If those "liberated" women don't vote for a party like that maybe they'll get stoned to death?:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Norton
Printable View
If those "liberated" women don't vote for a party like that maybe they'll get stoned to death?:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Norton
Well then if thats the case the next thing out of the inventory will be a MOAB.Quote:
Originally Posted by koman
Seriously, not matter what you explain to some of these folks; it will be the good guys killing the innocent. You know why? Because if the innocent say something about the bad guys they know they are gonna get killed.
The ability of the crusader coalition to drop bombs and fire missiles at "targets" has never been in doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mid
The ability to decide which "targets" to attack is the difficult one.
All countries have stockpiles of weapons which "used to threaten and kill innocent [insert name of country] civilians"
These types of statements by government ministers open up their own weapons stores as legitimate targets and confirm that the terrorist army is being supported by the crusader coalition militarily.
Is an "innocent civilian" really bothered if they are killed by an arrow from a bow or an atomic bomb, I doubt it. Are the terrorist armies weapons store being attacked in the same manner?
Illegal regime change, take the perpetrators to the tower now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PandaThing is that USA sanctions state sponsored terrorism against the population in countries that are useful allies such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Thailand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
Yea the assassination of Sae Daeng was murder as was the assassination of Osama Bin Laden. To stoop to such illegal acts makes such governments who carry out such acts no better than terrorists themselves.
You cant pick and choose in which countries its OK for the government to murder its own people lest you be seen as a total hypocrite.
We are at war with AQ. That makes the shooting of the AQ Commander legal, not murder. What proof do you have as to who shot Sae Daeng? Sure you have an opinion same as I do, but, no proof.
There you go making sense again :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ceburat
Libyan forces destroy Misrata fuel tanks: rebels | Reuters
Libyan forces destroy Misrata fuel tanks: rebels
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2011/05/914.jpg
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2011/05/915.jpg
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2011/05/916.jpg
By Lin Noueihed
TRIPOLI | Sun May 8, 2011 9:00am EDT
(Reuters) - Libyan government forces destroyed four fuel storage tanks and set several others ablaze in rebel-held Misrata, dealing a blow to the port city's ability to withstand a government siege, rebels said on Saturday.
The attack on the western city came as artillery rounds fired by forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi fell in Tunisia in an escalation of fighting near the border with rebels trying to end Gaddafi's rule of more than four decades.
Misrata, the last remaining city in the west under rebel control, has been under siege for more than two months and has witnessed some of the war's fiercest fighting.
Rebels gave varying accounts of the bombardment but said it hit fuel used for export as well as domestic consumption.
"Four (fuel) tanks were totally destroyed and a huge fire erupted which spread now to the other four. We cannot extinguish it because we do not have the right tools," rebel spokesman Ahmed Hassan told Reuters.
"Now the city will face a major problem. Those were the only sources of fuel for the city. These tanks could have kept the city for three months with enough fuel," he said by telephone.
Video of the incident posted on YouTube by Libyan students in Misrata showed firefighters turning water hoses on a raging fire in a vain attempt to extinguish it.
Government forces last month flew at least one helicopter reconnaissance mission over Misrata, according to rebels.
NATO coalition aircraft have been bombing Libyan government military targets and enforcing a no-fly zone under a U.N. resolution. Western and Arab countries this week agreed to provide rebels with millions of dollars in non-military aid to help them keep services and the economy running.
Rebels have long been demanding more heavy weapons to take on the Libyan leader's better-armed and trained forces.
The head of the rebel forces in eastern Libya retracted an assertion by a rebel spokesman that Italy had agreed to supply them with weapons to help in their fight to oust Gaddafi.
"We have not received any weapons, not from Italy nor from any other country," Abdel Fattah Younes told al Jazeera television. "Maybe one of the brothers failed to express himself properly ... we apologize to Italy on behalf of the brothers in the National Council."
A spokesman for the rebels' Transitional National Council had told a news conference in Benghazi earlier in the day that weapons would be provided to the insurgents soon.
In Rome, a Foreign Ministry spokesman said no such agreement had been reached.
Italy has backed the rebels, formally recognizing the transitional council as the only legitimate representatives of the country, but it is unlikely it would go further than other countries in the anti-Gaddafi coalition.
BORDER FIGHTING
Fighting has intensified in Libya's Western Mountains region as Gaddafi loyalists and rebels backed by NATO bombing reached stalemate on other fronts in the civil war.
Government forces surrounding rebel-held Zintan fired 300 rockets into the town on Saturday, rebel spokesman Abdulrahman al-Zintani said. He gave no details of casualties in Zintan, which is largely empty of civilians.
"NATO aircraft can be heard but there have been no air strikes," al-Zintani told Reuters.
The Tunisian town of Dehiba has been hit repeatedly by stray shells in recent weeks, and on Saturday Tunisia condemned the "extremely dangerous" shelling and said it would take all necessary measures to protect its sovereignty.
The Libyan government denied targeting Tunisian soil deliberately.
"We said this (shelling) was an error and we have apologized that this took place and have asked the military forces to ensure this doesn't happen again," Libyan Prime Minister Al-Baghdadi Ali al-Mahmoudi told a news conference in Tripoli.
The battle is over the Dehiba-Wazzin border crossing, whose control gives the rebels a road from the outside world into strongholds in the Western Mountains region. Gaddafi's forces control a far bigger crossing to the north.
On Saturday Dehiba's schools were evacuated and residents scurried for safety as nearly 100 mortars and missiles fell. The crackle of small arms fire and larger weapons could be heard about 4 km inside Libya, a Reuters witness on the border said.
"We are very afraid. The missiles are falling right around us, we don't know what to do," said Tunisian Mohammed Naguez, a resident of Dehiba. "Our children are afraid. The Tunisian authorities have to stop this."
Most Western Mountains residents belong to the Berber ethnic group and are distinct from other Libyans. They rose up two months ago and say towns like Zintan and Yafran, often bombarded by Gaddafi's forces, are short of food, water and medicine.
The civil war over Gaddafi's rule has split the oil-producing desert state into a government-held western area round the capital Tripoli and an eastern region held by ill-disciplined but dedicated rebel forces.
The revolt is the bloodiest yet against long-entrenched rulers across the Middle East and North Africa, which saw the overthrow of the veteran presidents of Tunisia and Egypt.
Shame on Italy, shame on France, shame on NATO, shame on the UN. They encouraged, built up hopes through diplomatic recognition, inspired the rebels and now as any fool (even me) could have predicted they are unwilling to commit to go full out to defeat Qaddafi, a man who is not going to roll over because of a few air strikes. Even the promised air strikes have all but ceased.Quote:
Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
Prevent the death of innocent civilians, my rosy red ass. This half hearted effort will ensure the death of far more than if nothing had been done.
absolutely,Quote:
Originally Posted by Norton
interestingly, there is now a media block on the current Libyan situation in France, not a word about it on National TV
I hope they will refer Sarko, Cameron and Berlusconi to the war crime tribunal, because they really created another war tragedy.
Personally, I don't buy this 'game changer' theory of democracy sweeping the mid-east.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norton
What's really changed? The Egyptian Army - the same one that's gotten rich through the corruption of backing Mubarak - is still there and is now running the show directly instead of through their civilian frontman.
Where's the revolutionary democracy in Tunisia? In Libya, it's just the "I hate Gaddafi" crowd fighting his forces - and losing. Even if they defeat Gaddafi, then what? Does anyone see a participatory, moderate democratic leader anywhere among the tribal leaders? Syria? Come on.
It's interesting how some posters (not necessary Norton) think this is real democracy sweeping across the arid deserts of north africa and the gulf, yet call thailand's movement just a thaksin game show.
They are conditioned from birth to think as they think. Very sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bold Rodney
No offense here, look who you are talking about. When was the last time you have seen them commit to anything?Quote:
Originally Posted by Norton
Gone too far now let Gaddafi get away with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norton
He is isolated militarily. Its just a matter of attrition. The west can keep this up indefinitely so long as there are rebels to oppose Gaddafi.
Gaddafi must go, and who in the west cares how many Libyans must die in the process. NATO will just keep grinding him down until he either runs out of bullets, does a runner, kills himself or is killed.
Any way you look at this, Gaddafi is finished. Its simply too big and its been going too long for NATO to retreat and capitulate to Gaddafi.
but it's going to be cahos and shit when he leaves,
so what will NATO do ? invade with troops ?
and that's the problem, we can't go back. We are stuck. All thanks to Sarko and friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by Panda
Lets have a show of hands here, poll time for this question please?Quote:
Originally Posted by Panda
Analysis - U.N. dilemma: To aid or not to aid Libya's rebels | Reuters
"(Reuters) - A stalemate on the battlefields of Libya and a political deadlock on the U.N. Security Council have left Western powers with a stark choice -- covertly aid the rebels or leave them in the lurch.
Analysts and U.N. diplomats warn that if the United States, Britain, France or their allies were to exploit loopholes in, or secretly circumvent, a sanctions regime they themselves engineered in February and March, it could prompt Russia or China to adopt a similar stance on the sanctions against Iran. Russia and China, both veto-wielding permanent members of the 15-nation Security Council, have become increasingly critical of the NATO-led operation to protect civilians in OPEC-member Libya, which they have suggested appears to be killing more civilians than it is intended to protect.
The Security Council's Libya sanctions committee could move to exempt the rebels from measures intended to punish Gaddafi's government, but one envoy said the "political atmospherics have changed." Russia and China, which reluctantly abstained on a vote to approve military action, have run out of patience and are unlikely to support any adjustments of the sanctions. "The problem for the West is that several key players on the council now feel that the authority they granted was abused and they're not inclined to help the West extricate itself," said David Bosco of American University in Washington.
U.N. diplomats told Reuters that Russia and China, which complain that NATO is going beyond its U.N. mandate to protect civilians and really wants "regime change" and Gaddafi's ouster, have made clear that they would block any attempt to aid the rebels by exempting them from the U.N. sanctions.
Asked what options the Western powers and their allies have to help the rebels, a council diplomat said on condition of anonymity: "Covert aid. That's really our only option now. Or hope that a political solution to the impasse emerges that will lead to Gaddafi's departure. That would change everything." But there are no signs that a political solution is in the works, and Gaddafi and his sons are refusing to step down. There have already been suggestions that Italy and others have reached deals to arm the rebels on the pretext of helping the rebels protect civilians, which some Western envoys say would be justified under a loophole in the U.N. sanctions.
A Libyan rebel spokesman spoke about such a deal last week, but Italy denied it. The leader of the Libyan rebel forces later retracted that statement and suggested the spokesman had not expressed himself properly.
HOPES FOR QUICK REBEL VICTORY DASHED
Some Western diplomats argue that covertly flouting the U.N. sanctions regime would set a bad precedent that could come back to haunt Western powers as they demand stricter Chinese and Russian compliance with sanctions on Iran and North Korea. "Our behaviour should be exemplary as we think about creating precedents for the future, even if it's more difficult for the rebels in the short term," a diplomat told Reuters.
In theory, there is also the possibility of NATO bypassing the Security Council and deploying ground troops to help the rebels. Russia has repeatedly warned NATO against such moves, and U.N. envoys say it could be domestic political suicide for the leaders of France, Britain or the United States to send in ground troops. When the Security Council imposed sanctions against Gaddafi, his family and inner circle in February and military intervention to protect civilians in March, U.N. diplomats had hoped the rebels would swiftly topple the Libyan leader. But nearly two months after NATO-led airstrikes on Gaddafi's forces began, Western military might has failed to tip the balance in favour of the rag-tag rebel troops. The rebels are entrenched in the east of the country, while Gaddafi controls the west, leading to a de facto partition of Libya. "We were hoping this thing would be over in two weeks," a Security Council diplomat said about the March 17 vote that authorized the use of "all necessary measures" -- diplomatic code for military force -- to protect civilians in Libya. "The sanctions were not intended for a divided Libya," the diplomat told Reuters on condition of anonymity.
Another diplomat said that the Western powers had been convinced the Libya conflict could resolve itself quickly as happened in Egypt and Tunisia, where the leaders of both countries stepped down in the face of massive pressure from protesters. Unlike Egypt and Tunisia, there was no swift ouster of Gaddafi. The Libyan conflict is now a full-blown civil war. The United States, Britain, France and their allies are now stuck with an arms embargo and sanctions against Libya's National Oil Corporation that are making it difficult for the rebels to get weapons and funds. Traders say that market participants are reluctant to touch any Libyan oil these days.
A member of the Libyan rebels' oil and gas support group told Reuters that they are receiving cash for oil shipped from the rebel-held east via a Qatari trust fund. But the cash-strapped rebels continue to seek sustainable funding mechanisms given that there is little hope of the Security Council adjusting its sanctions regime anytime soon."
No different to the majority of the electorate in any western democracy. It's sad but not especially unusual.Quote:
Originally Posted by nostromoThey are conditioned from birth to think as they think. Very sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bold Rodney
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhOh
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhOh
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhOh
Mission creep? Looks like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OhOh
Western women been liberated, I know because so many of them have told me they are!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan
As far as conditioning is concerned of course it happens not least because of normal human reaction to media, news, films, documentaries, politics, etc. etc. it's inevitable.
But freedom of speech allows us to decide what we chooes to believe, how and who we vote for, unfortunaley ignorance, the lack of education and propaganda denies that option to many people in Africa, Middle East and Asia.
More like Italian creeps, never miss a chance to make a buck do they? :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Norton
So at what point does Libya turn into some sort of post-Cold War proxy war? It isn't part of the War on Terra, or at least not on the factions funded and supplied by the Saudis and the PakISI. In some ways war against Ghaddafi is safer to attack because the Islamic extremists hate him. What states are helping Ghaddafi now? Somebody must be doing business with him. It is clear the Russians are not happy with what NATO is doing. What are the Chinese up to? They seem to view Africa as up for grabs.
I did see a while ago a message from Ghaddafi essentially saying "Fuck you westerners. From now on the oil goes East." Interestingly, though at a bit of a tangent, I did see some banners (I say some but I think it was only one) from anti-Ghaddafi forces written in Chinese, and there were also a few seen in Egypt.
The northern border of Libya, the Mediterranean sea, is blockaded by the "crusader coalition" armada.
The east, west and southern boarders are wide open. Some of them lead directly to countries which China already has a presence with "forgiving" governments.
I always smile when the graffiti, aimed at the locals and shown on television deploring one thing or another in another country, is written in English.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan
It's incredible that the Libyans are educated enough to be able to write slogans in Chinese. That's what I call a country which knows the way the wind is blowing.
Found the link for the sign at Language Log
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2011/05/1179.jpg
Apparently it says - not very excitingly - Muammar Ghaddafi is a liar.
And from Egypt:
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2011/05/1180.jpg
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2011/05/1181.jpg