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  1. #1
    A Cockless Wonder
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    His Holiness The Pope of Rome

    Looks like we might be up for a new one if the Guardian is on the money...

    85 is knockin on the gates


    What might a Pope Francis retirement mean for the Catholic church?

    Almost a decade has passed since Pope Benedict XVI became the first pontiff for 600 years to retire rather than die in office.

    The idea of two popes – one serving and one emeritus – intrigued some and troubled others. It even became the subject of a highly fictionalised bromance movie, starring Anthony Hopkins and Jonathan Pryce.

    His Holiness The Pope of Rome-3072-jpg

    But three popes? That prospect was raised by Pope Francis last weekend when he told reporters on his return to Rome after a penitential visit to Canada that the “door is open” to his retirement. It would not be a catastrophe, he said.

    His comments, at the end of a testing six-day trip during which the Holy Father was seen using variously a wheelchair a walker and a cane, were not the first time Francis has hinted at retirement.

    Almost as soon as he was elected, in March 2013 at the age of 76, Francis began alluding to a time when he would no longer be pope – either because of death or retirement.

    His health – which has been a concern since he had a lung removed as a teenager – has deteriorated in recent years. He has sciatica, and last year he underwent major surgery to remove a section of his large intestine. It required six hours of general anaesthesia, which caused lasting side-effects, and a 10-day stay in hospital. That, he said, lay behind his reluctance to undergo further surgery to repair a strained ligament in his right knee, despite the near-constant pain it causes.

    The papal biographer Austen Ivereigh said: “From very soon after he was elected, Francis said that Pope Benedict’s resignation had changed the institution of the papacy and that all popes from now on would need to reflect on whether they should stand down for reasons of frailty.

    “Modern popes do a lot of gruelling and demanding travel. The extrovert nature of the contemporary papacy means endless meetings and crowd gatherings, and a certain level of fitness is required.

    “Plus modern medicine means you can carry on living in a frail state in a way that you couldn’t before. Being elected for life now needs to be understood as: so long as you have vitality.”

    On stepping down, Benedict took the title of pope emeritus. He has continued to wear the incumbent’s traditional white cassock, and lives within the Vatican at the Mater Ecclesiae monastery. Francis has already indicated that he would take the title of emeritus bishop of Rome, live quietly outside the Vatican, and eschew the papal white robes.

    A couple of weeks ago, in a television interview, Francis described his predecessor as “saintly and discreet”. But, he added: “In future, things should be delineated more, or things should be made more explicit.”

    The existence of two popes has not always been easy. Ivereigh said: “When the emeritus pontificate was created, effectively as a new institution, the fear was it would be confusing, it could act as a focus of opposition or contrast with the existing pope.

    “I don’t think Benedict himself has done anything to fuel that. But I think he’s allowed a kind of court around him. There have been many instances where the pope emeritus has effectively been manipulated in the service of traditionalist agendas. It creates a sense there is a rivalry.

    “Francis has been incredibly patient about this and it hasn’t appeared to have bothered him – but I think he’s very much taken note of it.”
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    In the short term, Francis is likely to further reduce foreign travel, although he has announced a visit to Kazakhstan in September and is keen to reschedule a trip to South Sudan that was postponed earlier this year on medical advice.

    A decision on retirement would come after deep reflection and discernment, and would probably wait until Benedict – now 95 and extremely frail – had died, said Ivereigh.

    “Every papal transition is traumatic. But Francis will know when the church needs fresh energy and renewal. He will find the right time.”

    What might a Pope Francis retirement mean for the Catholic church? | Pope Francis | The Guardian


    I loved that movie last year The Two Popes, referred to in the article

    A fictionalised bromance account of the transition to Francis 10 years ago.

    Anthony Hopkins played a blinder Benedict

    His Holiness The Pope of Rome-benedipumpi-jpg

    I am bored of all the meh bland Buddhas on offer for garden decorations too.

    I want to go hardcore for my new rock garden and get some Jesuses writhing in the passion under crowns of thorns and nailed to bloody crosses to really freak out visitors to the forest

    I will need to dig out Mels movie The Passion too. That was quite gory and confronting as I recall

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post

    Anthony Hopkins played a blinder Benedict

    His Holiness The Pope of Rome-benedipumpi-jpg


    There was a poster that used to go by this avatar.

  3. #3
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    What might a Pope Francis retirement mean for the Catholic church?
    A new paedophile takes over.

  4. #4
    En route
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    Who gives a fuck.

  5. #5
    A Cockless Wonder
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    ^Ungodly language

    Having gone through a 30 year phase of atheism I am slowly regaining a nostalgic fondness for the Roman Catholicism of my upbringing.

    Flogging religions for their lack of scientifically examinable veracity has become dull and obvious and seems to me to be missing the point.

    The legend and fantasy is the fun of the whole thing. We are evolved to believe in myths. They bind communities and lend credibility to the still controversial idea of Darwinian group selection.

    This is where the rich pageantry, iconography and mythology of Catholicism has the edge over austere and drab Protestantism.

    Religion is about building social capital by binding communities through mythological belief. The richer the mythology and pageantry the stronger the social glue.

    Anyway, for the next pope I hope they go for somebody more hardcore. Francis is a lovely fella but the previous ex-Nazi Dark Lord of the Sith was more edgy.

  6. #6
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    I don't really see the issue. The previous two Presidents of China are alive and well. They just keep their heads down and enjoy their life, or what's left of it. Of course if they tried to interfere with 'matters of state', they would mysteriously disappear. So it is with the Holy See.

  7. #7
    Thailand Expat DrWilly's Avatar
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    ^^ Atheism is not a phase. Perhaps you were just agnostic. You can’t unlearn knowledge.

  8. #8
    A Cockless Wonder
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    ^I would say I am a Catholic atheist just like Woody Allen is a Jewish atheist.

    Rationality, encompassing atheism, may be the foundation of modern moral progress.

    But religious belief is a manifestation of the emotional and irrational evolved nature of human psychology. Exercising the urges of our evolved emotional framework, in a measured way, is part of human psychological well-being.

    Our urges to treat our fellow humans well and to see ourselves as part of something transcending our individual selves is more rewarding when it comes from a sense of mystical spirituality than when it comes from a sense of dutiful rationality.

    We are apes, not machines.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Of course if they tried to interfere with 'matters of state', they would mysteriously disappear. So it is with the Holy See.
    Except it wouldn't be the same . . . but nice try

  10. #10
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    ^I would say I am a Catholic atheist just like Woody Allen is a Jewish atheist.
    Woody Allen's a paedophile too.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Woody Allen's a paedophile too.
    You’ve made 2 posts on this thread, both referencing paedophiles.
    This is not the subject at hand but begs the question of your unhealthy interest.
    Probably better to stop now Harry before assumptions become convictions

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Woody Allen's a paedophile too.
    Is he?

  13. #13
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    He was accused of it . . . it seems, looking at Harry's posts, mud sticks. Just like with priests - some were paedophiles, most weren't. The issue was not dealt with, even hidden. This does not make it a paedo organisation.

  14. #14
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman123 View Post
    You’ve made 2 posts on this thread, both referencing paedophiles.
    This is not the subject at hand but begs the question of your unhealthy interest.
    Probably better to stop now Harry before assumptions become convictions
    We're talking about the Catholic Church here.

    Paedophilia is an integral part of it.

  15. #15
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barty View Post
    Is he?
    Yes.

    Op-Ed: Dylan Farrow: Why has the #MeToo revolution spared Woody Allen? - Los Angeles Times

    And - surprise, surprise:

    HBO’s four-part docu-series Allen v. Farrow has been a haunting look at how a criminal trial can play out in the court of public opinion — sadly enough, the very thing Woody Allen’s defenders would claim is happening to him now. While Allen has never formally been charged with the sexual abuse of his then-7-year-old daughter Dylan Farrow, the series makes it clear that he was also definitively not cleared of suspicion, with a 1993 decision not to go to trial hinging upon Dylan’s mental health needs despite an attorney who found “probable cause” to prosecute Allen. Allen v. Farrow suggests Allen has been celebrated for so long not because of evidence that points towards his innocence, but because of his pre-existing reputation as a beloved filmmaker and his ability to convince media at the time of an alternate version of events. As the series finale airs, one last aspect of Allen’s life that didn’t make it to the doc does seem worth noting as one parses the truth of what happened: his long-standing friendship with convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein.

  16. #16
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    He was accused of it . . . it seems, looking at Harry's posts, mud sticks. Just like with priests - some were paedophiles, most weren't. The issue was not dealt with, even hidden. This does not make it a paedo organisation.
    Make yourself a cup of coffee. Or even two.

    Catholic Church sexual abuse cases by country - Wikipedia

    * Bear in mind this is only what has been reported and investigated.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    We're talking about the Catholic Church here.

    Paedophilia is an integral part of it.
    No there is another thread on Catholiscm where you are running rampant with your paedophilia comments/fantasies.

    Read this thread title and try to avoid any paedophile comments, it must have come to your attention that you are the only one making them.

    I can’t help but wonder why the subject of young children being abused is so interesting to you. Is there anything in your past you need to share?

  18. #18
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman123 View Post
    No there is another thread on Catholiscm where you are running rampant with your paedophilia comments/fantasies.

    Read this thread title and try to avoid any paedophile comments, it must have come to your attention that you are the only one making them.
    It's a thread about the chief paedo, so why should it not be discussed?

    I can’t help but wonder why the subject of young children being abused is so interesting to you. Is there anything in your past you need to share?
    I can't quite understand why you don't systemic paedophilia abhorrent, is there anything in your past you need to share?

  19. #19
    A Cockless Wonder
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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    Just like with priests - some were paedophiles, most weren't.
    I heard that the Catholic brother who was my Spanish teacher at school 40 years ago died recently. It was very sad news. He was a truly wonderful man. One of those rare teachers who radiate benevolence, good humour and strength of character and inspire kids to want to learn.

    It is a shame that all Catholic clergy and brothers have been tarred by association with the few bad apples as there were some real diamonds among them. He was told that, due to the allegations and investigations of abuse, and given his ordination, that he should not allow himself to be alone one on one with any children, even with his own nieces and nephews from his own family. It is a shame that it ends up being the good guys that pay the price.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    It is a shame that it ends up being the good guys that pay the price.
    I agree. It's also an easy target. I went to a boarding school run by Benedictine monks, my children all went/go to Catholic school, one to Catholic University in your neck of the woods - excellent educators.
    No-one, in their right mind, is being an apologist for the crimes by clergy and the church as a whole.



    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    he should not allow himself to be alone one on one with any children
    In NZ there is a complete lack of male teachers because of the stigma attached to males and children. Quite sad, really.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    ^I would say I am a Catholic atheist just like Woody Allen is a Jewish atheist.

    Rationality, encompassing atheism, may be the foundation of modern moral progress.

    But religious belief is a manifestation of the emotional and irrational evolved nature of human psychology. Exercising the urges of our evolved emotional framework, in a measured way, is part of human psychological well-being.

    Our urges to treat our fellow humans well and to see ourselves as part of something transcending our individual selves is more rewarding when it comes from a sense of mystical spirituality than when it comes from a sense of dutiful rationality.

    We are apes, not machines.
    I see no proble with the idea of Pontiff emeritus.
    Might save a lot of hanging around for smoke after the current pope snuffs it.

    On the subject of your beloved support for your church, it’s been around in various forms for centuries. The shiningly obvious basis for most versions of a fair, is simply to delineate good and bad. All the major faiths agree,
    Dont kill. Be a good person. Help others if you can.

    Those simple rules are all common to major faiths and form an excellent spirituality for the masses to follow.
    The differences beyond that commonality, is just window dressing in my opinion.

    Although I am an atheist, being a good person is key to any decent future for humanity. The window dressing just gets in the way of that.

    Faith differences will hopefully diminish over centuries, as more sentient humans become more self aware, and move toward the common good that all faiths currently share and support.

  22. #22
    A Cockless Wonder
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    33-day 'Smiling Pope' John Paul I beatified at the Vatican

    Pope John Paul I, who led the Roman Catholic Church for 33 days in 1978, has been beatified at the Vatican - the last step before sainthood.

    His Holiness The Pope of Rome-_126583680_gettyimages-515421174-jpg

    Thousands gathered in St Peter's square for the ceremony led by Pope Francis.

    Last year, Pope Francis credited the late Pope with the miracle cure of an Argentine girl. A second miracle is needed for the move to sainthood.

    Described as the "smiling Pope", John Paul I was the shortest-serving pope since 1605.

    John Paul I was born Albino Luciani, the son of a bricklayer in the Dolomite mountains in Italy.

    During his brief tenure, he defended the Roman Catholic Church's opposition to abortion and contraception but he also sought to reform institutions and root out corruption.

    How does someone become a saint?

    Pope Francis described the him as someone who "lived without compromise".

    John Paul I died of a heart attack on 28 September 1978.

    His death caused much controversy - and conspiracy theories - due to two slightly differing accounts.

    The Vatican said he was found dead by two nuns.

    Initially, however, it had said a priest had found him - uneasy with the fact that women had entered the Pope's private quarters.

    For an individual to be beatified, a miracle needs to be attributed to prayers made to them after their death.

    The miracle attributed to the now beatified Pope was the healing of an 11-year-old girl after her parents had prayed to Pope John Paul I.

    In the last 1,000 years, just eight popes have been made saints.

    33-day '''Smiling Pope''' John Paul I beatified at the Vatican - BBC News


    Without JP1 we would never have had the timeless witticism: What lasts longer a Pope or a wine-gum?

    If that is not deserving of beatification by itself then I do not know what is.

  23. #23
    Days Work Done! Norton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    Although I am an atheist, being a good person is key to any decent future for humanity. The window dressing just gets in the way of that.
    Yep. All boils down to one simple rule which sure as hell would make us a kinder, gentler species. Every religion has a form of the golden rule. Such as.

    Buddhism: “Whatever is disagreeable to yourself, do not do unto others"

  24. #24
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    ^ Doesn't quite work for BDSM Norts

  25. #25
    Days Work Done! Norton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malmomike77 View Post
    ^ Doesn't quite work for BDSM Norts
    Actually it does when you think about it.

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