Thread: Hanoi Jane

^ I wasn't being sarcastic in asking if war was declared. I was just trying to put over the point that if war wasn't declared then she cannot be judged as a traitor. Similar to Jesse Jackson meeting with Saddam before the gulf war.

Understood, Ivor. You are right in that Congress must pass a declaration of war. But, it did sign this Gulf of Tonkin resolution. Politicians expanded on this and fuelled more troop involvement. Most of it reflected the fear of communists taking over the world.

"Lyndon B. Johnson
The 36th U.S. president, who promised to honor his predecessor John F. Kennedy’s limited U.S. commitments in Vietnam but ended up escalating the war drastically after the U.S. Congress passed the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution in 1964. Empowered by the resolution, Johnson authorized Operation Rolling Thunder in 1965 to bomb North Vietnam into submission. When this failed, he sent more than 500,000 U.S. troops to Vietnam and ultimately converted the conflict into a protracted and bitter war."

SparkNotes: The Vietnam War (1945-1975): Key People & Terms

Originally Posted by Ivor Biggun

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies

Can anyone confirm that either Vietnam or US actually declared war, as I'm sure no peace treaty has ever been signed between the two ?

The USA never declared war in SEA. Both Korea and Vietnam were officially a "Police Action".

^ Just another example of how amazingly pliable peoples attitudes and emotions are during times of conflict.
It makes you realise why politicians manipulate people so much through Spin bordering on the incredible. It works- the great unwashed masses swallow it like a fishhook.
As a society, we haven't really evolved that much from the Salem witch trials.

^^

well, there goes another "fact".

it's obvious that many vietnam vets got a raw deal...and for whatever reason some of those vets aren't able to direct their anger at the US govt that screwed them....so instead they've chosen to focus their rage on an actress.

it's all very simple. if fonda had commited any of the crimes against the state that boonie alleges, she would have been brought up on charges.

get over it. the late sixties and early seventies were a lifetime ago.

Whether or not Fonda's actions rose to the level of sedition or treason is not so much the point today. At that time, there was much unrest and lots of anti-war protesting, reaching peaks at the legendary Woodstock music festival in 1969, continuing with the Kent State University shootings or (massacre) as it's commonly known, where the National Guard shot and killed war protesters.

By July, 1972 when "Hanoi Jane" made her infamous trip to Vietnam, Americans were damn well fed up with the war, the protests, and the country being torn apart by not just Vietnam, but huge generational changes, the hippie movement, rejection of traditional values, etc..

However, Fonda's actions were seen by most Americans then, and are today, as a treasonous act. Many yuppies, who came of age as hippies and attended college during that time, even though supporting her actions at the time, as they grew older saw just how wrong it was later.

Celebrities seem to be able to get away with anything due to their popularity, but she will always be known as Hanoi Jane to a large percentage of the populace.

Originally Posted by chinthee

she will always be known as Hanoi Jane to a large percentage of the populace.

i would guess that most of the people who ever referred to her as 'hanoi jane' are already dead.

^Yeah, you have a point. I mean it's not like people refer to her as that instead of her real name. She is famous for lots of things, including once being married to mogul Ted Turner.

But, for anyone over 45, there is still the label on her.

i'm sure many vietnam vets still call her that...but back in the seventies weren't the people who were so outraged by her actions old-timers, and WW2/ korean war vets?

^Ray, not really. I was just young enough to avoid the Vietnam war. There was one risky period when I graduated from high school and was going to college in fall of 73, but the US was already withdrawing after the Paris Peace Accord was signed.

I grew up in a liberal family, and a bit young to be a hippie, but Fonda's actions were a big issue in those days, and we could all read the papers and make up our own minds.

I think there was a sort of nemesis involved in the Vietnam War, because it was a war that both America Lost, and a war in which a probable majority of the population came to believe America was Wrong. For people of a certain age, passions still run high today.

For the USA, a people who had grown up with the unquestioned, ingrained belief of American goodness, rectitude, the inevitability of US victory and 'God being on our side', the defeat in Vietnam and the circumstances surrounding it (Agent Orange, carpet bombing and so on) caused a fair bit of national soul searching, that persists today.

To a more jaded European the whole Vietnam thing might be seen as a 'coming of age' experience in terms of national consciousness.

It's amazing how many older Americans attribute the loss of the Vietnam War to the protest movement rather than the circumstances of the war itself. It is of course a self serving way of thinking, as frankly you can find with all nationalities and races.

Originally Posted by chinthee

Whether or not Fonda's actions rose to the level of sedition or treason is not so much the point today. At that time, there was much unrest and lots of anti-war protesting, reaching peaks at the legendary Woodstock music festival in 1969, continuing with the Kent State University shootings or (massacre) as it's commonly known, where the National Guard shot and killed war protesters.

By July, 1972 when "Hanoi Jane" made her infamous trip to Vietnam, Americans were damn well fed up with the war, the protests, and the country being torn apart by not just Vietnam, but huge generational changes, the hippie movement, rejection of traditional values, etc..

However, Fonda's actions were seen by most Americans then, and are today, as a treasonous act. Many yuppies, who came of age as hippies and attended college during that time, even though supporting her actions at the time, as they grew older saw just how wrong it was later.

Celebrities seem to be able to get away with anything due to their popularity, but she will always be known as Hanoi Jane to a large percentage of the populace.

Excellent post.

hanoi jane will live with her own memories of what she thought was right and the servicemen she shat on will remember her

i think it's better to break up this post into two distinct parts.

Originally Posted by corvettelover

jane will live with her own memories of what she thought was right

yes, she will.

Originally Posted by corvettelover

and the servicemen she shat on will remember her

yes, it certainly appears that some can't seem to get over what a young and naive actress did over 35 years ago.

Originally Posted by raycarey

yes, it certainly appears that some can't seem to get over what a young and naive actress did over 35 years ago.

Ummm.... Naive to be sure but given my age, I guess 37 could be considered young.!

^ hmm. She was 35 actually at the time I believe. Nobody could be considered young at that age in terms of understanding consequences of acts.

You know, I was just musing on what a tremendously influential family she comes from in entertainment. Her father was a screen legend. Her brother played in Easy Rider, one of the defining films of the 60s. She won two academy awards. And, her niece, Bridget Fonda is one of the top hollywood actresses.

A truly accomplished dynastic family in many respects.

Her success and her fame has afforded her a platform few others have in life to espouse their views.

^^ Don't get me started on wiki, NR. We had debates about that already, too.

^ True, CT, I loved Henry Fonda (fek, even watched On Golden Pond to see him and Kate Hepburn, covering my eyes when the Traitor came on camera).

So, Jane was about 35 when she did her tank-topping tour? What was the conscription age then? 18? 21? What's the age for adult incarceration in the States, 16? 18? So, um, you should know right from wrong by then, no? A slight deviation from the topic, but a good DA would have used it on Traitor Jane, too.

If she went and lived out the rest of her days as a Carmelite nun, I might forgive her when she dies.

Just don't let Cindy Sheehan go to Iraq; if the insurgents missed blowing her up, she'd definitely be deep-sixed by friendly fire. She's another one that's done enough already. Who's she campaigning for? Bet Hillary keeps well clear of her. Oh, had to check on her. This is from a Cindy watch blog:

"10/12/07 - A bad, bad day for crazy Cindy!
Cindy announced with great pride that she was a finalist for the Nobel Peace Prize, almost exactly one year ago (minus one day). Now Crazy Al Gore has cheated Cindy out of the Nobel prize she so richly deserved. It's just so very wrong!"
Cindy Sheehan, is she nuts? You bet!!!

Apparently, Cindy used govt and insurance funds related to her son's death, bought some land with it and turned it around to make a quick $35,000 profit. The watch blogger calls her a "war profiteer" like Halliburton. hehe

Originally Posted by November Rain

But a month or so ago, we have guys lambasting a young & naive member of the forum who may have done some things that were mildly embarrassing to herself, but certainly did not 'hurt' anyone else to the extent that Ms Fonda did.

sweetheart, i have no idea who who or what you're referring to.

Originally Posted by November Rain

BTW, have I missed something? Is Wiki now considered a reliable source for factual information? I was under the impression that anyone could submit to Wiki. Am I wrong in that? If I'm right, a Wiki reference may or may not be accurate. Certainly doesn't prove anything.

it's a fair point about wiki, but are you disputing she won two oscars or that her exercise videosand books were successful? to my memory, that is the only wiki citation i made on this thread.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Just don't let Cindy Sheehan go to Iraq; if the insurgents missed blowing her up, she'd definitely be deep-sixed by friendly fire. She's another one that's done enough already. Who's she campaigning for? Bet Hillary keeps well clear of her. Oh, had to check on her. This is from a Cindy watch blog:

you had to, did you? why is that?


fellas, you didn't lose in vietnam because of jane fonda.

And in the end she was right anyway. What business did the Americans have being in Vitnam anyway.

^^ Did I say I was referring to your usage of Wiki? You're either paranoid or filled with an inflated sense of your own importance, Ray.