Thread: Westerners misunderstand Islam

Oil is a two-way street.

Without the sale of oil, most ME countries would be in the same boat as Mongolia or Sarahan countries -- only a lot more pissed off.

I should think a lot of Muslim leaders do not speak up because they agree with the terrorism.

Bingo! Hit the nail on the head didn't you?

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by chinthee

I suppose it is your argument that their peace-loving and highly effective campaign against the radical elements in their own religion has just been ignored by me and others.

Well put, that's exactly what's being said although I don't know where you got the "highly effective" bit from, I would guess that it's defensive sarcasm designed to distract us from the fact that your argument was plain wrong. It's effectiveness remains to be seen.

I think he was trying to invalidate the obvious rebuttal by stating it first. Doesn't work though.

^A hollow rebuttal is not a rebuttal.

Originally Posted by chinthee

I should think a lot of Muslim leaders do not speak up because they agree with the terrorism.

Bingo! Hit the nail on the head didn't you?

Plese tell me you got as far as the next sentence..

Didn't someone before mention about the leaders of a religion not always being the best representatives of it?

^Well, alrighty then. I guess that lets Islam off the hook then doesn't it? What's for lunch?

ham samiches

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Did you suppose the cultural and artistic refinements of Moorish Spain somehow manifest from thin air?

And what, if anything, does that have to do with the Greeks?

This might help with your historical and cultural myopia:

Unlike the Byzantines, with their suspicion of classical science and philosophy, the Muslims were enjoined by the Prophet to "seek learning as far as China" - as, eventually, they did. In the eighth century, however, they had a more convenient source: the works of Greek scientists stored in libraries in Constantinople and other centers of the Byzantine empire. In the ninth century the Caliph al-Mamun, son of the famous Harun al-Rashid, began to tap that invaluable source. With the approval of the Byzantine emperor, he dispatched scholars to select and bring back to Baghdad Greek scientific manuscripts for translation into Arabic at Bayt al-Hikmah, "the House of Wisdom."

link

Originally Posted by Texpat

Originally Posted by sabang

Radical Islam has it's spurious justifications- the Crusades, the Palestine issue, invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, US troops in Saudi etc.

But the British and French were welcome? You're ever so predictable.

No more welcome than the US military, but I was not aware there was a large scale Brit or French military presence in Saudi after the first Gulf War. This was the excuse gave for AQ declaring it's Jihad, and subsequent bombings such as the USS Cole and 911.

Originally Posted by chinthee

I should think a lot of Muslim leaders do not speak up because they agree with the terrorism.

Bingo! Hit the nail on the head didn't you?

And some who criticize it may have problems as well.

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Did you suppose the cultural and artistic refinements of Moorish Spain somehow manifest from thin air?

And what, if anything, does that have to do with the Greeks?

This might help with your historical and cultural myopia:

Unlike the Byzantines, with their suspicion of classical science and philosophy, the Muslims were enjoined by the Prophet to "seek learning as far as China" - as, eventually, they did. In the eighth century, however, they had a more convenient source: the works of Greek scientists stored in libraries in Constantinople and other centers of the Byzantine empire. In the ninth century the Caliph al-Mamun, son of the famous Harun al-Rashid, began to tap that invaluable source. With the approval of the Byzantine emperor, he dispatched scholars to select and bring back to Baghdad Greek scientific manuscripts for translation into Arabic at Bayt al-Hikmah, "the House of Wisdom."

link

I can understand why you would be against a religion that had "seek learning" as a basic tenet. So the Byzantines had all that Greek knowledge locked away in their libraries and it wasn't until the Arabs came along that anybody bothered to read it, put it to use, and initiate a cultural and scientific renaissance? Score one for the Muslims, I'd say.

By the way, where did our own "cultural refinements" come from, were they formulated from thin air? Oh yes, you also didn't answer my question about who it was who sacked Constantinople and precipitated the downfall of the Byzantine Empire.

I was not aware there was a large scale Brit or French military presence in Saudi after the first Gulf War

Their tents were on the adjacent block row as mine. The frogs had a much better chow tent with baguettes and French-styled schwarmas. Rumor was they had wine too, but they never shared -- cnuts. The Brits were there with Tornadoes and decent mashed potatoes.

Originally Posted by chinthee

^Well, alrighty then. I guess that lets Islam off the hook then doesn't it? What's for lunch?

You know that's exactly what I thought, I'm popping out for some pork on rice.

Two big Leos and a bacon porkburger on Jewish Rye!

And a blowjob while watching a porno if I can swing it.

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Originally Posted by stroller

Only if you are being disingenuous and focus on what suits you and willfully ignore what doesn't - the survey this topic is about, for example.

It's entirely disingenuous to ignore the violent and murderous nature of early Islam. Tsk, tsk stroller...what would Noam Chomsky say?

You want to maintain Islam is misunderstood! Fine I maintain Islam isn't misunderstood. Not to say that greek civilization wasn't in part spread through conquest.
But we're discussing Islam aren't we! Not Greek civilization.

It is entirely disingenuous to focus on the violent and murderous nature of early Islam when a survey of present day attitudes is the topic.
I haven't mentioned Greek civilisation, you are bringing it in.

The unwillingness of some to comment on topic in this thread is astonishing.

Originally Posted by DrB0b

By the way, where did our own "cultural refinements" come from, were they formulated from thin air?

No one denies the greek origins western science.
The topic is poor misunderstood Islam. They only reason I bring up Moorish Spain is because the sophisticated culture which existed there was borrowed and not the purported "grand Islamic renaissance".

Oh yes, you also didn't answer my question about who it was who sacked Constantinople and precipitated the downfall of the Byzantine Empire.

See post #87.

Originally Posted by stroller

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Originally Posted by stroller

Only if you are being disingenuous and focus on what suits you and willfully ignore what doesn't - the survey this topic is about, for example.

It's entirely disingenuous to ignore the violent and murderous nature of early Islam. Tsk, tsk stroller...what would Noam Chomsky say?

You want to maintain Islam is misunderstood! Fine I maintain Islam isn't misunderstood. Not to say that greek civilization wasn't in part spread through conquest.
But we're discussing Islam aren't we! Not Greek civilization.

It is entirely disingenuous to focus on the violent and murderous nature of early Islam when a survey of present day attitudes is the topic.
I haven't mentioned Greek civilisation, you are bringing it in.

The unwillingness of some to comment on topic in this thread is astonishing.

You're the one trying to maintain Islam is misunderstood. Well I'm saying it isn't and have provided a compelling historical context to support my thoughts.

I brought up the Greeks because so often the magnificent art and culture of moorish Islam is touted as something original where it was really borrowed from the Greeks.

You have not commented on the findings in the article, or the more detailed one posted by Dr.Bob, but chose to focus on a particular part of history I never made any claims about and which aren't part of the topic - and far from 'convincing' you merely confirmed what is well known already, i.e. the influence of Greek and other culture on Islam.

Originally Posted by chinthee

I should think a lot of Muslim leaders do not speak up because they agree with the terrorism.

Bingo! Hit the nail on the head didn't you?

Nopes! Wrong perception as always. Most Muslim leaders do not speak up because they won't be able to withdraw votes, if they spoke, in those countries.

IMO there's a need for bottom-up approach not the other way round. Muslims need to bring change in their societies. All Muslims are members of these socities and they have some responsibility. I am playing my part .... I give messages of peace, love and harmony to Muslims who I meet every now and then.

Muslims like myself are in akward position as we are fighting on two fronts - explaining things to non Msulims and also to stupid Muslims who pick arms up for small things.

Originally Posted by machangezi

IMO there's a need for bottom-up approach not the other way round. Muslims need to bring change in their societies. All Muslims are members of these socities and they have some responsibility. I am playing my part .... I give messages of peace, love and harmony to Muslims who I meet every now and then. Muslims like myself are in akward position as we are fighting on two fronts - explaining things to non Msulims and also to stupid Muslims who pick arms up for small things.

I am in agreement with you there. I work for a number of Muslims, and they are only to pleased to explain the religion to me. They also have a complete agreement of condemnation of acts committed in the name of Islam. But to say that to the elders is a no go. Unfortunately it is the extremist Mullahs (?) who gain the headlines and who then latch on to the few disgruntled followers and then indoctrine them with their extremist views. It is the few that seem to be the troublemakers not the majority, and they get all the press coverage.

My 2p worth

It is the few that seem to be the troublemakers not the majority, and they get all the press coverage.

Yeah, maybe, those who burn foreign embassies and post offices because the western world doesn't hold dear the same values as they -- like a cartoon.

If Americans were incited to violence every time a US flag was burned, there would be smoking holes where countries used to be pockmarked around the globe. Restraint is a good thing.

Like Chitown said at the beginning of this thread, if they wish to participate in the world economy, culture, entertainment, technology, society they have to respect others while living within their borders.

If they can't do that, stay home and exercise the rights your country will afford you. Ironically, many have moved abroad for just those reasons.

Internet forums are a good example. When a farang steps on his dick and lands in a foreign jail, most people on TD are quick to denounce the criminal action and admit what a sorry example he/she sets for their country. Embarassment for the crime.

I just don't see anybody feeling bad or apologizing for the incredibly stupid shit some Muslims do. Maybe it happens, but I don't see it. And neither do others. Maybe that's a cultural thing, but I doubt it.

To be fair, I have to admit Westerners take the cake when it comes to crime in Thailand. ME/Muslim/Arab/Persian folks are pups in the Thailand crime scene. Generally much better behaved, IMO.

^ Agreed!

Funny thing happened today. I met a lovely stunner while visiting a friend at Bumrungrad hospital. She.....smiled......we talked......she smiled.....we talked some more. She told me she was from Cambodia.

^ ^
texpat's last post hits the nail right on the head.