Page 13 of 29 FirstFirst ... 35678910111213141516171819202123 ... LastLast
Results 301 to 325 of 708
  1. #301
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    96,565
    Shouldn't you be back in your office?


  2. #302
    I am in Jail

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Last Online
    28-03-2013 @ 09:01 AM
    Posts
    1,410
    Hey, harrybaracuda, you conviently forgot to include this (from the same website where you got the deceitful, stupid Dr Ron McDowall, who, here, is shown to be a phony by the real experts.

    War of words over Chiang Mai tourist deaths report

    Aug 15, 2011


    When New Zealand 60 Minutes reporter Sarah Hall wrapped her arms around a tearful Emma Carter in the final seconds of its To die for episode on the death of her daughter Sarah Carter while staying at the Downtown Inn in Chiang Mai, Thailand earlier this year, few people could be forgiven for thinking that the evidence was overwhelming that chlorpyrifos poisoning was to blame, and Chiang Mai authorities were guilty of a sinister cover-up.

    However, while 60 Minutes was careful to use the word “theory” twice in the programme, statements by its expert, scientist Dr Ron McDowall, in the final minutes of the programme that the symptoms exhibited by Ms Carter prior to her death “perfectly” fitted with chlorpyrifos poisoning, left little room for doubt in most peoples minds.
    Sarah Hall: "the trace amounts that we found suggests the amount (of pesticide/chlorpyrifos

    On this newsblog and other websites a number of people were quick to point out that the tiny amounts of chlorpyrifos found in swabs taken from the room by Ms. Hall – 0.10 micrograms per million – were insufficient to kill, and that for death to occur via skin absorption and inhalation the room would have had to be literally dripping with the chemical. Shortly following the 60 Minutes episode Chiang Mai Provincial Governor ML Panadda Disakul struck back at the 60 Minutes episode, claiming there was no medical proof to substantiate the claims made in the programme that chlorpyrifos applied by a fumigator was to blame.

    The report also angered what are arguably New Zealand’s three leading toxicologists, Dr Wayne Temple, director, of New Zealand’s National Poisons Centre (NPC), Dr Michael Beasley, a medical toxicologist at the NPC, and Dr John Reeve, the principal adviser (toxicology) for the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, and a member of the World Health Organization (WHO) roster of experts for the Joint Expert Committee on Food Additives.
    Chlorpyrifos claim misleading

    Dr Ron McDowall: The symptoms that she had and the way she (Sarah Carter) died fit "perfectly"

    The three New Zealand scientists were so concerned over the conclusions presented and the manner in which they were derived, that they fired off an angry letter to the programme accusing it of misleading Ms Carter’s parents “into believing that they now know what caused their daughter’s death”.

    The letter describes the 60 Minutes swabbing of hotel rooms at the Downtown Inn in Chiang Mai as “naîve”, pointing out that swabs were not taken from rooms other than that in which Ms Carter had stayed, so “the results of the tests were of little value.

    “Clearly, for the pesticide to be implicated in the illness, it would be expected that the rooms in which those who became ill were sleeping would have much higher levels of clorpyrifos in them; while if all rooms had similar (and/or only trace) levels of pesticide in them, this would indicate that it was unlikely that the pesticide had anything to do with the illness reported on.”

    The three toxicologists also criticised the appropriateness of the programme’s “scientific expert”, Dr McDowall, stating “it appears the that the “experts” used on the programme had little or no relevant expertise because they concluded that chlorpyrifos was the causative agent”.

    The letter concludes by highlighting that the NPC has toxicology experts available to the media and questions why this resource was not tapped, and predicts that the programme “might be obliged to contact the parents again to correct the probably misleading conclusions that your programme has drawn”.

    Chlorpyrifos “only a theory”


    New Zealand's three top toxicologists fired off an angry letter to 60 Minutes saying the parents and those interested in the Chiang Mai tourists deaths now know no more than before. Click to view the full letter

    Dr Michael Beasley confirmed it’sthe letters authenticity and referred comment on behalf of the authors to Dr John Reeve, who said “the parents know no more now than before the report”.
    “Organophosphates such as chlorpyrifos are picked up fairly quickly in laboratories and while it dissipates from the body fairly quickly, if levels are such to cause death they would be detectable for about six weeks post-mortem”, he said

    Responding to the letter 60 Minutes New Zealand reporter Sarah Hall said the programme “never unequivocally said that chlorpyrifos was the cause of Sarah Carter’s death – although I note this is how it was reported in Thailand”.
    “What we said is that traces had been found and it was a theory. We said that it was just a theory at least twice in our story.”

    Ms Hall attached a letter from Dr McDowall, in which he concludes with: ” In the absence of food poisoning, virus and any other pathology the OP poisoning was put forward as a theory.”
    Ms Hall ended her reply with: “I think you may agree he [Dr McDowall] has far more practical experience than the toxicologists named in your letter”.
    Inappropriate expertise

    Response by Dr Ron McDowall to claims that the theory chlorpyrifos was responsible for the death of Sarah Carter was flawed. Click image to read the full reply.

    Shown the 60 Minutes New Zealand and Dr McDowall’s response, Dr Reeve said that while Dr McDowall, “is clearly very expert in his field of toxic waste…our contention is that their expert does not have relevant experience.

    “What is clear from Dr McDowall’s comments is that his expertise is clearly in toxic waste, and his relevant experience (in toxicology) is essentially self-taught.
    Highlighting part of Dr McDowall’s response in which he states: “Many of the deaths involving OPs were from women using paraquat or Chlorpyrifos as a suicide agent”, Dr Reeve states:

    “Paraquat is not an OP as the beginning of his sentence implies. Paraquat is a well-known suicide agent and its toxicity does not present as OP poisoning at all”

    Regarding the heart damage found in some of the Chiang Mai tourist deaths, Dr Reeve says, “notwithstanding Dr McDowall’s comment, the Poisons Centre experts say that myocarditis is very rare in OP poisoning, and while not all of the classic signs may be seen in any one case, many would be present, and we are not aware of any case where actual OP poisoning did not present with depressed acetylcholinesterase.”

    Acetylcholinesterase, also known as AChE, is an enzyme that degrades the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, producing choline and an acetate group, and is also found on the red blood cell membranes.

    Victims would have to have been soaking in chlorpyrifos


    Depressed levels of the enzime acetylcholinesterase, also known as AChE, would have been evident if chlorpyrifos was the cause of death claim New Zealand toxigologists

    Agreeing with comments posted on previous stories here, Dr Reeve said “the toxicity of chlorpyrifos via skin absorption is quite low – the victims would have to be soaking in it to absorb enough to cause severe illness and death, and it has a smell that one could not fail to notice.

    “Analytical detection methodology these days is so good that extremely small levels of chlorpyrifos can be detected.

    “Even with a half-life of hours (as chlorpyrifos has) the amount that would have to have been in the body to cause death would have been sufficiently high that it is inconceivable that it could not still be found in the samples taken when the victims reached hospital.

    “Further, all OPs cause depression of acetylcholinesterase and as the bonding of OPs to this enzyme is chemical, regeneration of levels in blood can only arise from replacement of blood cells and this usually takes up to six weeks, so the depression would have been found.”

    Dr Reeve sad that his and his colleges view was that while 60 Minutes claim they only presented chlorpyrifos as a theory, “I certainly did not detect that, and Dr McDowall certainly claimed that the signs in the victims exactly matched those of chlorpyrifos poisoning – a claim that we dispute and suggest in fact that none of the signs matched.

    “One can only conclude that the story mislead the parents of Sarah Carter as they stated that they now knew what had killed their daughter. “These clusters [of deaths] occur and it’s quite possible a common cause won’t be found”, he said

    Last edited by guyinthailand; 27-06-2012 at 04:24 AM.

  3. #303
    I am in Jail

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Last Online
    28-03-2013 @ 09:01 AM
    Posts
    1,410
    "Agreeing with comments posted on previous stories here", Dr Reeve said “the toxicity of chlorpyrifos via skin absorption is quite low – the victims would have to be soaking in it to absorb enough to cause severe illness and death, and it has a smell that one could not fail to notice".

    Hey, harrybaracuda, can you guess who made the comments he is referring to? That's right. Me. Yours truly. I was the first to call this skin exposure B.S. and now, lo and behold, I've got the real experts agreeing with me. I'd rather have a brain in my head and be able to figure stuff out with fewer 'qualifications' than to have lots of 'qualifications' and not be able to figure stuff out.

    So you wanted to know what my qualifications are: I figured stuff out without benefit of lab work. I figured stuff out that your vaulted Dr McDowall got completely wrong. Plus, if he had had the brains to swab many other rooms, then we'd know more.

    And thanks loads, harrybaracuda, for posting that article because it led me to the next article (above) that shows I was the first to call this chlorpyrifos-by-skin the B.S. that it is and now, thanks to you, I find out a year later, the three top New Zealand toxicologists back me up.
    Last edited by guyinthailand; 27-06-2012 at 04:51 AM.

  4. #304
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    96,565
    I was the first to call this skin exposure B.S.
    Sadly, this seems to be all it's about to you.

    You come up with these hare-brained theories from the Internet, fill in the gaps with supportive claims from the Internet, and then show everyone what an "expert" you are.

    Again, I'm asking you to provide any credentials you may have, or even citations, that show you to have *any* experience in the field.

    Even your reference fails to note that it is of little importance if suitable quantities of the chemical were found on their arrival in hospital: The Thais simply covered it up and any evidence was destroyed, so whatever your Internet doctors say is quite irrelevant given what happened in situ. Remember how the elderly couple died of "vigorous sex"?

    You are simply, as ever, asking the the wrong questions, mixing it with irrelevant facts you've waste hours hunting for on the Internet, and then drawing an absurd conclusion.

    Yes, you are an Armchair Expert.
    The next post may be brought to you by my little bitch Spamdreth

  5. #305
    I am in Jail

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Last Online
    28-03-2013 @ 09:01 AM
    Posts
    1,410
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda;2141128[/quote

    You come up with these hare-brained theories from the Internet,
    My 'hare-brained' theories were later backed up by the top three toxicologists in New Zealand and your 'expert' was shown by me to be blatantly phony and deceitful which was also backed up by those same three toxicologists.

    And all you can manage is a broken-record sound.
    Last edited by guyinthailand; 27-06-2012 at 04:23 AM.

  6. #306
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    96,565
    There is nothing more I need to say, every piece of "evidence" you produce is flawed, or ignores obvious facts that don't suit your conspiracy theory.

    Like I said, the classic behaviour of the Armchair Expert.

  7. #307
    I am in Jail

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Last Online
    28-03-2013 @ 09:01 AM
    Posts
    1,410
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    There is nothing more I need to say, every piece of "evidence" you produce is flawed, or ignores obvious facts that don't suit your conspiracy theory.

    Like I said, the classic behaviour of the Armchair Expert.
    Nothing I've said is 'flawed'. Prove it big guy.

    The only 'mistake' I made was my earlier guess of 80% male visitors to Thailand, which I, at the time, said was only a guess. Turns out it is 60%, and women around 40%, so my pointing out the deaths are primarily 70% Western women is noteworthy, but doesn't necessarily prove anything by itself, I admit. But, when taken in context of everything else, indicates these deaths are much more likely to be murder than accident.

    Everything else I've presented has been right on, so right-on, in fact, that I beat New Zealand's top three toxicologists to the punch with my analysis of the B.S. chlorpyrifos in the Chiang Mai deaths, which those toxicologists are on record as saying they agree it couldn't be dermal or inhalational chlorpyrifos (and not ingested chlorpyrifos, either, according to both lab tests and symptoms, (which lab tests I just today learned of).

    All you are is an arm-chair sniper who doesn't have very good aim.
    Last edited by guyinthailand; 27-06-2012 at 02:24 AM.

  8. #308
    I am in Jail

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Last Online
    28-03-2013 @ 09:01 AM
    Posts
    1,410
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post

    Even your reference fails to note that it is of little importance if suitable quantities of the chemical were found on their arrival in hospital: The Thais simply covered it up and any evidence was destroyed, so whatever your Internet doctors say is quite irrelevant given what happened in situ.

    Not true. You need to read the report by the Real toxicologists from New Zealand who said if it had been chlorpyrifos by any means (dermal, skin, ingest) then they would have found acetylcholinesterase depression in the bodies. Plus, chlorpyrifos does not usually cause myocarditis--extreme heart damage--which is what even the Thais admit the victims died from.
    Last edited by guyinthailand; 27-06-2012 at 08:46 AM.

  9. #309
    Out there...
    StrontiumDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    BKK
    Posts
    40,030
    24 Hours Vancouver

    Dad suggests coverup in daughters' Thailand deaths

    By Pierre-Olivier Zappa, QMI Agency


    A small-town grocer who lost both of his daughters on a disastrous vacation to Thailand earlier this month has accused Thai authorities of covering up the true circumstances of their deaths.

    Carl Belanger, who will bury Noemi, 26, and Audrey, 20, on Saturday, made the accusation during an emotional interview with QMI Agency on Tuesday.

    A maid found the sisters' bodies in their hotel room on June 15 on Phi Phi island, a popular tourist location south of Bangkok.

    The sisters were students at Laval University in Quebec City. They worked at their father's grocery store in their hometown of Pohenegamook, about 200 km northeast of Quebec City.

    Thai officials speculated the women likely died of food poisoning, but Carl says the Thai autopsy and the actions of hotel staff were suspicious.

    He told QMI that it took too long to discover the bodies and to examine them, and he said police didn't keep him informed about their progress.

    "The authorities say they found the bodies 12 hours after their death. According to our calculations it was 48 hours," he said in French.

    Subsequent reports indicated hotel surveillance video shows a man leading the women to a room.

    A source says police in Thailand are looking for two Portuguese men who were guests at the hotel, but that both have since left the country.

    Despite his grief and frustration, Belanger praised the work of Canadian Embassy officials who he said repatriated his daughters' bodies quickly.

    The bodies were examined at a laboratory in Montreal and have since been given back to the family. Autopsy results have yet to be released.

    Belanger admits he had concerns about his daughters' trip to Thailand and Vietnam despite the fact Noemi was an experienced traveller. He said he expressed his worries to his daughters the last time he contacted them.

    "I was dreading Thailand," he said. "(I told them) they should end that trip."

    He said Noemi had studied in China for three months. She also took a psychology course in Paris and had also travelled to Mexico, England and all across Canada.

    The young women spoke with their parents every second day during their trip to Thailand.

    "The week of the tragedy, the last contact we had with them was Monday night," he said. "After that, no more news. My wife kept saying, 'Carl, this is bothering me.' Then we received word of their deaths Saturday morning."

    His voice cracking, he read Audrey's final letter in which she praised her parents.

    "First off, we take a moment to thank you for having brought us into this world in Canada, for giving us good values, for giving us the passion to travel, and especially to just for having been our parents. "

    Audrey ended her letter with words of love that have comforted the grieving family.

    "I love you very, very much, say hi to the family for us."
    "Slavery is the daughter of darkness; an ignorant people is the blind instrument of its own destruction; ambition and intrigue take advantage of the credulity and inexperience of men who have no political, economic or civil knowledge. They mistake pure illusion for reality, license for freedom, treason for patriotism, vengeance for justice."-Simón Bolívar

  10. #310
    Member
    yortyiam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Last Online
    01-09-2023 @ 09:02 AM
    Location
    in transit
    Posts
    831
    That poor guy. Having those doubts about LOS and then the worst possible scenario happens. JHC give this Family strength. AND answers soon.

  11. #311
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    96,565
    Quote Originally Posted by guyinthailand View Post
    Nothing I've said is 'flawed'. Prove it big guy.
    I already have, and I'll repeat them for the last time, since you cannot refute them without making yourself look even sillier:

    (1) Phi Phi and Chiang Mai are not noted for luring thousands of single males, and you know this, so your statistics were fundamentally flawed to begin with; and in the first case you stated your 80% as if fact, when they were your wild guess - something that you only admitted when you were challenged. Typical airchair expert behaviour.

    (2) You have no idea the number of Thais who may have fallen foul of pesticides in this way. Therefore you cannot say this is simply a farang or even female phenomenon. You can only go on these high profile foreigner cases that receive international attention.

    (2) A 40-year veteran of toxic chemicals knows less than you, despite having all that experience, an armful of credentials, papers and other publications to his name - you have none, but you know more than him. Yeah, good luck with that one

    (3) You rule out pesticide but fail to answer why the BiB in Chiang Mai had already raided the pest control company before the Kiwis announced their findings. What was that then, a lucky guess? Or do you have an outlandish excuse for this as well?

    Similarly, the rest of your hypotheses are sentence fragments that match your zany serial killer theory, and conveniently ignores any statements that might contradict it such as:

    LD 50 thresholds also are variable and often I have seen death where a tenth of the LD 50 has been consumed or inhaled.
    Note the use of the word inhaled, because for some reason you keep obsessing with skin absorption.

    Despite McDowall's findings stating quite clearly that he had personal experience of where the symptoms *fitted*, and the presence of excessive amounts of this particular pesticide in the AC *weeks* after the fact, you choose to exclude his expert opinion in this case and call him an "idiot" simply for not agreeing with you, despite you having NO credentials in this field.

    In fact in typical fashion you jumped on a news report about a few other Kiwi doctors who were probably upset that they were not the ones consulted by TV for their opinions, and who by the sounds of it have seen none of the actual medical evidence in this case.

    So you've made up your fairy story, and you'll keep trying to pad it out with bits and pieces from here and there, but the truth is you are ignoring many of the simple facts, and the opinion of a published 40 year veteran, who you have the gall to claim is an "idiot" for not agreeing with your "expert" verdict. I reckon you should email him and tell him he is an idiot, and tell him why. I would love to see the response you get if you had the balls to do so. But of course, you don't, and no doubt you'll want to tell me "I don't need to, why should I?" just to kop out of it.

    Everyone linked with the DownTown Inn died because of Thai negligence, specifically overzealous use of a harmful pesticide, probably wrongly administered (even the Thai Public Health alluded to this until they were told to shut up), and it was covered up because the owner is an influential nob (or I think, knob) in the Chiang Mai hierarchy. This is pretty well public knowledge in the Chiang Mai community, Thais included, and it's why people went around warning people off the hotel - in person and online - to the point where they've now admitted defeat.

    You must live some dull life that you have to run around inventing serial killers and murder mysteries where there are none.

    I only hope the Thais don't manage to do the same job on this case of the two Canadians, and that some useless Thai c**t gets nailed for it.

    But you know Thailand enough to know they will probably have already warped or destroyed enough evidence so that they don't have to pin it on some one, and you can fill the gap by inventing sinister, shadowy killers.

    Like I said, Armchair Expert.

    Still, if you wish to convince us that Dr. Ron is indeed an idiot, and you are right, then here is his email:

    ron@mcdowall.ac.nz

    I challenge you to email your opinion to him and tell him why you are right and he is
    "an idiot".

    But of course, you won't.

    Because you're a fucking armchair expert, and armchair experts don't like being out in the sun.

  12. #312
    I am in Jail

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Last Online
    28-03-2013 @ 09:01 AM
    Posts
    1,410
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    (1) Phi Phi and Chiang Mai are not noted for luring thousands of single males,
    the male/female thing is the least of my assertions, yet you keep harping on it only because your simpleton's mind has seized on my earlier wrong 80% guess as somehow being earth-shattering.

    but, for the record, here's a Fact: Western women are the primary victims in these deaths to the tune of about 70% when only 40% of visitors to Thailand are female. Including non-western women tourists makes the Western women stand out even more. Who is 'in' Thailand: men 60% of tourists, women 40% of tourists'; Western women portion of total women tourists--who knows, but less than 40% because a lot of the 'big' 40% includes women from non-Western countries; 25 million Thai men; 25 million Thai women....And...who is dying? Western women, primarily

    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    (2) You have no idea the number of Thais who may have fallen foul of pesticides in this way.
    tens of thousands of hotel rooms in Thailand with millions and millions of visitors every year and you think, somehow, all of a sudden, out of the blue, these mostly Western women's deaths are not an anomaly. You and your ilk suggest it was accidental. If that were true, then there would be many, many more cases like this AMONG TOURISTS. And they wouldn't all be primarily Western women. And, yes, we would also hear about it among Thais, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    (2) A 40-year veteran of toxic chemicals knows less than you,
    The top three toxicologists are on record as saying Ron McDowall is an idiot. I am on record as saying he is an idiot AND deceitful (see above posts).


    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    (3) You rule out pesticide
    I never ruled out pesticides in general. I was among the first to say it was probably pesticides. I ruled out inhaling and dermal exposure to chlorpyrifos, and I'm now vindicated in that in spades, baby. Plus, toxicology results and symptoms do not match even ingesting chlorpyrifos.

    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    but fail to answer why the BiB in Chiang Mai had already raided the pest control company
    What is your IQ, harrybaracuda? 69? I have always said I thought these women were deliberately poisoned. Still don't get it, do you? Okay, harry, I'll spell it out for you: Of course the Thais want to raid some pesticide company, that way they can make it look like an accident instead of a killer killing Western women. It's called saving face.

    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    LD 50 thresholds also are variable and often I have seen death where a tenth of the LD 50 has been consumed or inhaled.Note the use of the word inhaled, because for some reason you keep obsessing with skin absorption.
    I'm not obsessing with anything, you nincompoop. I'm responding to those who make these ridiculous dermal and inhalation allegations. Not only I but the 3 top toxicologists and poison experts in New Zealand debunked the inhalation and dermal idea, not only using available scientific literature but also showing how 1) cholinesterase levels would have been drastically lowered in the bodies (they weren't) and 2) Organophosphates (OP) like chlorpyrifos do not usually cause cardiomyopathy. But the lack of lowered cholinesterase levels are the kicker.

    "In their letter to 60 Minutes disputing the imputation that chlorpyrifos was to blame, New Zealand’s three top toxicology experts said all “OPs cause depression of acetylcholinesterase and as the bonding of OPs to this enzyme is chemical, regeneration of levels in blood can only arise from replacement of blood cells and this usually takes up to six weeks, so the depression would have been found” (See: War of words over Chiang Mai tourist deaths report).

    "The report also said tests at the US-CDC and German laboratories on samples from the three New Zealanders returned negative results for chemicals such as sodium monofluoroacetate (compound 1080) and phosphine gas, a widely used, cost effective, fumigant that does not leave residue on the stored product and which contains aluminium". (note: phosphine gas comes from Aluminum Phosphide)

    But let's assume, for argument's sake, dying from lower doses on the skin or inhaled, even if McDowall were right then that would make it EVEN MORE LIKELY that there would have been way, way more deaths like this, especially since chlorpyrifos is the most heavily used pesticide in the world, and there are tens of thousands of tourist hotel rooms in Thailand with millions and millions of visitors a year. You and McDowall have just proven, in a roundabout sort of way, exactly why this inhale/absorb on skin idea is completely moronic. (But A 10 year old could have figured this out)!

    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Despite McDowall's findings stating quite clearly that he had personal experience of where the symptoms *fitted*,
    ... a news report about a few other Kiwi doctors who were probably upset that they were not the ones consulted by TV for their opinions,
    Okay, I'm sure the 'toxic WASTE' expert from the UN knows more than three experts in the field of medicine, toxicology and poisoning. Having a hard time dealing with reality, harrybaracuda?

    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Everyone linked with the DownTown Inn died
    All the people who died weren't staying in the Downtown Inn. There were three other hotels involved (for Bill Mah, Soraya Vorster Pandola, and the un-named French woman).

    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    But you know Thailand enough to know they will probably have already warped or destroyed enough evidence so that they don't have to pin it on some one,
    Finally, you made a statement that makes sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    ron@mcdowall.ac.nz

    I challenge you to email your opinion to him and tell him why you are right and he is "an idiot". But of course, you won't.
    He doesn't need to be told he's an idiot from me. He's already heard it from the three real experts from New Zealand.
    Last edited by guyinthailand; 27-06-2012 at 04:22 AM.

  13. #313
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    96,565
    Quote Originally Posted by guyinthailand View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Everyone linked with the DownTown Inn died
    All the people who died weren't staying in the Downtown Inn. There were three other hotels involved (for Bill Mah, Soraya Vorster Pandola, and the un-named French woman).
    Typical armchair expert behaviour. You have deliberately twisted what I said to create an untruth.

    I said:
    Everyone linked with the DownTown Inn died because of Thai negligence
    Not everyone linked with the DownTown Inn died.

    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    ron@mcdowall.ac.nz

    I challenge you to email your opinion to him and tell him why you are right and he is "an idiot". But of course, you won't.
    He doesn't need to be told he's an idiot from me. He's already heard it from the three real experts from New Zealand.
    Yes, like I said, you haven't got the balls because you know you would be ridiculed, and come out with some lame excuse.

    Utterly predictable Armchair expert response.

  14. #314

    R.I.P.


    dirtydog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Pattaya Jomtien
    Posts
    58,763
    How 'bout this, western women eat salads and shit, real men don't eat rabbit food, pesticides on the salads is the cause, either that or brain slurping anal probing aliens.

  15. #315
    Have you got any cheese Thetyim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Mousehole
    Posts
    20,893
    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydog
    How 'bout this, western women eat salads and shit
    Well if it was voluntary then I can't rule out suicide

  16. #316
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    96,565
    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydog View Post
    How 'bout this, western women eat salads and shit, real men don't eat rabbit food, pesticides on the salads is the cause, either that or brain slurping anal probing aliens.
    One might skew the statistics in a way GiT would never accept, the other one would skew them in a way most of us would never accept.

    Plus you have failed to mention the.....



  17. #317
    Dislocated Member
    Neo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Last Online
    31-10-2021 @ 03:34 AM
    Location
    Nebuchadnezzar
    Posts
    10,609
    Are there any real answers out there yet?

  18. #318
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    96,565
    Well maybe the Canadians will find something, but my guess is not.

  19. #319
    Out there...
    StrontiumDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    BKK
    Posts
    40,030
    Autopsy result for Canadian sisters due next week - The Nation

    Autopsy result for Canadian sisters due next week

    The Nation June 29, 2012 1:00 am

    Bangkok's Ramathibodhi Hospital director said the autopsy results for the two Canadian sisters who were found mysteriously dead on Phi Phi Island should be released next week.


    Despite confirming that the tissue samples had already been tested and results submitted to the Institute of Forensic Medicine at Police General Hospital, Dr Surasak Leelaudomlipi refused to elaborate because this is an ongoing case and the relatives of the deceased women wanted to keep to keep things confidential.

    Audrey and Noemi Belanger, both in their 20s, were found dead at the Palm Residence Hotel on June 15.

  20. #320
    Out there...
    StrontiumDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    BKK
    Posts
    40,030
    Phi Phi Deaths: No Autopsy Results Yet, Says Investigator - Phuket Wan


    Sisters Audrey and Noemi Belanger: no autopsy results yet

    Phi Phi Deaths: No Autopsy Results Yet, Says Investigator

    By Phuketwan Reporter
    Thursday, June 28, 2012

    PHUKET: No autopsy results for the Canadian sisters Audrey and Noemi Belanger had been received yet, the case investigating officer on the Thai holiday island of Phi Phi, Lieutenant Wisaw Senghar, said this evening.

    ''We've had no results back so we can't comment,'' he said. To follow international protocol, autopsy results would only be released after the family had been notified.

    The bodies of sisters Audrey, 20, and Noemi, 26, were found dead in a room at the Palm Residence Phi Phi from a mysterious cause on June 15.

    Autopsies were performed on the women at the Forensics Department of Bangkok's Ramathibodi Hospital on June 19 with a second round of autopsies taking place in Canada on June 22.

    Results from the first autopsies are due to be released next Tuesday by officials in Bangkok. No date has been set for release of the results of the second autopsies.

    The case has puzzled investigators so far but doctors say there is no point in speculation. The mysterious deaths mirror those of American Jill St Onge, 27, and Norwegian Julie Bergheim, 22, on Phi Phi in May, 2009.

    Ms St Onge was cremated but Ms Bergheim's body was returned to Norway where a second autopsy that extended over a period of months failed to produce a reason for her death.

    The Belanger sisters are due to be buried on Saturday.

  21. #321
    Thailand Expat

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Last Online
    02-07-2018 @ 04:00 PM
    Posts
    1,178
    I wonder if the Canadians might push a bit harder on the Leo del Pinto case, given the lack of answers in this case of other Canadian nationals.

    Justice for Leo

  22. #322
    I am in Jail

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Last Online
    28-03-2013 @ 09:01 AM
    Posts
    1,410
    Quote Originally Posted by StrontiumDog View Post
    Phi Phi Deaths: No Autopsy Results Yet, Says Investigator - Phuket Wan

    The mysterious deaths mirror those of American Jill St Onge, 27, and Norwegian Julie Bergheim, 22, on Phi Phi in May, 2009.
    No, they don’t "mirror" St Onge and Bergheim. The May 2009 victims, Jill St Onge and Julie Bergheim, had massive pulmonary edema and there was no report of diarrhea or bleeding gums and bruising (signs of hemorrhaging) as there was with the Belanger sisters recently.

    Pulmonary edema is a hallmark sign of organophosphate poisoning (and cyanide poisoning) and there were traces of oraganophosphate-related chemicals later found in their bodies, traces of which weren't found in the Chiang Mai victims. We shall soon know if they found traces in the Belanger sisters.

    And there were reports that cyanide was found in the stomach of one of the victims and both Norway women got sick AFTER they came home from drinking that night (in May 2009).
    Why did this info stay 'buried'? Maybe because the Thais later retracted this 'cyanide found in stomach' (but, then again, of course they would). Interesting that cyanide poisoning fits perfectly with their symptoms and cyanide by the gallon is available wherever fishermen use it to kill fish en-mass. Also used in pesticides, metal-strippers, and metal plating solutions. Click here to read a translation of the Swiss article as appeared on a Teakdoor thread about yet another person dying under strange circumstances (foaming at the mouth) around the time the May 2009 women died on Phi Phi!
    https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asia-news/61417-swede-dies-in-mysterious-circumstances.html
    the 'foaming at mouth' this poor guy had is also a sign of cyanide poisoning.

    Ryan Kells who was with his girlfriend Jill St Onge, noticed a ‘chemical smell’ in the room prior to her getting sick. He didn’t die, he claims, because he spent less time in the room than she did.

    Here are some of the likely poisons that can cause pulmonary edema. https://teakdoor.com/1294303-post6.html

    As you can see, many of them are freely available in Thailand, including cyanide (used to kill reef fish, among other things) that has a faint ‘bitter almond’ smell to it, as opposed to the ‘fishy’, ‘garlicky’ ‘rotten egg’ smell of many pesticides.

    (Karina Refseth from Norway was rooming with her friend, Julie Bergheim, next door to Jill and Ryan in May 2009).

    Finally, after not commenting publicly for months, Refseth spoke out: ''We reacted to the smell in the room when we arrived. The chemical smell, but thought no more about it,'' she is quoted as saying.

    It was three days later when Kells and St Onge checked in, and Kells also noted the chemical smell (
    staying in a different room than Refseth/Bergheim).

    ''It was a terrible experience, and this is very difficult, '' Refseth says. ''I think they should find out what made us sick, what led to Julie's death. ''It is very difficult not knowing, not having been given proper answers to what really happened.''

    Kells, the other survivor, is equally dissatisfied. ''My best friend died right in front of me on a vacation of a lifetime. I will not be told 'no one knows' and be ok with that. ''The thing that can be achieved is, FIND OUT WHAT KILLED JULIE AND JILL. That is all I care about, and I promise to find answers if no-one else will.''


    While it is true they smelled a ‘gas’ smell, Thailand has lots of weird smells. It was reported the victims may have eaten in the same restaurant (I am looking for citation).

    ''We are Ryan's parents, Beby and John Kells, living in Los Altos, California, USA. We flew to Thailand to bring Ryan and Jill home. … Jill was 27 and she had just agreed to marry Ryan who had proposed to her under a Bali sunset a couple of months before her death. …

    ''Imagine Ryan, denied access to a wheel cart by an employee of the Laleena, which he confiscated. Imagine him in the early hours of the morning running through the streets of Kho Phi Phi screaming for help with his dying fiance hardly breathing, having turned blue and her eyes bulging in trauma? Imagine him attempting CPR in the emergency room and his phone call home to tell his parents that Jill had died.

    ''Imagine his parents' despair and helplessness with 6000 miles between them and their son. As unimaginable as it might seem, Jill was placed in a power boat, secured by the island's ''chief'' at a market rate which Ryan was required to pay. It broke down in high waves on the trip to Phuket.

    ''Imagine Ryan cradling her head from being bumped as the boat encountered high waves. Imagine a transport truck waiting at the dock to take her body to a Phuket hospital. Nothing of these experiences reflects life or death in Norway or America. Since we, as parents, cannot bring Jill and Julie back, the least we can do is find out what likely act of man caused their deaths. We owe it to them to make sure that no other parents, no other best friends, no other couples planning marriage, suffer a similar fate”.


    And Julie’s mom intuited something was wrong and called her daughter:
    The latest of several articles in the Norwegian media this week is accompanied by a photograph of a woman, in deep snow and with more snowflakes falling, kneeling down beside a grave with a black marble headstone.

    The grave belongs to Julie Michelle Bergheim, and the woman in her mother, Ina Thoresen, 52. She places candles or flowers there every day.

    ''On that Sunday I had a strange feeling that something was wrong, so I called Julie on Phi Phi,'' Ms Thoresen told the Norwegian media.

    '''She said that both she and Karina were so bad that they could not bear to leave. I asked her to contact a doctor, but she said only that she was not able to talk more.

    ''Then she had to hang up,'' Ms Thoresen said.


    https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...ml#post1294303 (Mystery Phi Phi Deaths; Survivor Speaks, Finally)

    Ryan Kells: ''The only thing I can say is that there is no way it was a bacteria or food or drink poison. Jill had NO ALCOHOL that night. and food poisoning can not affect a person so rapidly. Nor can a bacteria. And a bacteria would be easily seen in an autopsy. So I would really like you not to say that those had any part of it.''

    From Norway, public prosecutor Sjak R. Haaheim was more sanguine: ''Sometimes in life, and in death, there is no possibility of answers,'' he concluded.


    St Onge's body was examined by Thai forensic pathologists in Bangkok, tissue and blood samples were taken, then she was cremated. Her ashes went back to the US with Kells.

    By contrast, Bergheim's body went back to Norway where family and officials in her home county, aghast at such an appalling catastrophe, contrived to have a second autopsy carried out by some of Norway's top forensic pathologists.

    The Thai autopsy report was condemned by St Onge's relatives for its brevity. And it must be said that the whole Thai investigation into the case proved to be singularly inadequate.


    ''One thing we do believe is that both Julie and Jill had elevated blood levels of cholinesterase inhibitor, a likely sign of pesticide gas poisoning, as suggested by a couple of research experts asked to comment on the blood results".

    (Note: they say ‘gas’ but it could have been by ingestion, too, especially since they may have eaten in the same restaurant and it takes much, much less to kill by ingestion than inhallation. And, P.S. I and other Teakdoor members were deliberately poisoned in restaurants after complaining about the food. MustavaMond, Kappa, WujouMao, ChristySweef, myself (twice, once by restaurant employee and another by a jealous Thai guy) and Rigger (who believes it was a jealous Thai guy who poisoned him).

    Interesting that in the same month (May 2009) Julie and Jill died in Phi Phi there were other cases of Phi Phi tourists dying after bouts of massive vomiting, as well as other unexplained tourist deaths:
    https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...-speaks-2.html (Mystery Phi Phi Deaths; Survivor Speaks, Finally)
    Last edited by guyinthailand; 29-06-2012 at 07:14 AM.

  23. #323
    I am in Jail

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Last Online
    28-03-2013 @ 09:01 AM
    Posts
    1,410
    Phi Phi Poisonings: Autopsy results on Canadian sisters ‘inconclusive’

    Posted by phuketnews on Jun 28, 2012 in phuketgazette

    PHUKET: Krabi Police today announced that the autopsies conducted by Thai authorities at the bodies of Canadian sisters Audrey and Noemi Belanger didn’t find any traces of medicine.

    The loss of discovery as to what caused the women’s deaths now forces police to follow other leads of their investigation, Krabi Provincial Police Deputy Commander Boontawee Toraksa said today.


    Audrey, 20, and Noemi, 26, were found dead of their
    hotel room on Phi Phi Island on June 15.

    Their bodies were sent to the Institute of Forensic Medicine on the Police General Hospital in Bangkok for tests before being released for repatriation to their hometown of Pohenegamook.


    “No [illicit] drugs were present in their systems and there have been no signs of what could have caused their deaths. Now police ought to watch for the effects from investigations by other related organizations,” Maj Gen Boontawee said.


    Among the opposite experts investigating the deaths is Dr Jakkarat Pittayawong-anon, a consultant from the Bureau of Epidemiology, Department of Disease Control.


    Dr Jakkarat arrived along with his team on Phi Phi Island on June 20 to gather evidence had to discern the precise reason behind the sisters’ deaths.


    However, he said that only after his team had compared their findings against the postmortem examination results would they submit a report back to the Krabi Provincial Office and Krabi Public Health Office.


    Maj Gen Boontawee today took the chance to defend the efforts by police of their investigation into the women’s deaths.


    “What the foreign media have said about Thai Police ignoring the case, seeking to hide the scoop and allowing a major witness to go away the rustic seriously isn’t true.


    “I like to explain to the general public that we’ve got already done our greatest at every step of the investigation, but we still haven’t begun to make your mind up the reason for the death,” he said.


    Maj Gen Boontawee said that police realized that, “the Portuguese friend of the 2 sisters who stayed on the same hotel and carried them into their room is an important witness who may have information which could reveal what caused their deaths.”


    However, he added, “By the time police reviewed the CCTV footage on June 16, it was too late to trace down the guy. He left the rustic on June 17 because his visa had expired.”


    Maj Gen Boontawee didn’t elaborate on what further steps police had taken so one can contact the fellow.


    According to a report by the
    Toronto Sun, Audrey and Noemi are to be buried this Saturday, June 30.

    The result of independent autopsies conducted in Montreal, of their home province of Quebec, haven’t begun to be announced.
    Last edited by guyinthailand; 29-06-2012 at 02:35 AM.

  24. #324
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Last Online
    31-08-2023 @ 11:38 PM
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    10,512
    Just what everyone wanted to here... Inconclusive. It is known that GHB cannot be detected in the body after a short period of time.

    Anyway the issues on Phi Phi island are well documented. Anyone who goes there, especially after this, has only themselves to blame if something goes wrong. Not Thai's, not Thai cops but the individuals themselves.

  25. #325
    I am in Jail

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Last Online
    28-03-2013 @ 09:01 AM
    Posts
    1,410
    Quote Originally Posted by socal View Post
    Just what everyone wanted to here...Inconclusive. It is known that GHB cannot be detected in the body after a short period of time.

    Anyway the issues on Phi Phi island are well documented. Anyone who goes there, especially after this, has only themselves to blame if something goes wrong. Not Thai's, not Thai cops but the individuals themselves.


    GHB is an interesting idea. GHB, a date rape drug, colorless and tasteless, can be slipped in a drink and, with alcohol especially, can cause altered mental states but does not usually cause pulmonary edema but can, especially with alcohol, lead to respiratory depression and death. These symptoms don’t match what Thai poisoning victims had (vomiting, diarrhea, pulmonary edema, myocarditis). GHB is also unlikely here because traces of pesticides and cyanide were found in some victims. Plus GHB can be detected in hair samples for weeks.

    But I wouldn’t be surprised if it has been used many times in Thailand as a date-rape drug and is very likely the drug used to rob tourists. Note the range of safety of the drug is very narrow. Note that 30mg/kg produces CNS depression & muscle twitching (myoclonus); 50m/kg produces unconsciousness; and 60mg/kg produces coma.

    which is probably why some of these robbed tourists are found in varying states of consciousness: some groggy/hung over/confused, and others in a coma; others dead because the bar girls/lady boys/bar-tenders have given varying doses of GHB.
    Last edited by guyinthailand; 29-06-2012 at 08:04 PM.

Page 13 of 29 FirstFirst ... 35678910111213141516171819202123 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •