Thread: Who owes who?

I watched "Britain's trillion pound horror story" last night, in a nutshell they appear to be up shit creek, without a ...
Being a dumb roughneck, there is one thing I don't understand that some kind member may be able to explain?
Britain is in debt, the USA, Greece, Ireland etc etc are all in debt, the banks are all bankrupt, so who is waiting for all this money to be repaid to them?
Somebody has some pretty deep pockets if they can loan out Trillions!

in simple terms we are all spending money we don't have , aka governments are printing and spending on the faith that we will all keep playing the game .

all i can say is "they" will get f*ckall from me. ive paid enough into the system over the the years and "they" have pissed it up the wall'
at least i think thats were its gone

Originally Posted by Airportwo

Somebody has some pretty deep pockets if they can loan out Trillions!

China , Japan and Germany are the countries with the richest foreign currencies reserves and international investment position.

Originally Posted by Airportwo

I watched "Britain's trillion pound horror story" last night, in a nutshell they appear to be up shit creek, without a ...
Being a dumb roughneck, there is one thing I don't understand that some kind member may be able to explain?
Britain is in debt, the USA, Greece, Ireland etc etc are all in debt, the banks are all bankrupt, so who is waiting for all this money to be repaid to them?
Somebody has some pretty deep pockets if they can loan out Trillions!

this is all part of the big plan to take control by T.P.T.B. who have been working towards this for the last two hundread yrs .. since 1823 the rothschild family has been the guardian of the vatican treasury.. / the rothschild banked rolled- both sides /world war 1 and world war 11 / how much profit did they make from this with the vatican .. then you have the BILDERBERG group / the most powerful people on the planet who tells governments what to do and how to do it/ .all your rights are being slowly taken away from you just look at whats happening in the E.U.and the U.S.A... if i fked up a job id be sacked and yet the bankers/wankers/ are still calling the shots / i think MR ORWELL got it spot on / its getting to the stage where if T.P.T.B. shout shit and you dont jump your out /fked/

About 80% of the UK's debt is owned by individuals and institutions within the UK such as pension funds and insurance companies.

Makes it relatively easy for the government to inflate it's way out of debt. Of course it will bankrupt a few pensioners.

Originally Posted by Mid

in simple terms we are all spending money we don't have , aka governments are printing and spending on the faith that we will all keep playing the game .

Indeed, Mid. A diplomatic way of saying that there isn't any wealth {that reflects the real values}. Sadly, such wealth is made-up and invisible.

^ OP ^

It's called pass the debt parcel. As long as the packages keep moving the system can endure, though with compounded negative implications which will eventually surface with a vengeance but that's ok as long as it's in some future political lifetime.

When the parcels stop flowing or a participant gets cocky and starts dropping a few, everyone is compromised. This is why bit players like PIIGS, even when they die, need to be propped up just like El Cid, so that they can still pretend to be alive and everyone sleeps soundly at night.

List of countries by foreign exchange reserves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Britains debt problems are chronic like the US, but can be unwound over time.
Looking at some other countries, such as Ireland and Portugal, I think that's doubtful.

As the two foremost Anglo democracies, the conduct of the US & UK government over the last decade could be used as an argument against the whole anglo democratic model- which might be described as the right wing end of social democracy.

Basically, you have had a massive wealth transfer to the already rich, whilst the rest of society has trod water, or even gone backwards. Simultaneously, you have seen a tremendous rise in national indebtedness, owed to foreigners- in particular the Chinese.

So our governments have gone into debt to make the rich richer by slashing taxes, and borrowed the shortfall overseas- rather than raising it domestically. That does not say a lot for our system of governance, or who it benefits.

Clear as mud now - thanks. I have to go with the conspiracy theory, nothing else makes sense!
Appears soon as people start talking trillions it becomes a pure guessing game, one "fact" bought up in the documentary was that British debt was 4.8 trillion, if all the houses and flats in Britain were sold, it would raise 3.7 trillion? wonder who came up with that?

Now that we've become unhealthily comfortable discussing trillions in relation to debt, anyone care to guess how long before the first eyebrows are raised at a quadrillion?

not in our lifetime

exponential leaps happen slowly


Quadrillion may mean either of the two numbers (see long and short scales for more detail):

• 1,000,000,000,000,000 (one thousand million million; 1015; SI prefix peta-) - for all short scale countries - increasingly common meaning in English language usage
• 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (one million million million million; 1024; SI prefix: yotta-) - for all long scale countries - increasingly rare meaning in English language usage

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Quadrillion

Originally Posted by Mid

not in our lifetime

exponential leaps happen slowly

Quite the opposite really.

Depends on the doubling time as to how fast a number grows. Things can start out small and get out of hand to astronomical numbers really quickly once they get going.

Exponential growth

Originally Posted by Panda

Quite the opposite really.

stick to my answer , there are a lot of trillions in a Quadrillion far more than there are millions in a billion or even billions in a trillion .

debt is good, do not worry

Originally Posted by Mid

Originally Posted by Panda

Quite the opposite really.

stick to my answer , there are a lot of trillions in a Quadrillion far more than there are millions in a billion or even billions in a trillion .

Exponential expansion of numbers soon gets into astronomical figures from a small starting number. The fact that there are a lot of trillions in a Quadrillion is of no relevance to exponential growth. It is the doubling time that is the critical factor as to how fast the numbers accelerate at an ever increasing rate.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

debt is good, do not worry

Well, good till people stop lending.
Paying off a credit card with another credit card has been tried before. Doesnt work I am sorry to tell Mr Obama and Bernanke. But I am sure they will figure it out on their own eventually.

Originally Posted by Panda

Originally Posted by Mid

not in our lifetime

exponential leaps happen slowly

Quite the opposite really.

Depends on the doubling time as to how fast a number grows. Things can start out small and get out of hand to astronomical numbers really quickly once they get going.

Exponential growth

I recall as a kid trying to get my head around the concept of a billion pounds, and a few years later it's tossed around as petty cash.

Originally Posted by Panda

Originally Posted by Butterfly

debt is good, do not worry

Well, good till people stop lending.
Paying off a credit card with another credit card has been tried before. Doesnt work I am sorry to tell Mr Obama and Bernanke. But I am sure they will figure it out on their own eventually.

Ah, but it can work for a Presidential term with enough credit cards.

A quadrillion is a thousand trillion. To get from a trillion to a quadrillion, you only have to double it 10 times.

Going by "the rule of 70" which is a rough calculation of compound interest or inflation, -- 70% currency inflation would turn each $trillion into a $quadrillion in just 10 years; 30% inflation would do it in 25 years, and 10% inflation would do it in 70 years. With hyperinflation, which is a real threat to the people of USA, their $trillions of debt could easily turn into $quadrillions in a short time as the rate of US debt accumulation is also expanding exponentially.

US treasury debt has doubled in just the past 6 years and its rising faster and faster all the time, exponentially in fact.

"Historical Debt Outstanding - Annual 2000 - 2010

Includes legal tender notes, gold and silver certificates, etc.
The first fiscal year for the U.S. Government started Jan. 1, 1789. Congress changed the beginning of the fiscal year from Jan. 1 to Jul. 1 in 1842, and finally from Jul. 1 to Oct. 1 in 1977 where it remains today.
To find more historical information, visit The Public Debt Historical Information archives.
Date Dollar Amount09/30/201013,561,623,030,891.7909/30/200911,909,829,003,511.7509/30/200810,024,724,896,912.4909/30/20079,007,653,372,262.4809/30/20068,506,973,899,215.2309/30/2005 7,932,709,661,723.5009/30/2004 7,379,052,696,330.3209/30/2003 6,783,231,062,743.6209/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.1609/30/2001 5,807,463,412,200.0609/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86"


This should have reduced the value of the $US by about 8 or 9% over the past 6 years. And guess what? Thats exactly whats been happening!
US Dollar Index

So the logical conclusion is that if the USA continues on this current course of money printing they are going to accelerate the $US depreciation exponentially and lead the country into hyperinflation as many economic commentators have predicted. Zimbabwe style prices may not be unrealistic. $10,000 for a loaf of bread today and $100,000 tomorrow?

I personally dont think its going to go that far though. The Fed will put the brakes on the printing presses before it gets to that because most of that new money will be invested and lent overseas in more productive nations with higher returns anyway, -- exactly as is happening with QE2. Once the Fed devalues the $US to a point that make US exports competitive again, (probably 20 or 30% below current levels), I believe the free money for the banks will stop. Thats going to mean an even bigger credit squeeze however for US entrepreneurs.
Industry will slow even more. Inflation at 10, 15, maybe 20% for basic items like food. A massive crash in housing prices for sure, -- and there goes the banks too as their equity on the books dips and no more gifts of cash from the Fed. Unemployment to at least double from the current 10%.

But I do believe USA will bounce back in time once its citizens have been forced to live within their means, -- all be it at a considerably much lower standard of living. It might take them 10 years to rebuild their manufacturing industries, but they will get there because they have a large pool of cheap labour with poor working conditions and social benefits.

Ultimately, it will be the working class Americans who will end up paying for the excesses of the financial elite who hold the government to ransom.

Sounds fair using %s as a constant, and as you say that's unlikely to happen. In real numbers the difference between a billion and a trillion is a paltry 999bn against the 999tn from a trillion to a quadrillion. I guess in the lifetime of our grandkids global debt could reach a quadrillion.