Thread: His Holiness The Pope of Rome

Originally Posted by S Landreth

For the first time in modern history, a sitting pope will preside over his predecessor's funeral next week, with Pope Francis leading a "simple" ceremony for Benedict XVI, who died Saturday.

May not be the last however. Francis could resign before he dies as well.

^^I love the pagan Christmas tree!



I hope it is not one of those ones that has flashing coloured lights and plays electronic bleeping noise Christmas carols.

Not very stately for lying in state.




The pope of paradox: Reflecting on the complex legacy of Benedict XVI

Benedict XVI (1927–2022), the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, was one of the most important Catholics and religious leaders of the past century.

His life was one of accomplishment: over fifty books at the cutting edge of Catholic theology; five years as archbishop of his Bavarian homeland; nearly twenty-five years as Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith; and then his seven years and 317 tumultuous days as pontifex maximus (he would have preferred we express the title in Latin).

Benedict’s death will leave a doleful void in the Church’s self-consciousness and historical memory. He was one of the final participants in the Second Vatican Council to remain active in ecclesiastical life, the last man standing to have been created cardinal by Paul VI, and the last witness to the “double conclave” of 1978 which followed that pope’s demise.

Yet Benedict XVI was, above all, the pope of paradox. Known for years as “God’s Rottweiler”, he loved nothing better than to sit quietly at his piano playing Mozart. The quintessential conservative intellectual, he later proved a constitutional radicalist. Some called him the “Pope of Aesthetics” — and his red leather loafers once inspired Esquire Magazine to name him, unironically, as “Accessorizer of the Year”. But the man with such a keen eye for beauty proved utterly hopeless at managing image.

He really did believe in sweeping clean the Vatican’s Augean stables, but his pontificate never recovered either from media hostility or from scepticism about his sincerity to make the Church fully accountable for the sexual abuse of children by its clergy.

He believed in treating all of God’s children equally and compassionately — we are all sinners — and yet he alienated gay Christians with crass statements which linked sexual liberation to paedophilia.

He passionately sought to uncover truths about God and Christ, but lacked the deft political touch needed for effective ecumenism.

His relations with Jews and Muslims were mixed, to put it mildly. His 2006 lecture at the University of Regensburg, “Faith, Reason and the University — Memories and Reflections”, notoriously caused a fierce backlash from Islamic leaders.

Benedict’s defence was that his remarks had been misrepresented: he gave not his own opinion but was quoting from the Byzantine emperor Manuel II Palaeologus (who ruled between 1391 and 1425). Both this defence and its failure to shield Benedict from further criticism are instructive. It didn’t seem to have occurred to the gentle, cerebral scholar-pope that others might not share his purely intellectual engagement with ideas or that they might be willing to use words that came out of his mouth — even somebody else’s words — against him.

Once again, Benedict’s political acumen was deficient: he lacked both effective advisors skilled in the dirty games of realpolitik who could guide him, and the foresight to imagine how his words might be heard by a world far removed from the rarefied air of the university seminar.
Pope Benedict XVI at the University of Regensburg

So was Benedict’s problem mere naïveté, and his fate to be one of those clever people who sometimes say or do stupid things because they are too otherworldly? Benedict certainly brought a touch of Edward the Confessor to the papal office. But, as time went on, he increasingly also resembled a kind of Teutonic King Lear.

Like Lear, Benedict’s tragedy was to lack an understanding of the consequences of his demands and actions. It was also to find himself repeatedly let down by those around him — even his own butler. His defence against accusations that he had failed to act against known child abusers also typically involved the excuse that others had not brought the severity of the matter to his attention. That may have been true, but relying on such a truth was not a mark of leadership.

In fact, hypocrisy was the more serious charge which could have been levelled against Benedict — not only with respect to his handling of the sexual abuse scandal but also to that shameful moment earlier in his life when he became a member of the Hitler Youth.

Now, as an historian, I fully understand Benedict’s defence of his brush with the Hitlerjugend, as articulated by his brother. Like most young Germans at the time, he probably felt he had very little choice: membership was compulsory; he could scarcely have been aware of the full horrors of the Nazi regime; resistance was incredibly dangerous and would certainly have led to reprisals — not only against him but also against other members of his family (his father had already been demoted for opposing the Nazis).

In Benedict’s position, most of us would probably have acted as he did, with small, deniable acts of resistance rather than big brave ones that would have been tantamount to martyrdom. And yet, unlike Benedict, we have not spent a large part of our lives warning against the evils of moral relativism. As he put it in a 2005 address:

Today, a particularly insidious obstacle to the task of education is the massive presence in our society and culture of that relativism which, recognising nothing as definitive, leaves as the ultimate criterion only the self with its desires. And under the semblance of freedom it becomes a prison for each one, for it separates people from one another, locking each person into his or her own ego.

These words may be wise and insightful, they may truly hit upon one of the great problems facing societies around the world — especially in the post-Christian West — but they are not obviously consistent with the view that we should simply understand a pope’s participation in the Hitler Youth in the context of unfortunate circumstances and trying times.

The German law firm Westpfahl Spilker Wastl recently found in its report into historic abuses in the Munich archdiocese that Benedict had lied about not being present at a crucial meeting where the fate of an abuser priest was discussed. Again, Benedict trivialised inconsistencies between his testimony and other evidence as “editorial error” — a reasonable defence, indeed, unless you have previously denied the legitimacy of relativism.
Pope emeritus Benedict XVI and Pope Francis

Yet, flawed though Benedict may have been, his manner of departing the pontifical office on its own marks him out as one of the millennium’s most significant Holy Fathers. The question of whether a pope could abdicate had been a purely theoretical one since the Late Middle Ages. The 1917 and 1983 Codes of Canon Law may have anticipated it in their canons, but the last time it had actually occurred was 1415.

Debate about the legitimacy of papal resignations had been fierce throughout the Middle Ages. Many canonists thought them problematic because a pope who renounced his office could also be seen as repudiating God’s decision to choose him. Was he implying that God erred? And by what authority could a mere pope claim the right to set aside divine judgement?

Benedict’s actions would appear to have closed the door definitively on such questions. They have already established a new consensus in which a papal resignation has come to be seen as ordinary — possibly even a future norm. And that may have implications for how Catholics see the papacy going forward: if the papal office is a job like any other, what of the pope’s grander claims to be Christ’s vicar on earth or to be “infallible”?

Benedict’s papacy ushered in a new age for the Church as an institution — a paradox indeed for a man whose alarm at the direction the Second Vatican Council had taken led him to spend a life seeking solace in a deeper, purer ecclesiastical past.

Miles Pattenden is Senior Research Fellow in Medieval and Early Modern Studies in the Institute for Religion and Critical Inquiry at the Australian Catholic University.

Posted 31 Dec 2022
31 Dec 2022
updated 31 Dec 2022

https://www.abc .net.au/religion/pope-of-paradox-on-the-legacy-of-benedict-xvi/101815706

What he did as a priest or cardinal, I don't know.

But being forced into Hitler Jugend, was hardly a crime for a young boy.

Originally Posted by helge

What he did as a priest or cardinal, I don't know.

But being forced into Hitler Jugend, was hardly a crime for a young boy.

Yeah it's nothing against him. Just some fascinating history

That last one look like this:

^^1^st place 2022 bellend and ^2^nd place 2022 bellend. What a team

Wonder if they’ll release a final count?

Pope Benedict XVI: Thousands pay respects at the Vatican

Thousands of people have been paying their respects to former Pope Benedict XVI at his lying in state in the Vatican.

He died on New Year's Eve at the age of 95, almost a decade after he stood down because of ill health.

Pope Francis will preside over Thursday's funeral - the first time a Pope will be buried by his successor.

As dawn broke over the Vatican, a queue had already formed at the edge of St Peter's Square.

And Vatican police said some 40,000 people filed past his body in the first five hours, where a pair of Swiss Guards - the traditional papal bodyguards - stood watch.

At the very front was Father Alfredo Elnar, 30, from the Philippines. He said he had studied and admired the theological writings of the former pontiff, and spoke of an emptiness since his death.

A little further back, Sister Marianna Patricevic, a nun from Croatia, talked of how grateful she was for all the late pope had done - saying there was not a subject she studied at university where they did not discuss his views.

Father Richard Kunst, visiting from the US, said when he passes the Pope's body, he would pray for him - but also for a miracle to help a friend at home who is dying of cancer.

Benedict XVI became the first Pope to resign in 600 years in 2013, citing ailing health.

His body will be displayed for three days in an open casket at St Peter's Basilica, with people allowed to pay their respects until 7pm each evening.

Many of those who filed into the basilica on Monday made a sign of the cross or stopped to pray as they passed the former Pope's body - which has been displayed without papal insignia or regalia. Others took pictures on their mobile phones.

One man who had been inside, Mountain Butorac, said the experience was "beautiful" and "humbling".

The Catholic pilgrimage organiser was queueing to view the former Pope's body for a second time, this time with his family. He said the mood was "sombre" but "joyful".

He described Benedict as a "a very gentle" and "humble" man, who was like a "papal grandfather" to him.

Before the church was opened to the public, Italian President Sergio Mattarella and Prime Minister Georgia Meloni were among those who paid their respects.

The funeral will take place in St Peter's Square, before the Pope Emeritus is laid to rest in the tombs beneath the Basilica.

The Vatican released pictures of the body on Sunday, dressed in red papal mourning robes and wearing a gold-trimmed mitre.

Tributes have poured in from around the world, and the funeral is expected to draw crowds of thousands.

The last papal funeral, that of Pope John Paul II in 2005, was one of the largest Christian gatherings in history, and drew an estimated four million people to Rome.

Benedict asked that the funeral be marked by simplicity, Vatican spokesman Matteo Bruni told journalists.

Details of the guest list have not been released, but the Vatican has said that it will include delegations from Italy and Benedict's native Germany.

Pope Francis paid tribute to his "dearest" predecessor after his death.

US President Joe Biden lauded the former Pope's "lifetime of devotion to the Church", while Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni hailed him as "a great man whom history will not forget".

In Brazil - the largest Catholic nation in the world - incoming President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva said he wished "comfort to the faithful and admirers of the Holy Father".

Pope Benedict was a controversial figure, and some have criticised him for failing to tackle allegations of clerical sexual abuse.

^ Are Holly and Phil in the queue?

Originally Posted by VocalNeal

^ Are Holly and Phil in the queue?

Nah, they sneaked in the back door.

Originally Posted by VocalNeal

^ Are Holly and Phil in the queue?

did you see them in any of the videos above?

Originally Posted by Looper

It was a truly moving show in the end and the contrarian young pope was redeemed in a way that felt spiritually uplifting. It was so good I think I might watch the whole thing again from the start before going onto the the 2020 show The New Pope

We need a pope with style to shake the dust of the church

Thanks for the recommendation. I'm looking for a new tv series to watch.

Originally Posted by tomcat

...and act the same, and live the same, and marry the same, and despise the same and shun the same...until death removes the affliction...it seems certain religious folks believe that god has told them to persistently poke their noses into the business of others and provoke a little mayhem

True. My mom put a manger under the tree and was talking about Christ's birthday on Christmas, which kind of made me laugh because after her divorce way back when over 30 years ago she was shunned by the church and never went to church. lol. People brought up in a strict catholic home never forget.

40,000 Catholics flock to see Pope Benedict XVI in just five hours at St Peter's Basilica

65,000 Catholics flock to see Pope Benedict XVI lying in state in one day - double the expected number - as mourners continue to file through St Peter's Basilica in the Vatican

The Vatican was flooded with tens of thousands more mourners than anticipated yesterday, with 65,000 paying their respects to the late Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI - more than expected.

As Monday marked the start of the three-day public viewing of Pope Benedict, mourners gathered to pay their tributes before his 'simple' funeral at the Vatican on Thursday.

On Sunday night, Vatican police had estimated that 25,000 to 30,000 would visit him lying in state throughout the day at St Peter's Basilica.

But just over five hours after the doors opened, it was estimated that 65,000 people had visited the body, with a queue snaking around St Peter's Square by mid-morning.

And it continues

Originally Posted by Looper

That's cardinals for you

Couldn't organise an orgy in a brothel

I hope not. Quite a few Thai monks might be able to do that though.

I think it's a good idea for Popes (and monarchs) to be able to retire.

^I think so too.

I think after 70 or 80 (depends on the person), the strength doesn't remain the same (whether physical, mental, etc). There's also (probably) less drive to achieve, do good, change things, etc.

Re: monarchs, I think it was good that the queen of the Netherlands retired some years ago & her son was able to take up the reins.

The Queen of Denmark at 82 still looks strong, though.

*****
Re: Pope Benedict XVI, may he rest in peace. I wasn't much of a fan. I don't know much about him but he didn't seem very charismatic. However, I think he was a good transition pope - in between Pope John Paul II and Pope Francis.

Originally Posted by katie23

I thi.
.
. I wasn't much of a fan. I don't know much about him but he didn't seem very charismatic. .

Of course not. He was German.

Should be an interesting book.

Benedict aide's tell-all book will expose 'dark maneuvers' | National Post

Gaenswein referrs to the struggles, scandals and problems Benedict faced during his eight-year pontificate, recalling he had asked for prayers at the start to protect him from the 'wolves' who were out to get him

Why do they call him the Pope of Rome, when the Vatican is a separate state to Italy?

The Pope was Bishop of Rome, when I went to school.

^^Pope is not an official title

I had to look it up……

The pope's proper title, according to the Vatican's website, is Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the State of Vatican City, Servant of the Servants of God.

What, they put a damn foreigner in charge of the church in the Italian capitol? Well I never.

Set your alarm. The Mass will start at 3:30 pm Thai time

• Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's Funeral: What to Expect

Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI is set to have his funeral on Thursday morning at 9:30 a.m. (CET). He died in Vatican City on Dec. 31 at the age of 95.

Benedict XVI’s body was transferred to St. Peter’s Basilica on Monday, where it will remain for the lying in state through Jan. 4. Hundreds of thousands have already visited and viewing is open until 7 p.m. Wednesday.

Pope Benedict XVI’s passing comes after 10 years in papal retirement, during which he lived at the Mater Ecclesiae Monastery in the Vatican Gardens. The pope emeritus was the first pope in 600 years to resign from office in February 2013, saying that he had to acknowledge his “incapacity to adequately fulfill the ministry entrusted” to him.

Here’s what to know about his funeral.

Where and when is his funeral?

Pope Benedict will be interred in a traditional cypress casket, and then carried into St. Peter’s Square on Thursday at 8:45 a.m., for the recital of the rosary about 45 minutes before the mass.

Pope Francis will preside over the funeral mass, though Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re will be the main celebrant at the altar.

Live streams of the funeral will be available on the Vatican’s Youtube Channel.

Who is expected to attend?

More than 60,000 people are expected to attend the funeral.

Delegations representing Germany (Benedict’s home country) and Italy were invited to attend the funeral, per a statement from the Holy See Press Office.

King Philippe and Queen Mathilde of Belgium confirmed they will attend the ceremony. As did Queen Sofia of Spain, who is going in representation of her son, King Felipe. Other heads of state, including the presidents of Poland, Germany and Hungary are also expected to attend, according to the Catholic News Agency.

Joe Donnelly, U.S. ambassador to the Holy See, will also be present, in a decision that White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre said was in line with the wishes of the late Pope and the Vatican.

Cardinals and archbishops from several countries will also be expected to attend.

What to expect from the service

Vatican spokesperson Matteo Bruni told the press that the funeral service will be simple to honor the wishes of Pope Benedict.

And since Benedict XVI was not the reigning pope at the time of his death, there will be some changes to his memorial service. Most significantly, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) reports, two final prayers from the diocese of Rome and the Eastern rite churches will not be recited because these are specifically meant to honor a presiding pope.

“The liturgical celebration follows the model of a funeral service for a supreme pontiff,” Bruni told the press on Tuesday. New elements to the funeral will instead be added to give the ceremony ‘its originality.’”

The first reading, for instance, will be from the Book of Isaiah, instead of a passage from the Acts of Apostles, as it was at St. John Paul II’s funeral. The second reading will also be distinct, with a passage from the first letter of St. Peter that discusses the eternal life promised to God’s children.

Following the mass, Benedict’s casket will be sealed and wrapped with ribbons before it is placed into two more caskets of zinc and wood, per the USCCB.

Where is he being buried?

Pope Benedict XVI will be buried in Pope John Paul’s II first tomb, which is less than 100 feet from the Tomb of St. Peter. (John Paul II was moved to a chapel in the basilica in 2011 after he was beatified).

A “rogito,” or one-page scroll accounting the highlights of Benedict’s papacy will be placed into a metal cylinder and into his coffin for burial, along with medals, palliums and Vatican coins minted during his reign, according to the USCCB..

The final moments of Benedict XVI’s burial will be done in private.

Originally Posted by S Landreth

Set your alarm. The Mass will start at 3:30 pm Thai time

Why?

Benedict ended up giving Her Maj a run for her money in the lying in state sweep-stakes...


Pope Benedict XVI: Around 200,000 attend lying in state

Almost 200,000 people paid homage to former Pope Benedict XVI during his lying in state over the last three days, the Vatican says.

His body has been sealed in a coffin ahead of his funeral on Thursday.

Pope Francis will preside over the funeral - the first time a sitting Pope has led his predecessor's funeral in over 220 years, the Vatican says.

The former Pope died on New Year's Eve at the age of 95, almost a decade after standing down because of ill-health.

Tens of thousands of people are expected to attend the funeral in St Peter's Square, in front of St Peter's Basilica, at 9:30 local time (8:30 GMT).

The event will be marked by simplicity, in line with what Benedict had asked for, the Vatican says.
Media caption,

Watch: Pope Francis expresses thanks for the life and service of Benedict XVI

Because Benedict was no longer a head of state when he died, only official delegations from Italy and Benedict's native Germany will attend.

Other leaders will be there in unofficial capacities - including King Philippe of Belgium and Queen Letizia of Spain, as well as the leaders of Poland and Hungary, the Catholic news agency reports.

The Pope Emeritus will be laid to rest in the tombs beneath the Basilica - where more than 90 pontiffs are buried - according to his final wishes.

Before being laid in the crypt, his body will be sealed in a zinc coffin, which will then be put in a wooden case. Items symbolising his time in the papacy will also be placed alongside his body.

A day of national mourning has been declared in Portugal, while in Italy flags will be flown at half-mast on public buildings throughout the country.

Church bells will ring at 11:00 in Germany (10:00 GMT) to commemorate the German-born former Pope's memory.
line
Pope Benedict was a powerful presence
Analysis by Aleem Maqbool, BBC religion editor

In 2013, Benedict became the first Pope in more than 600 years to step down.

But he was still a "powerful presence" in the Vatican after his retirement, according to the most senior British figure there, Archbishop Paul Gallagher.

Observers of Vatican affairs suggest that whether Benedict courted it or not, he became something of a lightning rod for internal criticism of Pope Francis.

"Obviously there have been, in the Church, people who have looked to Benedict to contrast certain decisions that have been made by Pope Francis," Archbishop Gallagher told the BBC. But he added that the two pontiffs had had an excellent relationship.

Archbishop Gallagher, the Vatican's foreign secretary, also acknowledged that events of the past week had changed the equation to potentially allow Pope Francis to consider his own retirement more freely.

"If we had three Popes, that would be a little bit difficult to manage. But now that Pope Benedict has gone to the Lord, I think that Pope Francis will stick to those principles that he has established - that he will continue in this ministry as long as he believes that he is capable," he said, adding that he did not think a decision about stepping down was in any way imminent.

Read Aleem's report in full.
line

During the past three days of lying in state, mourners travelled from all over the world to pay their respects to the former Pope.

One Catholic pilgrimage organiser who travelled to Rome with his family to pay his respects described the experience of entering the basilica as "beautiful" and "humbling".

Speaking to the BBC, Mountain Butorac described Benedict as a "very gentle" and "humble" man, who had been like a "papal grandfather" to him.

Other mourners paid their respects in their own countries, such as at this Mass in the Dominican Republic

Another mourner, Father Callistus Kahale Kabindama, a priest from Zambia, told Reuters news agency Benedict had been "a great Pope, a marvellous Pope".

But Benedict was a controversial figure who was criticised by some for failing to adequately tackle allegations of clerical sexual abuse.

Pope Benedict XVI: Around 200,000 attend lying in state - BBC News

Originally Posted by Looper

Pope Benedict XVI: Around 200,000 attend lying in state

Almost 200,000 people paid homage to former Pope Benedict XVI during his lying in state over the last three days, the Vatican says.

They did put on a good show