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  1. #1876
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    Quote Originally Posted by longway
    In the meantime I suggest you lay off drinking the politically motivated flood water, as it is addling your senses.
    Utter nonsense! It'll never evolve if it isn't given the chance, do you think there is a single democracy in the world, including the first Greek democracies that began it all, that didn't/doesn't have their growing pains and obstacles? It is ALWAYS a work in progress in EVERY existing democracy and there will always be people/politicians trying to take advantage but the system needs to sort it's own out and no one from out side a given country has the right to determine how that democracy develops, your standards do not matter except in your own country.. But if there is no democracy there is no chance for one to develop..
    Last edited by FloridaBorn; 09-06-2014 at 10:04 AM.

  2. #1877
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPETER65
    to be changed overnight.
    Exactly! Which is why the military needs to stand down and let it evolve over time and do what military's are supposed to do, protect it's country from outside aggressors not play politics or the police, that's what the real police and the ELECTED officials are for ...

  3. #1878
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPETER65 View Post


    I am not ignoring what this is all about, I just don't believe more of the same corrupt govt., more protesting in the streets, more people dying is going to achieve the results you desire, Thailand has been as it is for too long to be changed overnight. Change will only come after generations of excellent education, and a reshaping of the Thai. culture, you will not see that by simply getting back to the same corrupt govt.
    Where you're wrong, well apart from morally, is that nothing changes because one side know they *don't* have to negotiate. They know the military will step in and they'll get their way. Like a spoilt child that has learnt it gets it's way by throwing a tantrum. So the cycle is just perpetuated, which is what you say you don't want.

    Remove the coup option and there would have been negotiations. Protests and pressure till there is, not protests and pressure just for the sake of forcing their way.

    That is the way out. This is just perpetuating the cycle, screwing the lid down tighter every time till the vessel can't stand it anymore.



    How do you feel about the fact that you can support an idea openly but not criticise it openly? Very moral? I can't argue with you my friend. You have force on your side. For that reason I'll shaddup forthwith, not because of respect but because of force.

    If you want the high ground, never argue a case that may not be criticised. There be oppression.
    Last edited by FlyFree; 09-06-2014 at 10:50 AM.

  4. #1879
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    ^^ I understand your passion, but if its a work in progress why should it be dominated by elected oligarchs, why will it never evolve if the military interferes from time to time?

    thailand has had at least 12 'successful' coups, and was the most democratic country in SE asia and more democratic than many more countries.

    democracy can still evolve this is a historic fact. its taken several steps back in the last 10 years, but who's fault is that? its at least as much that of elected oligarchs as that of unelected ones. both hate democracy with a passion.

  5. #1880
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFree View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RPETER65 View Post


    I am not ignoring what this is all about, I just don't believe more of the same corrupt govt., more protesting in the streets, more people dying is going to achieve the results you desire, Thailand has been as it is for too long to be changed overnight. Change will only come after generations of excellent education, and a reshaping of the Thai. culture, you will not see that by simply getting back to the same corrupt govt.
    Where you're wrong, well apart from morally, is that nothing changes because one side know they *don't* have to negotiate. They know the military will step in and they'll get their way. Like a spoilt child that has learnt it gets it's way by throwing a tantrum. So the cycle is just perpetuated, which is what you say you don't want.

    Remove the coup option and there would have been negotiations. Protests and pressure till there is, not protests and pressure just for the sake of forcing their way.

    That is the way out. This is just perpetuating the cycle, screwing the lid down tighter every time till the vessel can't stand it anymore.



    How do you feel about the fact that you can support an idea openly but not criticise it openly? Very moral? I can't argue with you my friend. You have force on your side. For that reason I'll shaddup forthwith, not because of respect but because of force.

    If you want the high ground, never argue a case that may not be criticised. There be oppression.
    yes its true the democrats forced this coup, but without the coup option would politicians once elected be ever kept in check? how are they held in account? its not by elections, this only has a limited impact if all you do is transfer power from one set of oligarchs to another.

    the military is part of this country's checks and balance, though of course its a piss poor one, but whats the alternative? in reality, not in your dream.

    i disagree they are pressing the lid down tighter, they are letting out steam IMO. they have knocked some heads togther and thats a good thing. they are biased, but so what, its better that they are biased against an elected government in a country like thailand than 100% in cahoots with it, then that would indeed to screwing the lid on tighter and tighter.

  6. #1881
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    ^^Well lets try this scenario. Right now there are many Americans very disenchanted with the US POTUS, as in fairness they were with the previous one too towards the end of his terms. Is it an option to cry and whine until the military takes action and ousts him?

    No it isn't, in spite of me and many wanting him out sooner rather than later, our system of democracy does not allow our military to intervene and rightfully so, as it is with EVERY 1st world civilized government and NONE of them would exist without the opportunity to develop and work out the differences and kinks without military intervention.

  7. #1882
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPETER65
    the same old Shiniwatra clan leading back to mass corruption
    The same old Generals leading back to... what?
    The same old shit. Corruption was even worse then.
    Quote Originally Posted by RPETER65
    How do you suggest getting rid of the Shiniwatra clan without the strength of the army?
    With or without, they cannot. Potjaman is a considerably bigger clan that Shin's btw, as are Silpa-Archa, Suthep & several others. Fantasyland.

  8. #1883
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    ^^ Is the usa and Thailand directly comparable? Is Thailand a 1st world country?

    Is Malaysia progressing 'democratically'? Is cambodia on its way to becoming a 1st world country? Both have elections only and no interference from teh military. who has been better off in the last 60 years, the average indian citizen or the average thai one.

    You cannot just trasplant a piss poor electoral system that muddles along in a country like the USA or the UK and expect anywhere near the same results for its citizens.

    I am sure you are aware of the Princeton study that shows in a 20 years period between 1981 and 2002 the opinion of the average voter carried no weight whatsoever in the policies promugated by successive governenments, its a dead end unrepresentative system.

    Now put that similar system in Thailand and imagine how bad it can be for the people here, it sort of works in the USA as its a very different place.

    The kind of electoral politics you advocate is devatsting to most countries that adopt it, its hurts them bad. If Thailand is doing something different, its not necessarily bad, its just different.

    It could be awful I agree, but there is someway yet before a judgement can be formulated.

  9. #1884
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    ^What you're either intentionally being obtuse to or just not getting is that all of those countries in harsher times had to go through the same growing pains to get to their destinies as democracies and the trip is STILL not over.. But, at least the military's of those countries do not interfere with the process, thereby allowing it to develop naturally, which is massive reason they've developed into something resembling fair and impartial democracies..

  10. #1885
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by "RPETER65"
    the same old Shiniwatra clan leading back to mass corruption
    The same old Generals leading back to... what?
    The same old shit. Corruption was even worse then.
    Quote Originally Posted by "RPETER65"
    How do you suggest getting rid of the Shiniwatra clan without the strength of the army?
    With or without, they cannot. Potjaman is a considerably bigger clan that Shin's btw, as are Silpa-Archa, Suthep & several others. Fantasyland.
    Actually the Yingluck government was rated the same that the 2006 military junta for corruption. Its interesting that though the perception lessened during the Thaksin heyday, its world ranking actually decreased ie was more corrupt compared to other countries, and during abhist's government the government's perception of corruption increased, but its ranking increased ie was less corrupt compared to other countries. yingluck's government was the first time thailand increased in its perception of corruption and also went down in the ranking at the same time. so there. those clans are not driving the conflict, Thaksin is driving the conflict, without him alot of this will cool down, though of course the problems will remain, though Thailand could actually start dealing with its problems once this conflict is over, until then its real problems may get addressed.

  11. #1886
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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaBorn View Post
    ^What you're either intentionally being obtuse to or just not getting is that all of those countries in harsher times had to go through the same growing pains to get to their destinies as democracies and the trip is STILL not over.. But, at least the military's of those countries do not interfere with the process, thereby allowing it to develop naturally, which is massive reason they've developed into something resembling fair and impartial democracies..
    Destiny? Developed naturally? And I am being obtuse?

  12. #1887
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    Quote Originally Posted by longway
    If Thailand is doing something different, its not necessarily bad, its just different.
    Different indeed! As some wiseman once said, "Democracy comes in many forms".
    This particular form not my cup of tea but perhaps it's the best Thailand can practice for now.

  13. #1888
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by longway
    If Thailand is doing something different, its not necessarily bad, its just different.
    Different indeed! As some wiseman once said, "Democracy comes in many forms".
    This particular form not my cup of tea but perhaps it's the best Thailand can practice for now.
    Yes, more brief and to the point but essentially saying the same thing..

  14. #1889
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by longway
    If Thailand is doing something different, its not necessarily bad, its just different.
    Different indeed! As some wiseman once said, "Democracy comes in many forms".
    This particular form not my cup of tea but perhaps it's the best Thailand can practice for now.
    First off, let me state categorically; I do not give a flying fuck what the Thai do that doesn't impact me directly right now as I am fully occupied trying to sort out my own substantial problems.

    That said, I still have a semi-functioning brain, I think, and therefore an opinion.

    Thailand has never had a democracy. In any form. How anyone can say that with a straight face I do not know.

  15. #1890
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEVIN2008
    alluring female dancers in suggestive camouflage miniskirts
    photos please.

  16. #1891
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by longway
    If Thailand is doing something different, its not necessarily bad, its just different.
    Different indeed! As some wiseman once said, "Democracy comes in many forms".
    This particular form not my cup of tea but perhaps it's the best Thailand can practice for now.
    Thats the bs you have been fed; oligarchies come in many forms too, you have a pill that you have labelled democracy and you are hell bent in shoving it down Thailand's throat, if you actually looked at the contents of the pill it would be an oligarchy and it would just be another poison.

    Its been proved time and time again to be devastating to most countries that adopt electoral oligarchy, when will you ever stop being self righteous enough to stop prescribing it?

    If Thailand's going to have some form of oligarchy, why does it have to be an electoral oligarchy? Whats wrong if elected and unelected oligarchs are hostile to one another and neither dominate? As long as they don't let it spill over on the streets, how on earth does it affect the average thai? Maybe he will be better off if they keep each other weak. The weaker oligarchs are the stronger the average person.

    You guys don't even have a democracy in your own country, you have a 'work in progress' how on earth a US citizen with a straight face can rail against a military intervention in a country's 'destiny' is beyond me.

    Have you already forgotten what you have been doing in SE asia for decades? Forget that, look at Egypt, 'not a coup', and Ukaraine, 'not a referendum' and Iraq 'Opportunity for freedom' and Afhanistan 'just coz we can'

    Lets stop with this democracy charade and get real.

  17. #1892
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    What form of governance should/could replace Democracy?

    Are there different forms/flavours of Democracy?

  18. #1893
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    ^ There is no democracy to replace. Just choices of various forms of oligarchies. Stop using the word democracy please, when it applies to Thailand or the USA or the vast majority of the world its just an empty label.

    Which is the best form of oligarchy for Thailand? Should electoral oligarchs get to dominate everything?

  19. #1894
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    What form of governance should/could replace Democracy?
    Are there different forms/flavours of Democracy?
    Apologies, meant to apply the idea to all counties - not Thailand in specific.

    We see major issues in Africa, where folks actually understand African Socialism - not the Democracy flowing out of Westminster.

  20. #1895
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    Quote Originally Posted by longway
    Lets stop with this democracy charade and get real.
    Thailand has been one of the best performing economies in the world under a democracy. Do you think it will be under a military junta? Perhaps we should ask the Burmese.

    Anyway, this was in the truest sense of the word a 'military' (or tigers) coup- naturally we are not being told the real reason, the restoring order mantra is just a sop.

  21. #1896
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    ^ Its not a choice between a military junta and an electoral oligarchy is it? Its how the power is divvied up between oligarchs once elections have been held. Stop using the word democracy - its a lie.

  22. #1897
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    Quote Originally Posted by longway
    Its not a choice between a military junta and an electoral oligarchy is it?
    It's no choice at all right now- but given the choice, corrupt oligarchs squabbling in a parliamentary system is far preferable to military autocracy- just compare the results. A major problem with Thailand has always been transparency- and (hence) accountability. That has just deteriorated significantly, due both to the dissolution of parliament and draconian media censorship, not to mention intimidation and stifling of dissenting voices.

    Quixotically though, it has resulted in the people of Thailand talking much more about 'the situation', and Thailands dirty laundry being well aired internationally. In one night of cable TV viewing down in Pattaya, I saw Giles Ungaporn & Bob Amsterdam interviewed on Australia network, a special called 'Thailands coups' (or close) on France 24, and another special on another news channel- and they were quite candid. That is probably a good thing, although I doubt the woefully misnamed 'royalists' agree.

  23. #1898
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waid View Post
    What form of governance should/could replace Democracy?

    Are there different forms/flavours of Democracy?
    Ermm Britain has one of them.. So the answer would be yes..

  24. #1899
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by longway
    Its not a choice between a military junta and an electoral oligarchy is it?
    It's no choice at all right now- but given the choice, corrupt oligarchs squabbling in a parliamentary system is far preferable to military autocracy- just compare the results. A major problem with Thailand has always been transparency- and (hence) accountability. That has just deteriorated significantly, due both to the dissolution of parliament and draconian media censorship, not to mention intimidation and stifling of dissenting voices.

    Quixotically though, it has resulted in the people of Thailand talking much more about 'the situation', and Thailands dirty laundry being well aired internationally. In one night of cable TV viewing down in Pattaya, I saw Giles Ungaporn & Bob Amsterdam interviewed on Australia network, a special called 'Thailands coups' (or close) on France 24, and another special on another news channel- and they were quite candid. That is probably a good thing, although I doubt the woefully misnamed 'royalists' agree.
    Its not a choice between a autocracy and an oligarchy, its just a squabble between oligarchs played out in the streets and now the unelected oligarchs have played their trump, parliamentary squabbles will be back soon enough, all that will have changed is that elected oligarchs will not be as powerful as before, and unelected oligarchs will be more powerful than now.

    Is this is this such a big deal for the average Thai?

    and as you say thais are talking more, isnt this far more important than the ludicrous so called red/yellow divide, neither of whom represent anything but a tiny minority of thais.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaBorn View Post
    ^^Well lets try this scenario. Right now there are many Americans very disenchanted with the US POTUS, as in fairness they were with the previous one too towards the end of his terms. Is it an option to cry and whine until the military takes action and ousts him?

    No it isn't, in spite of me and many wanting him out sooner rather than later, our system of democracy does not allow our military to intervene and rightfully so, as it is with EVERY 1st world civilized government and NONE of them would exist without the opportunity to develop and work out the differences and kinks without military intervention.

    In America it's called impeachment.

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