societal progress *is* inexorable. I used to think so, but of late I'm starting to wonder if we're not actually somewhere at the top of a sine curve. In fact, I'm starting to lean quite strongly towards that hypothesis, for a number of reasons.
    It does seem like that from our 'democratic' development there has been somewhat of a 1984 downward movement controlled by big business, etc, I'd agree.

    For me, that doesn't negate the stage that Thailand is at: feudal to democratic. And, it makes it even more imperative that the SE Asian/E Asian countries develop beyond feudalism to see if they can improve over our current state! I have to say, being in Korea now, I am optimistic - they were in a similar state to Thailand not so many years ago, but now young people have more power, corruption is disliked by the majority (who have a voice) and the power of the military and powerful families has very much declined, as well as the judicial system having developed sufficiently that massively wealthy corrupt officials and persons of influence can be held accountable. It can happen and very quickly...

    Unfortunately, folks believe the propaganda in Thailand, not least folks on this board (never mind the likes of TV...), as facts rather than conventionally contrived for purpose...
    Not arguing or belaboring the point, but you have to keep in mind that states like Korea moved ahead in different times, even if it wasn't that long ago. Pressures building today were not as acute.

    Here's hoping though.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFree
    Korea moved ahead in different times, even if it wasn't that long ago. Pressures building today were not as acute.
    Well having a nuclear armed nut-job neighbour to the north just itching to press the red button (no, not RickThai), tends to focus the mind on things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFree
    Korea moved ahead in different times, even if it wasn't that long ago. Pressures building today were not as acute.
    Well having a nuclear armed nut-job neighbour to the north just itching to press the red button (no, not RickThai), tends to focus the mind on things.
    They can thank their lucky stars Ricky wasn't running the show in N Korea, I'll grant you that.

    But military pressure is not what I'm referring to. There are far greater pressures building on society than simple war.

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    You could see America as a powerful positive force in Korea (Albert no doubt wouldn't...) where a lot of the aid/support was so vital that the US was able to put pressure on social changes. The corrupt army and elite families in Korea were no more willing to give it up than the junta and PADites in Thailand!

    Hence why the Aussie, US, EU comments, sanctions, etc do make a difference - it all builds pressure... Change does happen.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by leemo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by leemo
    They will probably try to nudge the country towards some middle ground acceptable to both/all classes
    Do you see prayuth and his group as separate from suthep and the PADites? If so, then why has the army done everything, and there discourse is exactly the same as, suthep's PADite group and all the other PADite groups before?

    They are not treading any middle ground for the people, they are in full support of suthep, his PADites and all the other PADite groups.
    There is no solution, and anyone claiming to have one is either deluded or lying. There is only an outcome that can be marketed as satisfying enough people to keep the peace, naturally with a host of unknowables. This is why I am not confident of a peaceful outcome to this coup, though facts on the ground offer only the choice of giving this lot a chance.

    If it becomes clear that they intend to impose and enforce what Suthep kicked off then greater minds than ours will see there is no middle ground and the bleak choices are restoration of the pre-Thaksin era of subservience by ignorant masses to the great Thai institutions and its looters, or - no pun intended, just the sad reality - major civil strife for elected looters. The former invariably becomes the catalyst for the latter. Others might not see it that way, especially those high enough to believe they are too big to fall; the fallen are always guilty of sharing that notion.

    But there are positives and negatives, arguments for and against, with no side or position being objectively right or wrong. One stark example being that they hurt the country with yet another a coup, but did move to end the madness of the past months.

    And ftr I do not think that this or any other bunch of gun totting or mandate waving individual or group have the means, intent, hope or chance in hell to undo generations of time-warped Thai culture, tradition and mindset.
    The problem is that the whole discourse of "they're all as bad as each other..." is fake.

    The ultra royalists set up that discourse, so that they can be seen as the "good people" who will save the nation, time after time. The reality is the opposite, these ultra royalists set up the patronage system to be abused as it is, and that is exactly what they are doing, taking all the money. If we were allowed to openly discuss the CPB and other related issues then it would clearly be seen how massive these money mountains are and exactly who controls them.

    There is a solution, and it's the same solution that has played out and continues to play out in every society/country throughout history: the movement from feudal minorities controlling the wealth to a more evenly distributed "democratic" society. This movement has always entailed the feudal lords, supported by their armies, losing their control over social discourse and the ability to frame it with them as the "good and educated" people who are entitled and born to lead... This movement is not binary with the poor against the rich per se, it is complex and can play out in a variety of ways, but it always ends the same way with the feudal lords losing, and losing badly...

    Some may complain that this has been explained in an idealistic manner, but that is simply semantics, we are all thinking creatures based on ideas and ever-changing conventions as a base point; the pragmatic elements are built upon those foundations - it is not binary, it is inherently interconnected.

    Thus, the junta are not some saviours from the corrupt politicians, the junta are the enforcement arm of the heart of the corruption, the heart of the patronage system - hence why they are so determined to control discourse in this area; once discourse challenges the root of the patronage system, it's a downward slope for the system. Hence, and what many folks seem not to realize, how important every stand, every book reading, every refusal to accept the framed discourse is...

    EDIT to add: this entire effort from the PAD/junta is a desperate effort to reframe society and renegotiate their position in society to maintain the central position of their patronage system against the force of a changing/evolving Thailand. There is no effort against corruption, there is no desire to help the people, there is no consideration of betterment for society in any group manner - the effort is solely for a minority to keep everything as they have done since the 1930s (which was the initial reframing of society with an ultra-nationalist/ultra-royalist focus which has worked so well for them).
    No disputing what you say, but there are still the same courses for the country, change vs no change.

    For change;

    1 - Bite the bullet and do it, radical changes, revolution, civil war, call it as you wish, but volatile events occurring very quickly. Add some blood, more than makes most people queasy, and it won't work anyway. It may feel like change but that's because when the dust settles there will be different faces at the trough.

    2 - Consciously move towards democracy, something between the Thai and Western versions, in small but still painful steps. Let the looters do what they do best, because there's no stopping that. And this won't work either, because it's not important who's in charge or where they would like to take the country; that'll come later. It's the mentality and expectations of the people that need to be addressed, and this can only be lifted through education. Now, would you care to discuss Thai education? It is abysmal, and for my money designed to produce dumb people that stay obligingly dumb.

    So am I saying there's no solution. Sure I am, solutions won't appear just because they're needed. We can discuss it till the next dozen coup masters have raped the country, and nothing will change until the people know what they want instead of wanting what they are told.

    As for no change, the one course leading to that ironically risks changes that not even our well armed glorious leaders would relish.


    Don't forget, not long ago under the Church/State it was a capital offence for the majority to read or write. It took a while for those holding power to chill out, in small doses with the occasional surge thrown in for good measure. And it was bloody, but it worked.

  21. #46
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    Who does the Thai military answer to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rural Surin
    Who does the Thai military answer to?
    For a very long time, the PC, prem.

    Mods, you will likely delete this, fair enough, but is it wrong or against any laws to ask and answer such questions?

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by leemo
    So am I saying there's no solution.
    Maybe talking about solutions makes the discussion difficult. Perhaps social change is easier wording? I'd also agree that most, if not all, 'riotous/civil war style' social changes (as seen in England and France) led to a leader/leaders who were as bad as the one deposed. Only after that does democracy develop; it's a process and people are always corrupt, hence why the system itself needs changing (it'll likely be corrupted at a later date too, but social change would have happened).

    Quote Originally Posted by leemo
    Don't forget, not long ago under the Church/State it was a capital offence for the majority to read or write. It took a while for those holding power to chill out, in small doses with the occasional surge thrown in for good measure. And it was bloody, but it worked.
    But now it has changed, right? The masses are empowered and the 'elites' don't have so much power, right?

    I agree that in our history these events took a very long time, and we just don't know how long similar events will take in Thailand. This is one of the problems, Thailand has developed technologically and socially, in some ways, in a couple of decades when the same development took many centuries in the UK, etc. When I say 'Thailand developed' that's not strictly speaking true either, but they have democratic institutions, cars, MRT, computers, etc, all having been thrust upon them from the west - how their politics will develop, and how quickly, is unknown, but we do have examples such as Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, even Singapore, all different, but all have changed massively in a small period of time. Myanmar, Cambodia and Laos, less so...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post
    You could see America as a powerful positive force in Korea (Albert no doubt wouldn't...) where a lot of the aid/support was so vital that the US was able to put pressure on social changes. The corrupt army and elite families in Korea were no more willing to give it up than the junta and PADites in Thailand!

    Hence why the Aussie, US, EU comments, sanctions, etc do make a difference - it all builds pressure... Change does happen.
    What if all the goodnik countries are wrong?
    As they often are towards most everything.

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    Well, certainly the idea of American democracy, land of the free, etc, is rather loaded. But it's somewhat better than North Korea and Myanmar. I know which country I'd rather be brought up in, educated in, have freedoms in. I'm not suggesting it's perfect by any means.


    “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”

    ― Winston Churchill

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