Hanoi Jane

^^ So, it's not a fact that (mainly American) POW's in Vietnam were held in abominable conditions? It's not a fact that, in many cases, nobody was told whether the serviceman was alive or dead? Contrary to the Geneva Convention? That even today, some families of Vietnam Vets have no idea what happened to their loved ones?
There were no cages in villages? No torture at any time? No beatings? Food was plentiful & readily available?

Next you'll be telling me that the Japanese in WWII were perfect hosts or that the Gestapo were friends of the Jews...:rolleyes:

Please, enlighten me...

^^NR are you pointing at me?

I was, 'cos you snuck in, but now I'm pointing at Ray. :D

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Originally Posted by November Rain

I was, 'cos you snuck in, but now I'm pointing at Ray.

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Kinda though so:) I would think even Ray would have to admit, as Jane did the photo is not likely to engender a lot of sympathy from the folks that were in Vietnam or those enjoying their stay in the Hanoi Hilton.

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Originally Posted by November Rain

Please, enlighten me...

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Originally Posted by November Rain

I'm pointing at Ray.

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november rain,

first, read your post (#23) and pay particular attention to what you claim to be a "fact".

second, read my post (#24) in which i quote you and ask for verification of what you claim to be a "fact".

third, read your post (#26) where you start bleating out histrionics and line up more stawmen than i care to count.

fourth, consider apologizing to all TD members for not having the requisite reading and posting skills necessary for intelligent discussion.

i have no idea if jane fonda did anything to "to aid her fellow countrymen being held in abominable conditions"...but apparently you do because you state it is a "fact". please take this opportunity to share with us that 'fact'....which is all i asked in post #24.

so sweetheart, enlighten me....because I am pointing at You.

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Originally Posted by Norton

would think even Ray would have to admit, as Jane did the photo is not likely to engender a lot of sympathy from the folks that were in Vietnam or those enjoying their stay in the Hanoi Hilton.

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i'm sure it didn't.

she was young and idealistic, and was most likely unaware that her image was going to be manipulated in this way.

i still admire her courage for standing up for what she believed in....very few others in her position put themselves out there like she did.

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Originally Posted by raycarey

she was young and idealistic, and was most likely unaware that her image was going to be manipulated in this way. i still admire her courage for standing up for what she believed in....very few others in her position put themselves out there like she did.

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She was young, idealistic and manipulated. Most on both sides of the argument were. Jane returned to the US and received some bad press as a result of her courage for standing up for what she believed and went on to have a successful career. Had a North Vietnamese celebrity of her stature gone to the US and done the same, the only thing she would be standing up for would be a firing squad. Therein lies the fundamental difference "freedom" and "tyranny".

yes, america is country founded on great principles.

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Originally Posted by raycarey

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Originally Posted by November Rain

Please, enlighten me...

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Originally Posted by November Rain

I'm pointing at Ray.

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november rain,

first, read your post (#23) and pay particular attention to what you claim to be a "fact".

second, read my post (#24) in which i quote you and ask for verification of what you claim to be a "fact".

third, read your post (#26) where you start bleating out histrionics and line up more stawmen than i care to count.

fourth, consider apologizing to all TD members for not having the requisite reading and posting skills necessary for intelligent discussion.

i have no idea if jane fonda did anything to "to aid her fellow countrymen being held in abominable conditions"...but apparently you do because you state it is a "fact". please take this opportunity to share with us that 'fact'....which is all i asked in post #24.

so sweetheart, enlighten me....because I am pointing at You.

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Histrionics? Naah. Not even sentimental mush.

I am not your sweetheart.

Apologise to TD members for not having the requisite reading and posting skills necessary for intelligent discussion? OK, Ray, I've read some of your posts. You apologise to TD & so will I.

I do apologise for the fact that I thought what you were asking for clarification of was the N Vietnamese/Viet Cong's treatment of POW's when it now appears that it is actually Fonda's unwillingness to help her fellow countrymen that you wish me to prove. I got the wrong end of the stick.

Having said that, how about you prove that she tried to help them? I have already admitted I know little about the 'Hanoi Jane' phenomena & expressed my desire to be enlightened. I'm still waiting...

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Originally Posted by November Rain

I do apologise for the fact that I thought what you were asking for clarification of was the N Vietnamese/Viet Cong's treatment of POW's when it now appears that it is actually Fonda's unwillingness to help her fellow countrymen that you wish me to prove. I got the wrong end of the stick.

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i would like to take this opportunity to accept your apology....but i will refrain from commenting on, or questioning which of the stick you got.

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Originally Posted by November Rain

how about you prove that she tried to help them?

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why would i do that?
i never thought she did, and would be quite surprised if that were the case. i simply asked you to back up the "fact" that she didn't....and now you want me to prove that she did?
it doesnt work like that sweetheart.

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Originally Posted by Boon Mee

She's lucky she didn't get shot. The "Losers" are the ones who follow her idology like blind sheep...

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Kinda like the Bush supporters back home.

Jane Fonda, on her much publicised trip to Hanoi, actually only met 7 POW's. The OP is a fabrication, which has been floating around for a long time and convincingly rebuked by the same servicemen it quotes (they did not even meet her). Google it- 'Jane Fonda Hanoi'.

She carried letters back to the US to their loved ones, for them and several other POW's. This was certainly not seditious. She regrets being photographed in an anti-aircraft battery. Yes, she was used for propaganda- reminiscent of the triumphant toppling of the Saddam statue in Baghdad, if you care to remember that one. Propaganda is a part of warfare, I just find it vaguely ridculous when we talk about it as if it is unique to the 'other' side.

I can assure you the Hanoi Hiltons were no worse, in fact a good deal less bad, than the treatment the VC and Nth Vietnamese Army POW's received at the hands of the South Vietnamese. Which is probably why the US military handed over so many of their captives to them.

It is pointless for the Americans and those fighting with them to even attempt to capture the higher moral ground in this war, pointless.

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Originally Posted by November Rain

Until recently, I was under the impression that she just spoke out against the war in Vietnam (as many others did). I supported both her right to do that & the fact she did.

However, I didn't realise (being British & born in '69) that she had actually been to Vietnam & met with POWs & the military govt in North Vietnam. Whether these (above) claims are true or not,

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Course it's true - there's photographic evidence of her sitting on a NVA AA Battery cheering on the enemy. Poster child for sheer irresponsibility and lunatic behavior...

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Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Poster child for sheer irresponsibility and lunatic behavior...

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Sounds like GWB right after an early morning jog. :gwbush:

^^Yes, it's true.

https://teakdoor.com/images/smilies1/You_Rock_Emoticon.gif

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Originally Posted by Boon Mee

there's photographic evidence of her sitting on a NVA AA Battery cheering on the enemy.

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after you get around to explaining how her father being an actor got her out of being charged with "sedition, aid & comfort to the enemy and a whole host of related crimes.", please provide some evidence of her "cheering on the enemy".

and once you've done that, feel free to address all the points in sabang's post directly above yours....particularly the bit about the OP being a complete fabrication.

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Originally Posted by raycarey

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Originally Posted by Boon Mee

there's photographic evidence of her sitting on a NVA AA Battery cheering on the enemy.

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after you get around to explaining how her father being an actor got her out of being charged with "sedition, aid & comfort to the enemy and a whole host of related crimes.", please provide some evidence of her "cheering on the enemy".

and once you've done that, feel free to address all the points in sabang's post directly above yours....particularly the bit about the OP being a complete fabrication.

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I don't need to explain what's prima facie evidence of Hanoi Jane actions - it's all historical fact and if you want to keep harping on and on like another ant clone here...knock yourself out. Remember, denial ain't a river in Egypt, eh?;)

^ It is not illegal to oppose a war booner.

Lets get down to the facts. Was anything she did illegal?

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Originally Posted by sabang

^ It is not illegal to oppose a war booner.

Lets get down to the facts. Was anything she did illegal?

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Absolutely!
Traveling to North Viet Nam and giving speeches to the enemy about how evil American soldiers are. Sitting on the SAM battery (the famous pic) cheering on the enemy. No different than Tokyo Rose who was hung I believe at the end of WW2.

While it's probably not 'illegal' to do so she also was a organizer and chief supporter for the group called FTA. FTA (Fuck The Army) was a lovely little group of seditionists and cowards who spit on us when we returned...:gwbush:

Hey, didn't we have a fekin Jane thread already?

I said it before and I'll say it as many times as someone brings up her name or tells me she was courageous and trying to help the US troops: Bull fekin sh*t. She is a traitor and is guilty of sedition. She should have been tried, found guilty (as she was) and shot.

Sure, oppose the war but do not tell me that consorting with the enemy, demoralising your country's troops and going home to brag about it is the correct way to oppose a bladdy war (oh ya, someone told me this was an illegal war, too, so the Vietcong were technically not the enemy that was torturing and killing US troops). Also, most of the US troops were conscripted, and even if they weren't, a soldier does not tell his CO that he isn't going to fight; it's his gawd dam job to follow fekin orders.

I fekin despise the b*tch to this day, and I'm not even American. Fekin traitor.

I'll admit my ignorance here-

1- Is 'sedition' a recognised crime? If so, it sounds a bit draconian to me under the democratic system.

2- Was she legally entitled to travel to Hanoi, or was this a criminal act? If so, how did she get there?

These are the updated laws; not sure about the Vietnam era. We need Ant to sift through the law books for us. :)

Treason
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. (this is 2006; before that the punishment was way worse)
US CODE: Title 18,CHAPTER 115—TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES

Seditious Speech and Seditious Libel.--Opposition to government through speech alone has been subject to punishment throughout much of history under laws proscribing ''seditious'' utterances. In this country, the Sedition Act of 1798 made criminal, inter alia, malicious writings which defamed, brought into contempt or disrepute, or excited the hatred of the people against the Government, the President, or the Congress, or which stirred people to sedition.
FindLaw Constitutional Law Center: U.S. Constitution: First Amendment: Annotations pg. 18 of 21

I cannot find the sentencing. I know it was much harsher years ago.

Jane getting to Hanoi? Fek, I'm sure she did what everyone does -- she went via fekin Bangkok on a commercial flight. I doubt the US armed forces would have given her a free ride like she did for them.

^
At that time I don't believe she went thru Bangkok as the war was going heavy then.

^ Gimme a better transport vehicle and point of entry...QE II at Nah Trang?

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Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies

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Can anyone confirm that either Vietnam or US actually declared war, as I'm sure no peace treaty has ever been signed between the two ?

^True, it was just a bit of street cleaning and jungle clearing.