WW3 Upon Us?

How is NATO acting illegally by befriending a few nations cast off by Russia 20 years ago? It's symbiotic. Georgia wants protection from an increasingly belligerent former ruler -- NATO can bolster its influence by adding personnel/geography.

Sovereign nations have been doing that for 1,000s of years.

Russia is feeling put out and wants it's satellites back. Too bad they pawned them away in 1989. US and NATO have merely snapped them up before the bear could rumble into the pawn shop to reclaim them.

(This is mere analogy for those who might think I actually believe anybody bought Georgia, or Ukraine or any other country. They're free to choose their allies.)

it's all a big misunderstanding at the end, once more the balkans are at the center of a dispute, we saw that one before. A mistake was made when the USSR fell, those shitty little countries got to go back to their miserable self like they used to in the last century.

The US thinks it's doing the right thing, but it's all too early and a big provocation for the former USSR, they have every right to react

the only solution is to kick out those countries from NATO and appease the big bear,

Bear will starve, so give up on that one Butterfy.

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Originally Posted by britmaveric

Bear will starve,

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and how will it starve ? or did you speak again before thinking ?

Too late russians have fell into NATO's trap - quick entry into NATO for Ukraine and Georgia. Other eastern block countries are falling over themselves for defense missile capabilities. And it could have been avoided if the Russians showed a bit of restraint. (dumb move on their part in the end if you think about it)

Sabang and Butterfly solidly in Russia's corner.

Might be a good fight. :rolleyes:

The rest of the modern world respects sovereign borders and has a problem with unilateral, immediate, no-consult, no-warning invasions. It's dirty pool.

The obvious retort is US-Iraq. Forget it. Ain't even close.

^ I think you missed the point as usual Tex,

I said I could understand the Russian reactions, and how the US was wrong to lure former satellites into NATO, it's provocation, and such a provocation wouldn't be tolerated either on US soil if it had to happen on the US borders,

remember Communism spreading in South America and what it triggered in the US when it did ? remember Cuba ?

I still see the same outcome as before- Georgia loses it's two disputed territories, but then joins Nato.

A lot of hot air being said, but nobody is willing to put Nato troops on the ground. 'Empty words' the Russian foreign minister said. If the US is so sure about this situation, why not send Troops Tex?

Don't worry, we are not holding our breath. :rolleyes:

Perhaps Russia will honor its word and get out of Georgia completely. Given that a second thought or is this a complete takeback of what Russia will term a breakaway (hehe) republic?

Recall my analogy of Chinatown San Francisco? What business does Russia have in invading a foreign country to protect its citizens there?

Complete nonsense reasoning.

With the new NATO trick that the Bush administration has pulled with Poland, Russians have found justification to stay in Georgia now :)

got to show the world what they are made of, shock and awe (sound familiar ?)

Russia let them go. Big mistake. Who's their daddy now?

Regarding NATO, Putin actually wanted to enter into the NATO group, he even offered his radar system to G W Bush for the protection against rogue nations, he refused.

Also the majority of Georgians do not like their government who is ethnic cleansing his country. Whilever there is an interest financially in Georgia, the allies will overlook this issue. War is not just about firing missiles, allies are not just about offering military protection.

The west is responsible for economic war on many countries. Indonesia, Philipeens, Africa, Cambodia and Vietnam to mention a few, but they will not win over Russia as far as an econimic war is concerend.

^^ yeah, and it was a mistake. Like every mistake, it can be corrected :)

EU is so "cowardly" ineffective as a defense strategy, that they should take this opportunity to kick those balkan state out of our economic system while they still can before they become too big a liability,

The Enlargement was EU biggest mistake,

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Originally Posted by Jesus Jones

The west is responsible for economic war on many countries. Indonesia, Philipeens, Africa, Cambodia and Vietnam to mention a few, but they will not win over Russia as far as an econimic war is concerend.

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Translation: The EU and the US will just rollover,

in some ways, it will also question NATO effectiveness, ball is in the US camp

Keep your allies close. Your enemies closer.

I fondly recall Donald Rummy's advice. Dump the ineffective partnerships with old Europe and push the frontier into Georgia, Poland, and beyond. Strike while the iron is hot.

Seems we're striking just as the bear is awakening to what he has given away.

Who might be bluffing?

Crisis in the Caucasus. What Were They Smoking in the White House? by Eric Margolis

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Originally Posted by Texpat

Dump the ineffective partnerships with old Europe and push the frontier into Georgia, Poland, and beyond. Strike while the iron is hot.

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It's actually sensible, would force the EU to implement a real defense strategy instead of relying on a 50 year partnership, it will also cut lose America backdoor grip on Europe,

however, those countries wouldn't join NATO without old Europe, as it will have no credibility as a defense strategy,

what would the US gain by protecting those little new partners ? nothing really

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Originally Posted by Jesus Jones

Crisis in the Caucasus. What Were They Smoking in the White House? by Eric Margolis

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very good article,

and below is really what it's all about,

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The west must accept Russia has vital national interests in the Caucasus and the former USSR. Russia is a great power and must be afforded respect. The days of treating Russia like a banana republic are over. Have we learned nothing from World War I or II, both of which began with flare-ups in obscure Sarajevo and the Danzig Corridor?

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Excellent article there Jesus Jones, thanks for posting.

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Originally Posted by Jesus Jones

Regarding NATO, Putin actually wanted to enter into the NATO group, he even offered his radar system to G W Bush for the protection against rogue nations, he refused.

Also the majority of Georgians do not like their government who is ethnic cleansing his country. Whilever there is an interest financially in Georgia, the allies will overlook this issue. War is not just about firing missiles, allies are not just about offering military protection.

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Wild accusations. Any links from someone sane to back them up?

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Originally Posted by Jesus Jones

Crisis in the Caucasus. What Were They Smoking in the White House? by Eric Margolis

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Interesting perspective.

I am a natural sceptic of conspiracy theories, but this whole affair seems full of them...

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Originally Posted by Butterfly

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Originally Posted by Jesus Jones

Crisis in the Caucasus. What Were They Smoking in the White House? by Eric Margolis

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very good article,

and below is really what it's all about,

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The west must accept Russia has vital national interests in the Caucasus and the former USSR. Russia is a great power and must be afforded respect. The days of treating Russia like a banana republic are over. Have we learned nothing from World War I or II, both of which began with flare-ups in obscure Sarajevo and the Danzig Corridor?

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For once I agree with you. The alternative (which, on the face of it, seems to be the stratagy) is for the encirclement and humbling of Russia. A plan not without merits in an empirical sense, but dangerous and potentionally calamatous from a practical viewpoint.

If all this keeps up the 2014 Winter games in Sochi could be rather interesting.

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Originally Posted by bkkandrew

A plan not without merits in an empirical sense, but dangerous and potentionally calamatous from a practical viewpoint.

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Extremely dangerous and another example of the lack of foresight in threats and political reactive rhetoric spouting from what can only be another example of the double standard the "west" uses when dealing with Russia.

When will the west understand a strong relationship and ally with Russia is far more important to it's interests than the so called "territorial integrity" of Georgia. The west and in particular the US because of their preoccupation in Iraq and Afghanistan has ignored for far too long all the signals coming from Russia regarding issues which needed to be addressed in a timely manner and resolved diplomatically. To now address the Georgian problem with threats of "punishment" and implied military intervention would be laughable were it not for the potential long term consequence of pushing Russia further from considering cooperation with the west. The rhetoric that somehow Russia is a threat "territorial integrity" is misguided. Let South Ossetia and Abkhazia decide if they want to remain autonomous zones or independent countries as did Kosavo. The Russians agree this is the "democratic" way to resolve this long standing issue. Just because it is a given they will do so and likely align themselves with the CIS is no justification for the west to oppose their independence. Why the sudden objection by the west to "democratically" allow break away regions to determine their independence?:confused:

In a few weeks/months the Georgian crisis will be back page news. World war 3 will have been averted! The west's reaction will not be forgotten quite so easily by Russia. There was plenty of opportunity when the west had a ready and willing partner in Russia lead by Putin, "a man I can deal with" so said GWB, to form real partnerships in security, economic and political cooperation.

The rhetoric coming out of the west over the Georgian crisis, instigated by an over zealous Georgian President, may have the real effect of pushing Russia to align itself even more than they are with another very large economic and military partner.

What then for all those "plastic" saber rattling westerners?

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Originally Posted by bkkandrew

For once I agree with you. The alternative (which, on the face of it, seems to be the stratagy) is for the encirclement and humbling of Russia. A plan not without merits in an empirical sense, but dangerous and potentionally calamatous from a practical viewpoint.

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Also not that easy.
Great men have tried and failed. History has a habit of repeating itself