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  1. #26
    Thailand Expat Backspin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    Thus the success of the Eden Club.
    Perfect example. 80% of restaurants fail. I'm sure it's the same for whorehouses. But some win the restaurant lottery. And some win the whorehouse lottery. Instead of starting either one of them , it's a hell of a lot easier to just buy a lottery ticket.

    But some will say Mr.Eden was a hard working visionary genious. As he so aptly displayed at his end.

  2. #27
    Excommunicated baldrick's Avatar
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    Like most interactions , the path of least resistance determines the majority of outcomes

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    Perfect example. 80% of restaurants fail. I'm sure it's the same for whorehouses. But some win the restaurant lottery. And some win the whorehouse lottery. Instead of starting either one of them , it's a hell of a lot easier to just buy a lottery ticket.

    But some will say Mr.Eden was a hard working visionary genious. As he so aptly displayed at his end.
    Did you write this using your own free will?

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    Thinking about it more it can also sometimes feel like the reasoning process is an attempt to get an outcome to happen, but the outcome is always uncertain.

    Like we may have been reading some health literature and so the health agent activist in our head engages in the decision about dinner and we try to get ourselves to choose the healthy bean salad but the unhealthy fry-up is pushing on it its own merits.

    Eventually we decide something and eat dinner but the decision we make is only sometimes the rational intelligent option.

    I have heard our consciousness or free will compared to a rider on an elephant by the wonderfully intelligent Jonathon Haidt

    It is a great analogy I think. We are like a rider trying to get the elephant to go a certain way but mostly just along for the ride as the emotionally driven behemoth of subconsiousness crashes forward on its inscrutable emotionally driven path.
    It is partly the decision making process, and partly the scale of the decision. I have not had to make any decisions whilst riding an elephant! My free will declined such opportunity due to the lack of value.
    If your choices are driven by pleasure, like backspin for example, the choice is quite simple.

    Simple choices like what to eat are fairly simple to calculate. I have a kitchen and fridge containing a choice of foods. The easy option is to order out and have your meal delivered. It might not be exactly what you want, and you know it’s the lazy option, but I also know that preparing the meal myself, is a cheaper, more effective option, purely from a cost point of view.

    More complex issues like long distance travel are much more complex. Do I go by air, sea or overland? Costs and duration must be considered. Is the journey one way, or return? Do I have time and money to take the longer option? Can I splash out on business class, because that journey is more civilised and allows greater luggage choices?

    Clearly a much more considered view is required, because for me, value is equally important to comfort and ease. A seagoing journey might cost a similar amount, but the journey itself has adventure value, because it becomes part of my own experiential learning, helping to inform such decisions where the magnitude requires greater consideration to determine value and outcome.

    I freely admit that on some occasions I choose the lazy food option, just because, fuck it, why not. Almost instantaneous, no prep or cooking and no washing up. The value and outcome of such a decision is much easier to achieve. The same cannot be said for the long distance travel options.

    Such decisions require thought, and the free will based on academic knowledge and understanding, and experiential learning, if we are to make informed choices.

    The choice of religious beliefs and our own world view are no different. Think, consider, and use accumulated knowledge and understanding to inform the choice, which is made by our own free will. Like wise, my choice not to ride that elephant was much easier, but based on the same principles.

  5. #30
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    So, does this 'free will', or lack of it, mean that our lives are already destined? Does it mean that if time travel was possible then it would be bounded by our own lifespan? That is, we could jump forward or rewind within our life but would make exactly the same decisions regardless?

  6. #31
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    ^ Yes. Evolution is a cathartic misnomer, it simply doesn't exist and all inventions and innovations are merely existent in our imagination . . . well, they would be if they were real.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    So, does this 'free will', or lack of it, mean that our lives are already destined? Does it mean that if time travel was possible then it would be bounded by our own lifespan? That is, we could jump forward or rewind within our life but would make exactly the same decisions regardless?
    Interesting proposition, to restrict free will to a generational span.
    Im sure that my father, and my children would have made different choices, based on free will, at the time those choices were made.

    I find it of interesting that my father, whilst having little interest in religion, supported my mothers decision to send us all to Sunday school in a C of E church school. (Nooky without interruption on Sundays).

    My own children have not had any religion forced on them. They have been given behavioral guidelines with consequences, should they fail to meet those guidelines. The secondary school chosen for them was based on the school academic record, and the fact that they were given a guide to major religions, to assist their choices, but no attempt was made to steer them in a particular direction.

  8. #33
    A Cockless Wonder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    So, does this 'free will', or lack of it, mean that our lives are already destined? Does it mean that if time travel was possible then it would be bounded by our own lifespan? That is, we could jump forward or rewind within our life but would make exactly the same decisions regardless?
    The idea of time travel introduces a whole raft of other interesting questions.

    What is the nature of time and what is the relationship between quantum theory and reality

    We know quantum theory to be true since it makes very accurate predictions.

    The Copenhagen interpretation says that when 2 elements of the universe become entangled then the probability wave function of each element collapses and its position or momentum can be determined precisely

    However the many-worlds interpretation of quantum theory says that no such collapse occurs. Instead the universe splits and moves along parallel futures where all possible events are real but in parallel universes.

    The resulting aggregation of all possible histories of the universe is the Hilbert space of the universe and is unimaginably larger than the simple single time-path universe we experience.

    Equipped with my small monkey brain I am not really qualified to speculate on what time travel even means in the context of the ineffably large Hilbert space of all possible universes.

    The relationship between quantum theory and reality is probably worthy of a separate thread.

    These books are quite heavy going but helpful for small brained monkeys

    Something Deeply Hidden - Wikipedia

    From Eternity to Here - Wikipedia

  9. #34
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    ^ What I was suggesting was that if there was no free will and everything was based on cause and effect then time travel would not be possible, at least not time travel outside of a person's current lifespan. That is, time would be fixed, like a scale on a rule and one could only travel along that bounded scale.

    I didn't think I had added any concept of religion into my post.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    ^ What I was suggesting was that if there was no free will and everything was based on cause and effect then time travel would not be possible.
    According to Einstein’s theory of relativity time travel is factual. However only in one direction ie the future.
    The Astronauts on ISS return younger than they would have been were they to have remained on Earth. This is due to the high orbital speed of the spacecraft.

    This could only be measured in milliseconds however the faster and closer we get to light speed then the differences would be much more substantial.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    ^ What I was suggesting was that if there was no free will and everything was based on cause and effect then time travel would not be possible, at least not time travel outside of a person's current lifespan. That is, time would be fixed, like a scale on a rule and one could only travel along that bounded scale.

    I didn't think I had added any concept of religion into my post.
    And I didn’t think that lack of reality comes in to it either. Time travel indeed!

    Religious teachings and attitudes do change over generations, especially for the those who have the free will to choose.

    Science will always develop and test new theories, and is therefore subject to continual, linear change over time.

    Time travel is just too preposterous to be considered right now. Given the nature of this topic is already sufficiently complex, without introducing unproven strands like time travel?

    In future, possibly, but right now, it is just another of Looper’s red herrings.

  12. #37
    Thailand Expat DrWilly's Avatar
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    The late Steven Hawking suggested backwards time travel is not possible because if it were humans would have already traveled back to 'meet us'.

  13. #38
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    ^ Not possible outside the bounds of the inventor's lifespan. That is, time travel could be possible but not to a time before it was invented.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    if there was no free will and everything was based on cause and effect then time travel would not be possible, at least not time travel outside of a person's current lifespan
    How do you mean time travel outside a lifespan?

    What do you mean by 'you' travelling in time?

    'You' are a configuration of particles at a point in time 'q' that gives rise to the phenomenon of consciousness at a point in time 'q' with memories of past and imagination of the future.

    If 'you' go back in time from now to a time the past 'p' is the 'you' at the end of that time travelling journey back to 'p' the configuration of particles that existed before at time 'p' or is the 'you' at the end of the journey back to time 'p' the configuration of particles that exists now at time 'q' with memories of a past that has yet to unfold?

    If you are merely the you that previously existed at time 'p' then what is the causal driver that would make the history since time 'p' play out any differently on the 2nd run?

    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    Thus the success of the Eden Club.
    I hope you are not trying to throw the Three Body Problem in the mix Topper

    We are already juggling Free Will and Quantum Reality and we are only on page 2.

  15. #40
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    Putting aside time travel for a moment and back to free will.

    A very simple example, I want a cup of coffee but realise I am all out. I then realise that I can have a cup of tea instead or go to the local shop and buy more coffee.

    Regardless of the decision I make I fail to see how this would not be me exercising free will. I fail to see how the decision could somehow be pre-determined based upon my previous experiences etc.

  16. #41
    Thailand Expat Backspin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman123 View Post
    Putting aside time travel for a moment and back to free will.

    A very simple example, I want a cup of coffee but realise I am all out. I then realise that I can have a cup of tea instead or go to the local shop and buy more coffee.

    Regardless of the decision I make I fail to see how this would not be me exercising free will. I fail to see how the decision could somehow be pre-determined based upon my previous experiences etc.
    Do chickens have free will ? Say one wanted to peck at some grass but instead opted to take a few steps and eat the bug over there

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    Do chickens have free will ?
    I would like to run with Backspin's chicken example but bring it a little closer to home.

    I recently read 4 of Franz DeWaal's books on primatology. They are fascinating and highly recommended.

    He describes how chimps have highly evolved social senses.

    If you give a chimp a piece of cucumber it will eat it happily. But if it sees you giving a grape to a second chimp beforehand then it will throw the cucumber you offer it on the ground and adopt an angry facial expression.

    If you continue to offer the 2nd chimp grapes most 2nd chimps will eventually refuse the grape after several have been offered until the second chimp sees you offering the first chimp a grape too. In the experiment described the chimps were separated by some perspex so they could not share voluntarily. They are highly attuned to the sensitivities of their fellow chimps and seem to form a clear theory of mind about how other chimps are feeling.

    What is going on in the second chimp's head when he declines the grape until he sees the first chimp getting a grape?

    Is that a demonstration of free will in non-human animals?

    I would say it is at least as highly evolved as Iceman's journey to the 7-11 on his Honda Wave for a jar of coffee

  18. #43
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    Stuff yer p’s and q’s and time travel and chickens and chimps.

    This is about free will in humans. Nothing else.

    As Lily Tomlin once remarked, man chose to walk upright, thus freeing his hands for masturbation!

    That small step change in evolution, is almost as exciting as the development of opposable thumbs.

    Masturbation suits at least one of you involved in this topic!

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    This is about free will in humans. Nothing else.
    What about free will in Neanderthals or a Homo-Sapiens/Neanderthal half-breed?

    Or a human being with brain damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    Stuff yer p’s and q’s and time travel and chickens
    What about Thai chickenheads. Do they have free will?

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    Do chickens have free will ?
    Ask them. While you're at it, have a good sit-down with them and discuss your Malthusian geo-political constructs with them. Stay with them. Never leave.


    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    What about free will in Neanderthals or a Homo-Sapiens/Neanderthal half-breed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    Still humans, Loops.

  21. #46
    Thailand Expat Backspin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    Stuff yer p’s and q’s and time travel and chickens and chimps.

    This is about free will in humans. Nothing else.

    As Lily Tomlin once remarked, man chose to walk upright, thus freeing his hands for masturbation!

    That small step change in evolution, is almost as exciting as the development of opposable thumbs.

    Masturbation suits at least one of you involved in this topic!
    So there's something special about humans. Want to call that a soul or something ?

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    Want to call that a soul or something ?
    It's called Free Will.

    How is your Malthusian geo-political constructs discussion with chickens going?

  23. #48
    Thailand Expat Backspin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    It's called Free Will.

    ?
    Scientifically proven not to exist


  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    Scientifically proven not to exist
    I think you need to look into the meaning of the phrase scientifically proven.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    If you are merely the you that previously existed at time 'p' then what is the causal driver that would make the history since time 'p' play out any differently on the 2nd run?
    That's the point I was trying to make. If there was no 'free will' and everything was 'cause and effect' then everything would play out the same.

    You could go a step further and say that everything could have already happened and we are all just going along for the 'fixed' ride. Astrology could be fact after all...

    Anyway, going back to parallel universes, why would they exist if everything was cause and effect and there was no free will?

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