Thread: Israel Bombs Gaza

The depth of the evil on display here is difficult to comprehend

Check out Power Line - The Conflict's Root Cause

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

The depth of the evil on display here is difficult to comprehend

Check out Power Line - The Conflict's Root Cause

Oppression breeds hate. Hate breeds radicals.
And so the cycle continues. No surprise really.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

The depth of the evil on display here is difficult to comprehend

Agreed -- this isn't the 'opression' breeding these young radicals, it's grown, adults brainwashing these children into thinking being a martyr is a noble cause -- this is easier with children, as the concept of 'death', and 'maiming' do not apply to them, and aren't as well processed as by adults... Typical terror methods.

Originally Posted by sabang

A missile striking a Mosque with over 200 people in it?
That does not conform to the IDF terms of engagement displayed thus far- I can only hope, or presume, that it was a mistakeA missile striking a Mosque with over 200 people in it?
That does not conform to the IDF terms of engagement displayed thus far- I can only hope, or presume, that it was a mistake

Conveniently left out, probably, that the mosque was used to store weapons and rockets...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/wo...ideast.html?em

"The air force has struck several mosques in the past week, with the military saying they served as Hamas bases and weapons stores."

Little Green Footballs - Video: IAF Bombs Another Mosque Full of Bombs



There is also another factor to consider the differences in how Israel is trying to minimize civilian casualties (again, conveniently brushed under the tables by Panda and sabang) - they actively warn the civilians occupying intended targets.

The Associated Press: Israeli ground forces enter Gaza in escalation

Resident Abed al-Ghoul said the Israeli army called by phone to tell them to leave the house within 15 minutes.

2nd Hamas Leader Killed in Israeli Air Strike - AOL News Canada

Leaflets warn Palestinians to leave

The Israeli army has dropped thousands of leaflets over Gaza warning people to leave their homes before targeted bombing raids.

It is clear that the Israel armed forces are targeting Hamas installations, infrastructure, and personel, while trying to minimize civilian casualties as best as they can -- their actions bear this out.

Likewise, the wanton firing of Hamas rockets into civilian occupied locations indicates that Hamas is deliberately targeting civilians - their actions bear this out.

"But first and foremost, Terrorism is for us a part of the political battle being conducted under the present circumstances, and it has a great part to play: speaking in a clear voice to the whole world, as well as to our wretched brethren outside this land, it proclaims our war against the occupier. We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all."

I suppose, when you hear blood curdling rhetoric like this, you can justify almost anything in retaliation. But does that make it right?

Believe what you like Duck. Fact is that heavy handed oppression breeds radicals who are not afraid to resort to terrorism and martyrdom because they have nothing left to loose.

The creation of Israel was a big mistake by the then world powers, but fact is that its here to stay now. And there will always be Palestinians who resent being tossed off their land that they inherited over the centuries. That's something that Israel and the world has to deal with now. But Israels policy of brutal military force and collective punishment is not the way to heal old wounds. Rather it simply compounds the problem by creating more hatred and radicals.

The cycle of violence will continue long after this current incursion is finished.
In fact, I would guess that rather than breaking the Palestinian spirit, this latest assault on Gaza will create a new generation of even more radical terrorists and martyrs willing to give their lives to harm Israel on mutual terms.

Gaza is an area with one of the densest populations of refugees on earth and its being attacked by one of the most technologically advanced military forces on the planet. The UN wants to call a halt to this madness but UN resolutions to rein in Israels use of excessive force and human rights abuses are continually thwarted by the USA using its power of veto.

The balance of world power shifts over time and in the coming decades Israel may not always have big brother to protect and fund its excesses. Perhaps then the Israelis will want peace.

Originally Posted by spiff

Problem is, Israel doesn't give a fig about world opinion, never has done.

They dont have to while big brother is funding and protecting them.

Originally Posted by Panda

Believe what you like Duck.

There's nothing to 'believe' there, these are facts. Do you dispute them?

Originally Posted by Panda

Believe what you like Duck. Fact is that heavy handed oppression breeds radicals who are not afraid to resort to terrorism and martyrdom because they have nothing left to loose.

Putting your rhethoric aside for a second, what do you suggest the Israelis do, then?

Whatever restrictive and restrained approach was tried in the past, did not work -- in fact, rocket attacks from Hamas have only increased during any ceasefire or truce.

Whenever Israel has made overtures of peace, or pulled back military presence or settlers, Palestinians have sent in suicide bombers as a 'Thank You'.

When Israel built a wall to protect its borders and keep suicide bombers out (which has worked so far), the palestinian side has cried foul, demanding the right to cross into Israeli territory freely (I wonder why), and one of the current demands by Hamas leaders is for Israel to open all the borders again - undoubtedly so they can renew and continue their suicide bomber incursions.

Hamas and other organizations have repeatedly stated that their only, uncompromising goal, is the total destruction of the State of Israel.

How do you deal with such an opponent, than by crushing them completely - it seems to be the only language they understand, and the only method that would work -- by their own demonstrations.

Crush your Enemy Totally

All great leaders since Moses have known that a feared enemy must be crushed completely. (Sometimes they have learned this the hard way.) If one ember is left alight, no matter how dimly it smolders, a fire will eventually break out. More is lost through stopping halfway than through total annihilation: The enemy will recover, and will seek revenge. Crush him, not only in body but in spirit. --Robert Greene (The 48 Laws of Power)

Originally Posted by Butterfly

^ yeah, we should nuke Israel, unless Iran beat us to it

of course, all women and children should be settled in the US first, that's the civil thing to do

But the children are the next generation of foking Zionists. Do the lot in.

Originally Posted by chitown

The Mussies are out to take over the world. I would rather see peace, but won't side with those barbarians for nothing.

I have always fancied this the long-historied American role: out to take over the world. Creton....

Originally Posted by Panda

So long as USA keeps protecting Israel in the UN with its power of veto, and so long as USA keeps funding and arming Israel, we can expect to see this sort of thing going on for many decades to come.

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza



"US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice accused Hamas of having triggered the new bout of violence.



"The United States is deeply concerned about the escalating violence in Gaza," she said in a statement.
"We strongly condemn the repeated rocket and mortar attacks against Israel and hold Hamas responsible for breaking the ceasefire and for the renewal of violence there. The ceasefire must be restored immediately and fully respected."
UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon also urged an immediate halt to the violence, condemning what he called Israel's "excessive use of force leading to the killing and injuring of civilians" and "the ongoing rocket attacks by Palestinian militants".

Note Rices lack of compassion for the civilian casualties.

Wonder how it would be if the U.S. and Britain pulled the plug? Israel would be a shell if it weren't for the complete and benevelent maintenance by their 'Mommys'.

Originally Posted by Jools

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Israelis, like Americans, terrorizing and killing civilians

this is an obvious abuse of the Geneva Convention and other International charters

War Crime tribunal should start prosecuting those Israeli Nazi

The only bad thing about this operation is that, so far, they have only killed a paltry 200 of these sub-human scum. Israel is showing the world how to deal with a cancer that is eating civilization from the inside out. Bravo, chaps.

Only because the U.S. allows it.

Originally Posted by Jools

Originally Posted by kingwilly

if you were saying this with a sacarsm smilie, it would be great a post, unfortunately i think you really mean it.

Most assuredly I DO mean it. Hamas represents a relatively pure form of anti-semitism. Too many died before. Never again. There are no "innocent civilians" in this type of conflict. It's kill or be killed.

....not enough died

Israel will self destruct eventually,

a society based on paranoia and wars can't survive long, expensive and too much of a drain of valuable resources

live by the sword, die by the sword, couldn't happen to a better bunch of kunts

It's not really a society, is it?

It interesting how the ones bemoaning the 'terrible attitude of Israel' envers Hamas, are exhibiting the exact same attitude they deplore, envers Israel... Hmmm, we wouldn't be projecting, now would we...?

Originally Posted by sabang

Earlier, Israel intensified air and artillery attacks on the territory.

Not enough, apparently.

In one raid, at least 13 people were killed when a missile struck a crowded mosque in Beit Lahiya, Palestinian medics said.

Mosques become legitimate targets when they are used by terrorists for other than wholesome prayer and peaceful teachings, wouldn't you say? Probably not.

Militants in Gaza meanwhile fired more rockets into southern Israel on Saturday, one of which hit the port of Ashdod, injuring two people.

Says much.

A missile striking a Mosque with over 200 people in it?
That does not conform to the IDF terms of engagement displayed thus far- I can only hope, or presume, that it was a mistake

I would guess it wasn't a mistake if the mosque was being used for other than its intended, some would say peaceful, purpose.

Israel has shown restraint in responding to the Hamas atrocities, and though our resident lefties are all too eager to condemn Israel regardless, they carefully evade the fact that their home countries would have acted sooner and more forcefully to terrorists firing rockets into their cities.

Don't forget the all important targeting of schools and hospitals, as well....

Originally Posted by Rural Surin

Wonder how it would be if the U.S. and Britain pulled the plug? Israel would be a shell if it weren't for the complete and benevelent maintenance by their 'Mommys'.

seems that would be true for most of the countries in the world even including most in Europe doesn't it? and the one your currently living in..

U.S. Vetoes of UN Resolutions Critical of Israel

(1972-2006)

Vetoes: 1972-1982

Subject Date & Meeting US Rep Casting Veto Vote Palestine: Syrian-Lebanese Complaint. 3 power draft resolution 2/10784 9/10/1972 Bush 13-1, 1 Palestine: Examination of Middle East Situation. 8-power draft resolution (S/10974) 7/2/1973 Scali 13-1, 0 (China not partic.) Palestine: Egyptian-Lebanese Complaint. 5-power draft power resolution (S/11898) 12/8/1975 Moynihan 13-1, 1 Palestine: Middle East Problem, including Palestinian question. 6-power draft resolution (S/11940) 1/26/1976 Moynihan 9-1,3 (China & Libya not partic.) Palestine: Situation in Occupied Arab Territories. 5-power draft resolution (S/12022) 3/25/1976 Scranton 14-1,0 Palestine: Report on Committee on Rights of Palestinian People. 4-power draft resolution (S/121119) 6/29/1976 Sherer 10-1,4 Palestine: Palestinian Rights. Tunisian draft resolution. (S/13911) 4/30/1980 McHenry 10-1,4 Palestine: Golan Heights. Jordan draft resolution. (S/14832/Rev. 2) 1/20/1982 Kirkpatrick 9-1,5 Palestine: Situation in Occupied Territories, Jordan draft resolution (S/14943) 4/2/1982 Lichenstein 13-1,1 Palestine: Incident at the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. 4-power draft resolution 4/20/1982 Kirpatrick 14-1, 0 Palestine: Conflict in Lebanon. Spain draft resolution. (S/15185) 6/8/1982 Kirpatrick 14-1,0 Palestine: Conflict in Lebanon. France draft resolution. (S/15255/Rev. 2) 6/26/1982 Lichenstein 14-1 Palestine: Conflict in Lebanon. USSR draft resolution. (S/15347/Rev. 1, as orally amended) 8/6/1982 Lichenstein 11-1,3 Palestine: Situation in Occupied Territories, 20-power draft resolution (S/15895) 8/2/1983 Lichenstein 13-1,1

Security Council Vetoes/Negative voting 1983-present

Subject Date Vote Occupied Arab Territories: Wholesale condemnation of Israeli settlement policies - not adopted 1983 S. Lebanon: Condemns Israeli action in southern Lebanon. S/16732 9/6/1984 Vetoed: 13-1 (U.S.), with 1 abstention (UK) Occupied Territories: Deplores "repressive measures" by Israel against Arab population. S/19459. 9/13/1985 Vetoed: 10-1 (U.S.), with 4 abstentions (Australia, Denmark, UK, France) Lebanon: Condemns Israeli practices against civilians in southern Lebanon. S/17000. 3/12/1985 Vetoed: 11-1 (U.S.), with 3 abstentions (Australia, Denmark, UK) Occupied Territories: Calls upon Israel to respect Muslim holy places. S/17769/Rev. 1 1/30/1986 Vetoed: 13-1 (US), with one abstention (Thailand) Lebanon: Condemns Israeli practices against civilians in southern Lebanon. S/17730/Rev. 2. 1/17/1986 Vetoed: 11-1 (U.S.), with 3 abstentions (Australia, Denmark, UK) Libya/Israel: Condemns Israeli interception of Libyan plane. S/17796/Rev. 1. 2/6/1986 Vetoed: 10 -1 (US), with 4 abstentions (Australia, Denmark, France, UK) Lebanon: Draft strongly deplored repeated Israeli attacks against Lebanese territory and other measures and practices against the civilian population; (S/19434) 1/18/1988 vetoed 13-1 (US), with 1 abstention (UK) Lebanon: Draft condemned recent invasion by Israeli forces of Southern Lebanon and repeated a call for the immediate withdrawal of all Israeli forces from Lebanese territory; (S/19868) 5/10/1988 vetoed 14-1 (US) Lebanon: Draft strongly deplored the recent Israeli attack against Lebanese territory on 9 December 1988; (S/20322) 12/14/1988 vetoed 14-1 (US) Occupied territories: Draft called on Israel to accept de jure applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention; (S/19466) 1988 vetoed 14-1 (US) Occupied territories: Draft urged Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention, rescind the order to deport Palestinian civilians, and condemned policies and practices of Israel that violate the human rights of the Palestinian people in the occupied territories; (S/19780) 1988 vetoed 14-1 (US) Occupied territories: Strongly deplored Israeli policies and practices in the occupied territories, and strongly deplored also Israel's continued disregard of relevant Security Council decisions. 2/17/1989 Vetoed 14-1 (US) Occupied territories: Condemned Israeli policies and practices in the occupied territories. 6/9/1989 Vetoed 14-1 (US) Occupied territories: Deplored Israel's policies and practices in the occupied territories. 11/7/1989 Vetoed 14-1 (US) Occupied territories: NAM draft resolution to create a commission and send three security council members to Rishon Lezion, where an Israeli gunmen shot down seven Palestinian workers. 5/31/1990 Vetoed 14-1 (US) Middle East: Confirms that the expropriation of land by Israel in East Jerusalem is invalid and in violation of relevant Security Council resolutions and provisions of the Fourth Geneva convention; expresses support of peace process, including the Declaration of Principles of 9/13/1993 5/17/1995 Vetoed 14-1 (US) Middle East: Calls upon Israeli authorities to refrain from all actions or measures, including settlement activities. 3/7/1997 Vetoed 14-1 (US) Middle East: Demands that Israel cease construction of the settlement in east Jerusalem (called Jabal Abu Ghneim by the Palestinians and Har Homa by Israel), as well as all the other Israeli settlement activity in the occupied territories
3/21/1997 Vetoed 13-1,1 (US)Call for UN Observers Force in West Bank, Gaza3/27/2001Vetoed 9-1 (US),
with four abstentions
(Britain, France, Ireland and Norway) Condemned acts of terror, demanded an end to violence and the establishment of a monitoring mechanism to bring in observers.12/14/2001Vetoed 12-1 (US)
with two abstentions
(Britain and Norway) On the killing by Israeli forces of several UN employees and the destruction of the World Food Programme (WFP) warehouse
12/19/2002

12-1 (US)
with two abstentions
(Bulgaria and Cameroon)

Demand that Israel halt threats to expel Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat9/16/03Vetoed 11-1 (US)
with three abstentions
(Britain, Germany and Bulgaria) Seeks to bar Israel from extending security fence10/14/03Vetoed 10-1 with four absentations (Britain, Germany, Bulgaria and Cameroon)Condemns Israel for killing Ahmed Yassin3/25/04Vetoed 11-1 (US)
with three absentations
(Britain, Germany, Romania)Calls For Israel To Halt Gaza Operation10/05/04Vetoed 11-1 (US)
with three absentations
(Britain, Germany, Romania)Calls For Israel To Halt Gaza Operation7/13/06Vetoed 10-1 (US)
with four absentations
(Britain, Peru, Denmark and Slovakia)Calls For Israel To Halt Gaza Operation11/11/06Vetoed 10-1 (US)
with four absentations
(Britain, Denmark, Japan and Slovakia)

Source: U.S. State Department; UN, various news sources

The US could easily force Israel to get back behind the 1967 borders and stop their human rights abuses. Instead they veto every effort by the UN to promote peace in the area.

Originally Posted by DrivingForce

Originally Posted by Rural Surin

Wonder how it would be if the U.S. and Britain pulled the plug? Israel would be a shell if it weren't for the complete and benevelent maintenance by their 'Mommys'.

seems that would be true for most of the countries in the world even including most in Europe doesn't it? and the one your currently living in..

Textbook American illusionist and apologist. What a poor example of clear and independent thought you are. Your folks must be so proud.

- During the 'truce', which Israel observed, Palestinians have lobbed over 1,700 rockets into Israel - in fact, there have been more rockets and mortars thrown into Israel during the truce then without it - so this isn't a question of 'One or two rockets thrown over from Gaza'.

- of the over 400 casualties on the Palestinian side, 60 (or thereabouts) or so have been civilians. Israel *does* have the technology for near surgical strikes, and they target either Hamas installations, weapons depots, infrastructure, or personnel.

- Hamas deliberately uses civilian installations, like schools and mosques, to house their weapons, equipment, or personnel. This contributes as to why there are civilian casualties, as they use civilians as shields.

- Israel, before targeting any buildings or locations that contain civilians, or have civilians nearby, alert and notify the civilians to clear the target zone. This is done either with flyers, or in some cases by making phone calls to the individuals advising to clear the premises. They are usually given 15 minutes or more to do so, which is plenty.

- For the record, in contrast, Hamas targets civilians targets exclusively, with the intention of maximizing civilians casualties.

There just seems to be a one-sided reporting on this issue, so I just wanted to throw in some factoids to balance this out.

Thus, considering the above, and that we are not dealing with one or two rockets, at which point *DO* you decide that you have had enough shelling of your backyard, and are you allowed to do something about it?

Once we agree that you are allowed to do something about it, what should those measures be?

Think about that.

Oh, right, and let's disregard that Panda conveniently ignores a very simple, very plain, and very straightforward question asked of him.

Let me repeat it, to help his failing memory:

"Putting your rhethoric aside for a second, what do you suggest the Israelis do, then?"

...same old promoted story: Israelis, good guys. {anything} Islamic, bad guys.