Suthep threatens to 'shut down' Bangkok afer New Year holidays

**taxexile** · 08-03-2014, 10:47 AM

So what is your definition of 'intelligent vote'? Someone who votes democrat, presumably. An increasingly rare species.

LT beat me to it. see above.

i dont really have much preference for any of the players in this clusterfuck. they are both as bad as each other, as corrupt as each other, as dishonest as each other and as greedy as each other.

you think that a thaksin led government is better than a suthep led one, dont be a fool, they are both self serving and corrupt, which is why i would like to see thaksins lot kicked out, but wanting the PT out doesnt mean wanting the dems in.

neither of them are fit for purpose.

whats the answer? in thailand the answer seems to be to sweep it all under the carpet, fight it out and carry on as before. sensible right thinking thais keep out of politics, politics is for jungle animals here.

their pride and unwillingness to accept defeat leaves them unable to embrace a decision reached by democratic process, if the dems won the reds would behave in exactly the same way as sutheps mobs. a year or so after an election they would also be on the streets whinging about some obscure law that had been broken, some grievance and demanding impeachments and resignations and causing havoc until they got their own way.

thats thailand. and it will need a revolution to change it for the better.

i think it will soon happen though, within the next 5 years. until then, keep sweeping.

**taxexile** · 08-03-2014, 10:57 AM

democracy in action, in a supposedly educated country

"Bus Pass Elvis Party beats Lib Dems"

"As part of his manifesto Mr Bishop had pledged to tighten laws on hand gun ownership and legalise brothels with a 30% discount for OAPs"

BBC News - Bus Pass Elvis Party beats Lib Dems in election

(thanks to mr. lick for the link)

**sabang** · 08-03-2014, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by taxexile

you think that a thaksin led government is better than a suthep led one

Absolutely. But that sure ain't saying it's good. More to the point, we know what the Thai think. At the end of the day, they vote according to the choices they are given- as do we all. Improve the choices, and you will get somewhere.

**taxexile** · 08-03-2014, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by taxexile

you think that a thaksin led government is better than a suthep led one

At the end of the day, they vote according to the choices they are given- as do we all. Improve the choices, and you will get somewhere.

see post 1702 and link !!

**terry57** · 08-03-2014, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Loy Toy

.

If anyone disagrees with my view that is up to them but that does not stop me believing they are just as hoodwinked as the majority of Thai voters.

May I also state that all the players on board at the moment are as bad as each other which is a shame for Thailand and it's people.

Just about sums it up nicely I'd say.

The guys that are bleating on that the current Government is better than a yellow Government are simply talking rubbish, it is their own perceptions that makes them think this but in reality it means absolutely nothing. Its only their opinion and they are entitled to it.

Why my above statement is true is that if a Yellow Government does indeed over throw this current Government what will Change ?

Absolutely nothing will change because Thailand's politics can never change whilst this same scenario plays over time and time again.

Betty and Dr Bob are particularly fired up over the Red Yellow issue.

Betty seems to pass himself off as particularly knowledgeable about all things concerning Thai politics.

Betty is certainly very well informed but to consider himself correct on all issue I suggest is stretching it a tad.

My feeling is after viewing all the protest sights and now witnessing the protesters in Lumpini park is that Suthep has lost the edge now the protest its confined to the park.

Life on the street has returned to normal and if one is not around Lumpini the protests are out of mind.

Be interesting to see how it pans out.

**terry57** · 08-03-2014, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by taxexile

I don't really have much preference for any of the players in this clusterfuck. they are both as bad as each other, as corrupt as each other, as dishonest as each other and as greedy as each other.

Whats the answer? in Thailand the answer seems to be to sweep it all under the carpet, fight it out and carry on as before.

Really good sensible post Tax and wraps it up really.

In conclusion its fair to say that posters such as Dr Bob and Betty who get so wrapped up in the Politics are simply pissing in the wind.

The situation under the present Political system can never change. This situation will be repeated for ever.

I'm not having a crack at Dr Bob or Betty but just pointing out that all their political rhetoric is a wasted effort and a tad over the top.

**taxexile** · 08-03-2014, 12:11 PM

In conclusion its fair to say that posters such as Dr Bob and Betty who get so wrapped up in the Politics are simply pissing in the wind.

quite so.

I'm not having a crack at Dr Bob or Betty

me neither,

but ....

harrumphing, blathering, intellectualising, quoting laws, rules and constitutional procedure and rights (and labelling everyone who disagrees with you as a moron) might be the thing to do in the ivory tower or the library over a glass of port and a cigar, but in the corrupt cesspit that is thai politics nobody gives a flying fuck about rights, laws and procedure.

in thailand, just a deft lick of an arse and a grease of a palm is all that is necessary in order to get ones way, organise some lawyers or muscle and stomp on whoever happens to be irritating you at the time.

**Yasojack** · 08-03-2014, 12:20 PM

The present situation is coming to a head, something has to change or it could well become another egypt syria etc.

**terry57** · 08-03-2014, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Butterfly

But the reds were terrorists, and that's a fact

all paid by Thaksin money,

Look I do not want to get too far into this stuff as its simply normal Thai practices to me and I'm well used to all aspects of it.

I must also say I'm never surprised about any thing in this country and consider all the mad stuff that happens as business as usual. That includes murders, rampant corruption and other assorted happenings.

Back to the violence committed on both sides.

Betty has given us a run down on the yellow shirts antics since the start of the protests so lets put that up against Thaksin's effort.

Firstly he issued an order to off all the drug dealers that the police came across in their work. Killed a shit load of them.

Some people didn't like that and complained that Thaksin was a cold blooded murderer. Myself thought it was the correct course of action as it removed a heap of scum from the streets and put the word out that you will be offed if caught peddling YA-Ba and assorted nasty stuff.

Ive talked to a few Thai people about it and these people I talked to considered it a brilliant move as it had effect. Normal people had no fear concerning Thaksins actions. Only the drug dealing scum where effected.

Next is the killing of the Muslims down south when Thaksin's boys put people into the back of that truck and many suffocated.

Hey, its a war zone , Muslims behead people down there and kill many innocent Thai people going about their business. Burn schools, kill monks and teachers.

Bit of bad luck concerning the truck business but things happen in war zones.

Anyway, in conclusion one side is no worse than the other when all is said and done.

Leave them to it.

**Yasojack** · 08-03-2014, 12:39 PM

Terry do you know what suthep and co want to do?

**terry57** · 08-03-2014, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Yasojack

The present situation is coming to a head, something has to change or it could well become another Egypt Syria etc.

Look Jack,

You live in the middle of bumfuk Nakon fuking Nowhere and now you're an Expert on Thai politics and telling all and sundry that the country is going to dissolve into civil war and go down the shitter.

You know shit as you're not in Bangkok, have not witnessed this nor have any first hand knowledge. You're only regurgitating what you scrape up from various places.

Any person who was around in 2010 and even 1990 when it really kicked off will tell you quite correctly this time round its been piss all.

I was on the streets and 2010 and 1990 when it really went mad.

Where where you Jack. ?

**The Ghost Of The Moog** · 08-03-2014, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by sabang

Absolutely. But that sure ain't saying it's good. More to the point, we know what the Thai think. At the end of the day, they vote according to the choices they are given- as do we all. Improve the choices, and you will get somewhere.

But before one-man-one-vote is of any use. One needs the nuts and bolts;

1) Reform of defamation laws
2) Abolition of lese majeste laws.

Then: nascent political parties can incubate.
Then: the one-man-one-vote actually means something - in a context that lends itself to it.

Simply to jump straight to the one-man-one-vote without getting the other parts right underneath.....is a bit like wrapping a cow turd in a sheet of fine wrapping paper. It just doesn't work.

**Yasojack** · 08-03-2014, 12:56 PM

So are you going to answer the question or what? or as you do avoid the question because you not know.?

Originally Posted by terry57

Originally Posted by Yasojack

The present situation is coming to a head, something has to change or it could well become another Egypt Syria etc.

Look Jack,

You live in the middle of bumfuk Nakon fuking Nowhere and now you're an Expert on Thai politics and telling all and sundry that the country is going to dissolve into civil war and go down the shitter.

You know shit as you're not in Bangkok, have not witnessed this nor have any first hand knowledge. You're only regurgitating what you scrape up from various places.

Any person who was around in 2010 and even 1990 when it really kicked off will tell you quite correctly this time round its been piss all.

I was on the streets and 2010 and 1990 when it really went mad.

Where where you Jack. ?

**terry57** · 08-03-2014, 12:57 PM

^ ^

And that's exactly why the Yellow shirts want reform before an election as nothing will change politically if no reform is done.

Not supporting Yellows, just saying like.

**terry57** · 08-03-2014, 01:00 PM

^^

Sorry Jack,

Communicating with you on any subject is not worth my effort unless I feel like it.

Dig it. My rules Jack.

**Yasojack** · 08-03-2014, 01:03 PM

thought you would say something like that.

Your only concern is about you and only you and how best to enjoy your holiday here.

**sabang** · 08-03-2014, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by The Ghost Of The Moog

But before one-man-one-vote is of any use. One needs the nuts and bolts;

1) Reform of defamation laws
2) Abolition of lese majeste laws.

Chicken n egg, innit? We can hardly expect the judiciary, bureaucracy, government 'agencies' etc to reform from within. Neither for real reform to be an overnight process. One long term approach is for the top layers of such bureaucracies to be more representative of the Thai population, which they quite clearly are not. Thus, age old nepotistic networks and practices must be eroded too- and this may be the toughest battle of them all.

So where to begin? I would suggest, the political will. By which I don't mean vapid promises to eliminate corruption, or spurious accusations that the incumbent government is corrupt (too). Rather, solid policies, real bipartisan 'commissions', and a defined, step by step approach. Realistically, this will not come from PT as long as takkie's around, and dem's continue to volunteer swan dive at the polls. Neither from the Dem's, because the 'public sector' will oppose any real reform quite tenaciously, I wager, and after suthep (the reformer

) they are surely the dem's biggest remaining electoral base. They are a patrician, not reform party.

For better or worse, TRT exploited an opportunity- the provincial vote. For better or worse, it was waiting to happen. Such an opportunity exists now, but the political will doesn't- although the Peoples will surely does. In the meantime, they retain the right to pick their preferred color of slop.

**Norton** · 08-03-2014, 02:10 PM

Some interesting comments here. I first set foot on Thai soil in 1964. I was inexplicably taken by the country. And no, had nothing to do with the abundance of pussy. Being a history buff I decided to find out as much as I could about it's history, people, cultures, politics, laws and economy. From 1964 to 1974 I worked closely with the Thai Military here in Thailand and in Vietnam. In 1975 went to work for a US company that did a lot of business with the Thai government and private industry. I eventually moved here in 1986 and have been here ever since doing business with various government agencies and private enterprises. Some time along the way I acquired a family. Given this background a few comments.

Government and private business is rife with corruption. Matters not the politics of an individual. Point out all you please about the corruption of the party you don't support. Exercise in futility. As some have noted, not going to change no matter which political party is in power. The crisis of the day has nothing to do with ridding corruption in politics.

From the start of this I saw hair on fire comments on this board about civil war and the splitting of Thailand down the middle. The two individuals, Suthep and Thaksin, involved and their backers in this current pissing contest will never allow it. It won't happen. Way too much money and power to be lost.

Then a bunch of posts about a coup. For several reasons the Army is in no mood for a coup. It won't happen.

The elections will be continued and concluded.

A year from now, this crisis will pass. Pass into history as many far worse have. Yes, there will likely be another because several things need to happen before all Thai citizens are treated with equality. In my short time in Thailand significant progress has been made toward a better form of Democracy.

The most puzzling thing is comments I see here. "Thailand doesn't deserve democracy because the electorate are uneducated ignorant peasants". All aimed at those who vote for PT. Come on folks. Give us a break. You surely don't believe folks in the South who vote for the Dems are somehow magically endowed with superior intelligence! Also, let's be honest with ourselves. Electorates in western democracies aren't the sharpest tools in the shed either. Folks vote for the party who offers and delivers something the voter wants. No different here in Thailand.

Last but not least, the idea that foreigners do not understand Thailand and should stay out of their politics is not on. Agree we should not be running around waving our banner of choice but those of us who have extended families here and have a desire to see they have a better life sure as hell don't want all the progress made since the 1997 Constitution erased.

As I said above. This is not about removing political corruption. Label me red but I reject Suthep and the PDRC agenda. An agenda which has but one goal. Take away the right to vote!

**Bettyboo** · 08-03-2014, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Loy Toy

A vote decided upon based on one's understanding of governmental policies and how those policies mean long-term benefits to that voter.

So, 80% in Britain and Australia wouldn't get the vote, and 90%+ in the USA. This is your belief, fine, but it doesn't fit with understood and accepted democratic principles.

Originally Posted by Loy Toy

That is why the vote buying for very little money targeting the electorate majority poor rural communities won the day.

I wouldn't agree. The PADites want power because it suits their group. The dems want power because it suits their group. The same is true of PT and every other party (in Thailand and the world?).

There are 2 problems here:

1) The politicians are not the problem. The people that stop accountability, transparency, blind justice and equal opportunity are the problem - the root of which is the patronage system which 'allows' people to be above the law; i.e. the PC, the CPB, the army, the judges. It has also more recently been abused with the current constitution and the appointed senators. All this is the heart of the problem, the politicians and the problems in politics are a result of this.

2) The political parties need to move away from feudal localized patronage (i.e. the 'banharn' style/problem), and work on national policies. PT have done this to an extent, but still regionalized (even though it is focused on the largest group, so it can thus be justified as 'better' than anything else available - and hence why they keep winning elections and the mandate of the electorial majority). Thus, PT is an improvement over what has been available before or what is available now, but it still needs to be developed - a shame that aghisit and the dems have zero interest in developing national policies that include everyone; if they did, they would win a national vote. The dems are a far bigger problem than PT...

Hence, the elitist alliance with the dems is the heart of the problem. If the judges just got on with blind justice, the dems just got on with making national policies, the army just got on with, well, they have nothing to do but stay in the barracks..., then we would have no problems, and democracy would develop. If Thaksin and his group are soooo corrupt then a strong, free, fair, blind judicial system would naturally deal with it. At no point have the dems, army, PADites, etc, attempted to improve the judicial system or accountability and transparency in society - actually, they've been doing the opposite for their own gain...

**The Ghost Of The Moog** · 08-03-2014, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by The Ghost Of The Moog

But before one-man-one-vote is of any use. One needs the nuts and bolts;

1) Reform of defamation laws
2) Abolition of lese majeste laws.

Chicken n egg, innit? We can hardly expect the judiciary, bureaucracy, government 'agencies' etc to reform from within.....

Yes, thats right. It is a case of chicken and egg.

But the right to vote is heavily prejudiced without these other things. In some senses it is futile.

The danger is that having the one man one vote, without fixing the defamation laws and so on, may cause a false sense of security. i.e that one believes one owns something precious, (when actually, it is quite flawed underneath)

...and so

Originally Posted by Norton

. An agenda which has but one goal. Take away the right to vote!

Who, after all wants to lose their vote.? Nobody of course. I wouldn't (even though I don't vote in Hong Kong).

...it hearkens to the Thai phrase 'garm kee dee kwar garm todt'

=' to hold shit is better than to hold a fart'

But nevertheless, at the moment, with those antiquated defamation and lese majeste laws, the vote isn't worth the paper is written on (as we are seeing).

Fix the laws, which would encourage the incubation of tiny nascent parties, and the voting, one day, may have more teeth. For now, the electoral process is screwed in Thailand, through both design and intention.

This structural issue will last longer than our lifetimes. It'll take generations to do properly.

**Butterfly** · 08-03-2014, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by Bobcock

that is not acceptable to the'entitled'

Perhaps it is about time for the 'entitled' (at least those on "My" political side of the 'entitled') to wake up and realise that if they continue to stuff up the nation and alienate it's voters this way, they will no longer be the 'entitled'- merely the begrudgers.

hence my original argument that Thailand politics will not change without a true Socialist revolution, or at least a true Socialist opposition party that is not part of any coalition

**Butterfly** · 08-03-2014, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by Bobcock

Thaksin's popularity changed it forever.

never before had someone had the numbers to dominate a parliament, to have a single party in power. It was all about coalitions, which even though we still have them are not he same as in the past.

Before every party had a share of the pie and were happy, didn't really matter who was head pig at the trough, they all got rich not serving the people.

what changed everything is the 1997 constitution and the power flaws it was promoting, it quickly became a magnet for a megalomaniac tyrant like Thaksin (he wasn't alone, just more popular by using powerful marketing techniques).

Of course the 1997 crisis also changed everything, suddenly the "people" realized that their leaders didn't have all the answers and were "losing face" for not providing a magical solution to the crisis. The painful IMF process was blamed on foreigners as usual, but the real pain was felt on the ground and a lot of resentment of the locals went against the "classic" Thai politicians in power then.

The 1997 constitution paved the way for an ambitious man with a lot of money to create a very large coalition and control the entire country with a few twists. His arguments were that he was a billionaire and therefore didn't need the money and therefore wouldn't steal from the state coffer and would help instead everyone to recover from the 1997 crisis thanks to his acute business skills. His second arguments was of national pride after the humiliation of 1997 and the painful IMF process. In the process, he forged an alliance with what is now the "PAD" nationalists, basically right wing fascists. By creating a large coalition, he was also offering the "classic" politicians and their political parties a way to "cleanse" themselves from their past mistakes by being merged into a new political party. Basically buying themselves a second political life (see Chavalit) as long as they hold their allegiance to Thaksin as the supreme leader. This is PT today, and the rest is history.

**Bettyboo** · 08-03-2014, 06:16 PM

^strangely, considering it's from Paps, there is plenty of truth and reasonable comment in that post.

But, Thaksin is still a smaller problem than the bluebloods who took over in the 1930's. Thaksin is neither the original problem nor the larger problem... Politics cannot evolve while the patronage system is in place and the 'elites' are above the law to steal sums of money that makes Thaksin's fortunes look pathetic...

Taking away the vote empowers these bluebloods; that taking away one man one vote is needed for 'democratic progress' is a total red herring that sadly many posters have bought into... Shamefully so...

We don't want people like Thaksin ruling the country, but we have had that, and far worse, since the 1930s thus movement forward towards strengthening democracy is required. Once again it means accountability, transparency and the rule of law. The people who are most against that are the army and ultra-royalists; maybe some of you need to ask yourselves why that is so...

**The Ghost Of The Moog** · 08-03-2014, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

Taking away the vote empowers these bluebloods; that taking away one man one vote is needed for 'democratic progress' is a total red herring that sadly many posters have bought into..
...

Not 'taking away'....'taken away'

The one-nan-one-vote thing is gone in Thailand, as present circumstances illustrate. Doesn't matter how much you like it personally.

The government can't win over the country if it doesn't carry Bangkok - and this one does not.

The most impressive thing about Thailand's democracy is arguably not the vote boxes from the northeast, but that it allows the taxpaying minority to express itself so vocally. In Hong Kong we have been warned by Beijing that civil disobedience will be punished - by presumably some restriction to voting for the Cheif Exec in2017.

ps Just wondering. Do any of you expats who are Thai residents get to vote?

**Marmite the Dog** · 08-03-2014, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by taxexile

you think that a thaksin led government is better than a suthep led one, dont be a fool, they are both self serving and corrupt, which is why i would like to see thaksins lot kicked out, but wanting the PT out doesnt mean wanting the dems in. neither of them are fit for purpose.

Yes, they're all self-serving and generally useless, but the PT/TRT were elected democratically and therefore have the right to govern.

Originally Posted by taxexile

if the dems won the reds would behave in exactly the same way as sutheps mobs. a year or so after an election they would also be on the streets whinging about some obscure law that had been broken, some grievance and demanding impeachments and resignations and causing havoc until they got their own way.

The red were on the streets to protest against the illegal, undemocratic actions of the 'elites'. The red are the only visual defenders of democracy in Thailand.

Thread: Suthep threatens to 'shut down' Bangkok afer New Year holidays

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