Division of Indian Sub Continent

The sincere leaders in the history of Pakistan is Mohammad Ali Jinnah and Zulfiqar Ali bhutto.Mohammad Ali jinnah dies and bhutto was hanged by the Zia's government and Zia was an American Puppet so how can a country develop if it's leaders are executed??

And it was that fokwit Zia who created the Taliban (Mujahedeens at that time) and it was the fokwit Zia who imposed HUDOODH ordinance which imposes Sharia law and it was the fokwit Zia who was the one who made all these extreamist groups.Now who gave Zia power I think everyone knows.

The Bristish did teach India and Pakistan how to play cricket but that is not civilising.

The british used to say DIVIDE AND RULE and they really divided the sub-continent and they are still divided and killing each other and in a way they are still ruling.

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Originally Posted by surasak

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Originally Posted by friscofrankie

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Originally Posted by Cobby34

I remember rightly the native indians of North America had a bit of a rough deal.

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So did the natives that were wiped out before white man ever arrived. So did neanderthal man when the homo apeins took over; and so on, and so on. Fuckin lookin to BLAME SOMEBODY is a weak-assed sissy way out. What we have now; is here and now! Fuckin' deal with it.
The Franks, the Saxons, Celts, Moors, vandals, catholics, ad nauseum; we could lay balme on motherfuckers back to kingdom-come. The responsibbility is in the hand of those living today. The blame? What the fuck has any of that got to do with life today?
Fuckin useless lookin for a scapegoat. A culture or country to blame.
Fuckin human race; disgusting. Looking for someone to blame; never wanting' to take responsibility.

Sometimes I just get sick of the whole lot.

Blame and fault is a waste of time

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Not always, when poor political decisions leave things in a mess then it helps to associate blame so that such decisions (partitioning of someone else's land into separate pieces to assure a homogeneous culture in each) can be avoided in the future if the decision of the past lead to current problems (Israel/Palestine and India/Pakistan).

The treatment of the Native Americans isn't in the same boat since a foreign force came, conquered, and some group(s) of people lost. That's a natural fact of life.

But who partitioned the Indian-subcontinent? Britain. Are the British still there? No, they left it a total mess because several hundred years of British rule destroyed the traditions and culture that was there (intentionally or not, that's a different argument). Same thing with the Middle East. Someone else divided the land and gave it to the wrong groups of people.

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THANK GOD !
I thought it was us germans who are to blame AGAIN. :rolleyes:

>The Bristish did teach India and Pakistan how to play cricket but that is not civilising.<

And I think Polo was an invented by the Islamic Empire.

Ohhhh..... here we have this word EMPIRE again. Did they treat their people any different then the Brits.

I think FF said it right. Blaming each other for the past history is useless.
Where do we draw the line? It seems to me that the West has achieved this (forgive & forget)a little bit better.

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It seems to me that the West has achieved this (forgive & forget)a little bit better.

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That's a wide sweep of the brush, Herr Herman.

What has "the West" to forgive & forget regarding India or other former colonies? "The West" is the one who profited the most for centuries from this, and I don't think the British population had been terrorised by Indian military, or what is there to forgive?

If you are talking about forgiving within "the West", then I agree, Europe has grown together and the nations are emphazising what they have in common, but then again, Christianity is the strongest religion in all these states.

If you pay attention to religious and ethnic tensions within the European nations, you'll find a lot less of "forgiving" and accepting.

Your comments here demonstrate this quite well...

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Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

the Islamic Empire.

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Firt of all there is no such thing as Islamic Empire.Iam not blaming the british Empire for the fok ups in India and Pakistan.They didn'yt divide it properly other wise India wouldn't have occupied kashmir and there would be no line of control today.

There is no Islam in division of the sub-continent.If muslims were fuck ups they would have slaughterd the hindus under their rule.the british empire fucked up and divided the sub-continent in a way that both the countries would be fighting forever thats where the DIVIDE AND RULE policy comes in.

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Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

the West has achieved this (forgive & forget)a little bit better.

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Okay so the West should forgive Osama and forget 9/11 and 7/7 bombings cos it happened and there is no point in weeping what happened.

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Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

THANK GOD !
I thought it was us germans who are to blame AGAIN. :rolleyes:

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Our German friends were too late to make it to the Colony Partei ;)

^
That's right, the cake was already divided. Gemany tried to take Europe instead - mistake!

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Originally Posted by stroller

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It seems to me that the West has achieved this (forgive & forget)a little bit better.

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That's a wide sweep of the brush, Herr Herman.

What has "the West" to forgive & forget regarding India or other former colonies? "The West" is the one who profited the most for centuries from this, and I don't think the British population had been terrorised by Indian military, or what is there to forgive?

If you are talking about forgiving within "the West", then I agree, Europe has grown together and the nations are emphazising what they have in common, but then again, Christianity is the strongest religion in all these states.

If you pay attention to religious and ethnic tensions within the European nations, you'll find a lot less of "forgiving" and accepting.

Your comments here demonstrate this quite well...

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Oh c'mon Stroller

What is there for us to forgive and forget?
Did the Africans not invade Europe/Spain etc.
Did Dschinghis Khan not invade Europe?
So it was the European turn to do what every MAN has done before in history. Why do you think Man flies to the moon (the U.S. flag is there)? To look for the Good Humor Man?
What about the Thais? Don't they have plenty of reason to cry about in their history?
Shouldn't the Jews drop an A-bomb on Germany for our excellent behaviour?

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Originally Posted by Mhz

There is no Islam in division of the sub-continent.If muslims were fuck ups they would have slaughterd the hindus under their rule.the british empire fucked up and divided the sub-continent in a way that both the countries would be fighting forever thats where the DIVIDE AND RULE policy comes in.

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Mhz has a very valid point.

Whether the British intentionally wanted a 'divide and rule/conquer' situation, I don't know. (Perhaps Mhz and Macha do know, as they know more about this history than me.)

But Kashmir was drawn up. It's a problem now, and likely will continue to be for many generations.

Divide and Rule/Conquer has been used all over the world, from Stalin in Nagorno-Karaback, British in Iraq, most of the Middle East. Ethnic, religious, racials, political groups that are opposed to one another are placed into the same nation-state.

I'd like to research any theories about this.

Not sure what you mean to say, Herman the German.
"The Africans" is a bit to broad for me. Africa is a continent, and as such hasn't invaded anyone. For most of Africa the reverse is true, a number of European nations invaded almost all parts of Africa.

Do you feel the need to "forgive" Dschingis Khan? Has he in any tangible way influenced your life or Germany as it is now? I take more of an issue with the bombing of Dresden, since people of my father's generation who I personally know where affected by it.

You have avoided to address the central issue in this topic - the division of former colonial India. I'd say there still is resentment in both India and Pakistan towards the former colonial power. While I do not accept this as an excuse for today's problems, colonial history has undoubtedly contributed much to shape the present situation. It's only a generation past, these things do take time.

By the same token, I completely understand sentiments of the older generation of Jews towards Germany. But this is no excuse for present day Israeli politics.

>Firt of all there is no such thing as Islamic Empire.<

call it Conquest or Empire Muslim conquests - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I think you know what I mean.


>Okay so the West should forgive Osama and forget 9/11 and 7/7 bombings cos it happened and there is no point in weeping what happened.<

Well, that's easy enough. If this would mean "PEACE" , I think it will be no problem.
But c'mon please be honest...... I'am sure your list of "Forgive & Forget" does'nt end here.

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Originally Posted by Milkman

Mhz has a very valid point. Whether the British intentionally wanted a 'divide and rule/conquer' situation, I don't know. (Perhaps Mhz and Macha do know, as they know more about this history than me.)

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We didn't divide and conquer at all.

India was a load of Kingdoms and Britian united the country for the first time in it's history. It was the locals, especially the muslims who wanted it divided again, but weren't prepared to wait a while and have it done properly.

With regard to India being a fuck-up, I will concede that they are moving on niecely at the moment after 50 odd years of being in a state of Commie chaos.

^^^
It wasn't so much "Commie chaos" that held them back, it was Ghandi's idea of self-sufficiency. Only when India embraced the world economy in the early ninties, did it forge ehead. Previously, it was an economic back-water.

India was in "commie chaos"?

That's news to me. It was economically isolationist until the 90s, and it has an influential communist party.

India is a federal republic with an elected parliament, mate.

When Britain left, the Indians turned to Russia.

Commie chaos will do for me.

I read someone saying that Brits civilized the Indian sub continent. Bolloux! They colonized the Indian sub continent and the general masses were used as servents. They were even exported to Britian for hard labour.

Brits only taught Pakis n Indians how to play cricket. Perhaps they were too bored so they decided to teach them. Now if you see the current situation you'll find out that most of the time Pakis n Indians beat the Brits in cricket.

Think ..... where would the Pakis n Indians be, if the Brits really civilized them at that time? :)

Now what's happening today in the south Asia's cos of the wrong division. Pakistan n India fought three wars on the disputed region and a few years back, April 2002, they came to the brink of war. There were a million armed personnel on both sides. WHY? The wrong division! If it all started in a good way, there would be no focking chaos in that part of the world today.

Any person with a little common sense will tell you that the Brit division doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Macha

Now what's happening today in the south Asia's cos of the wrong division.

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Originally Posted by Macha

If it all started in a good way, there would be no focking chaos in that part of the world today.

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Originally Posted by Macha

Any person with a little common sense will tell you that the Brit division doesn't make sense.

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You seem to have overlooked the fact that the muslims wouldn't wait for the partition to be decided properly.

Ah so you mean Muslims forced Brits to rush? :)

It was probably more of a case of "we're going anyway, if you're too impatient, it isn't going to be our mess to clear up".

So, I guess we should've insisted we do it properly and told your lot to fek off and wait a wee while longer.

Nah the Brits didn't leave at once. They left over a period of time so this ain't a good excuse IMHO. :)

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Originally Posted by Mhz

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Originally Posted by endure

Let's assume that the Brits are totally and completely responsible for fcuking the division up.

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Yes they totally are.They are responsible for every inch of the land they divided and they are responsible for every Indian,Pakistani and kashmiri killed cos of that division for the last 50 or 60 years.Actually the Bahadur Shah Zafar (the ruler at that time) didn't invite the brits to colonize the sub-continent they came in for trade.

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You missed a bit out:
"Now we've done that has it helped India & Pakistan? Not at all. It's their problem and they have to sort it out themselves."

Or to paraphrase: 'Whining about things that happened 150 years ago is stupid, pointless and solves no problems but if it makes you feel better, have at it. The problems will still be there when you've finished whining."

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Originally Posted by Macha

Brits only taught Pakis n Indians how to play cricket.

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Where did mahatma Ghandi get his law degree.....

Where did Nehru study?

Just to name two well-known Indians......

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Originally Posted by friscofrankie

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Originally Posted by Cobby34

I remember rightly the native indians of North America had a bit of a rough deal.

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So did the natives that were wiped out before white man ever arrived. So did neanderthal man when the homo apeins took over; and so on, and so on. Fuckin lookin to BLAME SOMEBODY is a weak-assed sissy way out. What we have now; is here and now! Fuckin' deal with it.
The Franks, the Saxons, Celts, Moors, vandals, catholics, ad nauseum; we could lay balme on motherfuckers back to kingdom-come. The responsibbility is in the hand of those living today. The blame? What the fuck has any of that got to do with life today?
Fuckin useless lookin for a scapegoat. A culture or country to blame.
Fuckin human race; disgusting. Looking for someone to blame; never wanting' to take responsibility.

Sometimes I just get sick of the whole lot.

Blame and fault is a waste of time

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Who pissed on your bonfire.Fuck me,talk about overeacting,If you read my post you could see that I wasn't blaming anybody.So that was a great start,you've never met me but instantly you are communicating to in a aggresive manner & the funny thing is your ranting on about the darkside of human nature,hippocrite springs to mind,you want to practice what you preach.

Well, they've had 59 years to sort their borders out since we left and they are still whining about how we didn't do it right.

How much longer do you need?

The problems in Pakistan were numerous: separation of the nation into two parts, the fact that the government structure of Pakistan was non-existent upon independence, a stucture of government and civil service that was Western in nature but not Islamic in principle, civil war, the war in Afghanistan which drove millions of refugees into Pakistan from the Soviet invasion, the fact that the government has gone through many major changes, and, the dispute over Kashmir. When India was partitioned only about 10% of all major civil servants were Muslim and none were that were of the secretary level or higher. So, at the onset, there was no government in Pakistan to help get things going. The UK carved out a section of India and made it the 'homeland' for Muslims. Sort of what the UK did in the Middle East. Bloody hell, let's carve it up and let them sort it out!

It's kind of hard to build a modern nation in less than 50 years. Israel has had hundreds of billions of dollars in direct and indrect aid and still doesn't have permanent borders. I would argue that it took almost 150 years for the U.S. to be a modern power. Even after 100 years of independence the U.S. still couldn't fight a major war without outside help. What makes anyone think a small country with a weak economy and a non-existent civil service is going to do it sooner?