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  1. #51
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    That would be a cataclysm!
    Got GOLD?

  2. #52
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    Nope. Don't much believe in the stuff.

  3. #53
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    Evergrande: Shares in cash-strapped China property giant plunge

    Evergrande: Shares in cash-strapped China property giant plunge - BBC News

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shutree View Post
    Evergrande: Shares in cash-strapped China property giant plunge

    Evergrande: Shares in cash-strapped China property giant plunge - BBC News

    I'd really like to see a good wipeout for a change. There hasn't been a banking crisis in any major country since 2008.

    I hope this one lives up to the hype. It does have potential. But there's been a lot of these over the years that just peter out.


  5. #55
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    This is a bit of a long read.
    The bit that caught my eye was about the scale of the Evergrande debt being Publicly acknowledged debt is $300 bln. That is 2.4X the $123.8 bln cost of the bailout of the savings and loan industry to the U.S. government in 1998-99.


    What Would A Restructuring Of Evergrande Look Like?
    Anne Stevenson-YangContributor
    Hedge Funds & Private Equity
    I find and expose fraud in the public markets at J Capital Research.

    It looks like Evergrande, the great-grandaddy of China’s property bubble, is finally going to collapse. What will that look like?

    The short answer is that investors, lenders, and apartment owners lose. Insiders win. China’s financial system remains standing. Governments at every level ramp up repression.

    Evergrande is now swirling the drain, and the world is waiting for it to go down. The share price of the parent, 3333 HK, is down 76% from where it started the year. In August, Xu Jiayin, Evergrande’s founder and one of China’s wealthiest men, stepped down as chairman of the property group. Trading in the company’s bonds has been suspended in Shanghai. Police descended on Evergrande’s office building in Shenzhen Monday when individual investors in the company’s myriad “wealth-management” products gathered to demand repayment.

    There are two things that make this company’s distress extremely dangerous to the Chinese government: its scale and its effect on Chinese individuals who thought they had bought a ticket to the middle class. Confidence in the government’s wisdom and ability to guide Chinese families to a future of prosperity and a belief that investment in property and property-based assets could not fail must both take an unrecoverable hit.

    First, scale. Publicly acknowledged debt is $300 bln. That is 2.4X the $123.8 bln cost of the bailout of the savings and loan industry to the U.S. government in 1998-99 and twice the $169 bln direct cost of the 2000-2001 Chinese bank bailout, both of which had enormous consequences for their respective economies.

    Second, number of people affected. Evergrande is essentially a Ponzi, collecting cash from the pre-sale of an ever-growing number of apartments, plus hundreds of thousands of individual investors, and using the cash to fund further sales by accelerating construction in progress and funding down-payments. Like any Ponzi, this works as long as it’s accelerating. But inevitable for every Ponzi is the same endgame.When the market slows, those incoming streams of cash start to fall behind the growing arc of cash demands. Evergrande now has about 800 unfinished projects, and there are about 1.2 million people waiting to move in, according to press reports.

    But worse than that, front-loaded purchase of residential property in China long ago became a pure financial investment. In the late 1990s, private real estate became a reality, as state-owned companies offloaded their residential assets to their employees. Urbanization was increasing, and a substantial number of urban nouveau-riche property traders emerged in the young, buoyant market.

    But by the time of the global financial crisis, the oversupply was evident, and there was little if any real market support for the annual claims of ever-ascending value. So for well over a decade, Evergrande apartments have been viewed as a repository of value, a sort of savings bond made of steel and cement. Apartments in China are the investment vehicle of choice for people aspiring to the middle class who—with good reason—do not trust the banks.

    Few buyers purchase an Evergrande apartment as their primary residence. And Evergrande has explicitly catered to these people, choosing locations that fall just outside of areas that restrict the number of units a person may buy and advertising the developments as second homes. All over China, salesclerks and factory workers are sitting on empty Evergrande apartments and dreaming of selling them at a big mark-up to fund their children’s study abroad or their own retirement.

    Personally, despite 25 years living there, the greatest public outrage I have seen in China is not over random arrest and abuse, bribery, shakedowns, or even traffic accidents: it is over property values. Hell has no fury like that of Chinese investors who have lost money in Evergrande loan derivatives or apartments that have declined in value. Indeed, WeChat and TikTok are filled with videos—posted faster than they can be deleted—of protests at Evergrande offices. Evergrande reportedly told employees in Shenyang, Liaoning to work from home to avoid the protests.

    To cauterize the bleeding, the Chinese government is likely to force a restructuring. What will that look like?

    Let’s look at some historical cases. First, the bailout of wealth-management products or WMPs, the Chinese version of mortgage-backed securities, the financial sausage casings that banks and brokers stuff with mortgage loans, equity and bond derivatives, private equity investments, and all sorts of other financial products. These are the vehicles through which the Chinese public has invested in Evergrande. And they clearly are not paying out even on principal, much less return.

    The last publicly disclosed WMP bailout was in 2014, when a consortium of banks was required to refinance the roughly $500 million hole left by the default of the Credit Equals Gold WMP, which had been used to fund a dead coal company. The original trust behind the product got its money back. Losses were absorbed by the banks. After that, Chinese bank regulators threw a snit fit and tried to force banks to reduce their off-balance-sheet exposure—which by some accounts had reached around 90% of GDP. The new regulations forced a number of bank mergers and saw many small regional banks quietly go bust. But in many cases, the banks have reacted as banks do, by recategorizing but not necessarily reducing their off-balance-sheet obligations. This may be part of what’s behind the government’s determination to gut Ant Financial.

    A few restructuring cases:

    1. Kaisa Group: This developer defaulted on about $2.5 billion in bonds in 2015 and was accused of fabricating financial reports that claimed a big cash balance. In the restructuring deal, neither the founder’s family’s 49% nor the 30% of shares owned by Sino Life were diluted. Bondholders received a choice of a deep haircut or refinancing with high-yield bonds. Local governments, though their property arms, quietly took over many of the projects.

    2. Dalian Wanda: This developer restructured in 2017 by selling assets in the U.S., Europe, and Australia, including the AMC theater chain and the Spanish football club Atletico Madrid. In 2021, Wanda was still struggling to pay off $56 bln in debt. Forbes in 2013 rated founder Wang Jianlin as the richest man in China. He is still worth nearly $15 bln.

    3. HNA Group: The Chinese government forced a consolidation of this company’s hundreds of affiliates, leading to widespread defaults by HNA affiliates like Bohai Leasing, the Irish company Avolon Holdings, and Hainan Airline Holdings. A Chinese bankruptcy court said that 67,400 creditors had filed ¥1.2 trillion of claims. Losers have included shareholders of Hilton Grand Vacations (HGV HGV -0.9%), Temasek (shares in Hainan Airlines), shareholders in Park Hotels and Resorts (PK), but not, as far as we can tell, owners of HNA Group.
    Wanda Theme Park. Harbin Wanda Cultural Tourism City opens on Jun. 30, 2017, in the city of Harbin in north-eastern China. With a 20 million yuan investment, it features attractions, most notably the word's largest indoor ski resort, Wanda Snow Park which

    Message:

    1. Non-core and especially overseas assets will be hived off and sold at whatever the market will bear.

    2. Public market investors will lose out.

    3. Chinese individual investors in Evergrande’s wealth management products and empty apartments will lose their shirts. When they object, they will be silenced.

    4. Unfinished developments will become the responsibility of local governments.

    5. Evergrande founder Xu Jiayin will remain very wealthy until domestic protests reach a crescendo requiring that heads roll. Then he will either go to jail or remain a fugitive overseas.

    The end of the dream that ever-rising property values will bring prosperity to the average family in China is a politically combustible phenomenon, yet Evergrande is of a scale that indicates it cannot be completely bailed out and debts hidden. As owners of the apartments and the debt come out into the streets, rubbing their eyes, everyone should steel themselves for brutal repression.

    We read two things in the pattern of resolutions in the cases we have cited and in several others, especially from the fact that founders come out better than institutional and private investors, onshore and offshore.

    First, by the letter of the law and what basic audit procedures would reveal, these companies were all given substantial passes for their practices and their actual financial disclosures. That suggests an unusual level of regulator tolerance, and that in turn suggests that there are non-transparent claims on the reported (and protected) wealth of the founders and key executives.

    Second, the losses suffered by a large number of urban families in contrast to the protection of the actual engineers of these schemes may be reaching a rising level of social and political risk that is contributing to Xi Jinping's widely promoted campaign to redistribute the wealth of China's most visible tycoons. If that is the case, we can reasonably expect an expansion of new impacts and constraints on the wealthy, such as asset and heavy income taxes, and a contraction of wealth-building opportunities in the financialized parts of China's economy, those parts that from the beginning of reform were declared temporary use of capitalist tools to jumpstart growth.

    That Evergrande turned out not to be ever grand may be its most significant impact on China's reforms in progress.

    What Would A Restructuring Of Evergrande Look Like?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    I hope this one lives up to the hype. It does have potential.
    I'm hoping they sell off their properties in Vancouver to cover their losses. I can't wait for the bubble to pop.

  7. #57
    Thailand Expat David48atTD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shutree View Post
    This is a bit of a long read.

    That Evergrande turned out not to be ever grand may be its most significant impact on China's reforms in progress.

    What Would A Restructuring Of Evergrande Look Like?
    Good find Mate

  8. #58
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    Sort of related (and we probably don't need another China Thread) ...


    Casino stocks tumble as China eyes Macau

    US casino stocks plummeted in response to Beijing setting its sights on the gambling industry in Macau.
    Las Vegas Sands Corp slumped to more than a year low. Wynn Resorts dropped 8 per cent and MGM Resorts International fell 5 per cent.

    In Hong Kong, shares of Macau casino operators shed as much as a third of their value, losing about $18 billion.
    The slump came after Lei Wai Nong, Macau's secretary for economy and finance, gave notice of a 45-day consultation period on the gambling industry.

    Beijing is increasingly wary of Macau's acute reliance on gambling. It follows crackdowns in China on tech industries and tutoring services.

    "Margins will be crushed at the gambling capital of the world and that will drag down all the big casinos," said senior market analyst at OANDA Edward Moya.

    Here
    Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago ...


  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by David48atTD View Post
    In Hong Kong, shares of Macau casino operators shed as much as a third of their value, losing about $18 billion.
    The slump came after Lei Wai Nong, Macau's secretary for economy and finance, gave notice of a 45-day consultation period on the gambling industry.
    A bit of a sidestep but this is still about property-related China businesses.

    One thing that has already happened is that the DICJ, the enforcement arm of the government, has doubled its headcount this year, even as the casino industry shrank. This clearly suggests that the government plans to be a lot more hands-on.
    Then there are the indications that the Remnimbi could become an official currency in Macau, alongside the Pataca.
    It would not surprise me to see the industry return to the originally planned three licensed operators. Assuming they would include SJM and Galaxy that doesn't leave a lot of space for Melco, Sands and Wynne. If I were braver and richer I'd be buying Galaxy shares at this point.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by David48atTD View Post
    Beijing is increasingly wary of Macau's acute reliance on gambling.
    Incredible . . . they're quick learners

  11. #61
    Thailand Expat misskit's Avatar
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    Can’t find the full article but the title says plenty!

    Evergrande employees in China held hostage as worried investors demand payments

    BEIJING - Footage of Evergrande's management being held hostage in company offices by anxious retail investors made the rounds on China's social media earlier this week.


    "I have with me Nanchang's top Evergrande representative surnamed Chen," said WeChat user Yang Qiwen, referring to the city in Jiangxi province in south-eastern China. The posting included a photo of a man lying on a floor.


    Evergrande employees in China held hostage as worried investors demand payments, Companies & Markets News & Top Stories - The Straits Times

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    China Evergrande is not 'too big to fail', says Global Times editor

    HONG KONG, Sept 17 (Reuters) - The editor-in-chief of state-backed Chinese newspaper Global Times warned debt-ridden property giant Evergrande Group (3333.HK) that it should not bet on a government bailout on the assumption that it is "too big to fail".

    It was the first commentary to appear in state-backed media casting doubt on a government bailout for the country's No.2 property developer, whose shares fell on Friday for the fifth consecutive day amid concerns it is heading for default.

    Evergrande is scrambling to raise funds to pay its many lenders and suppliers and investors, with regulators warning its $305 billion of liabilities could spark broader risks to the country's financial system if not stabilised. read more

    Global Times' editor-in-chief Hu Xijin said on his WeChat social media account on Thursday that Evergrande should turn to the market for salvation, not the government.

    He said Evergrande's potential bankruptcy was unlikely to trigger a systemic financial storm like the collapse of Lehman Brothers, because it was a real estate business not a bank and downpayment ratios on property in China were very high.

    Global Times is a nationalistic tabloid published by the Communist Party's People's Daily. Its views do not necessarily reflect the official thinking of policymakers.

    Policymakers are telling Evergrande's major lenders to extend interest payments or rollover loans, and market watchers increasingly think a direct bailout from the government is unlikely.

    China Evergrande is not '''too big to fail''', says Global Times editor | Reuters

  13. #63
    Thailand Expat Backspin's Avatar
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    So far fuck all

  14. #64
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    As China's property giant Evergrande veers toward collapse, its unpaid debts spark protests


    They came from all over the country, dragging cheap suitcases and clutching file folders filled with records, chanting in front of the glassy skyscraper: “Evergrande, pay up!”


    They were the owners of small lighting and plumbing and construction materials companies, suppliers for Evergrande, one of China’s largest property developers — now staggering under more than $300 billion in debt and facing potential collapse.


    Dozens of protesters were gathering daily here in recent days at Evergrande headquarters. Most were contractors who’d accepted commercial papers — a sort of IOU — as payment for projects, but now found Evergrande unable to pay when those IOUs came due.


    “They say: We have no money. Do whatever you like,” said Li Gexin, the manager of a janitorial company in Qingdao. It had 200 workers who’d cleaned Evergrande’s sales offices for a year and were owed more than $300,000 in commercial papers.


    “If we don’t get the money, we can’t eat,” said Li, who’d driven for 24 hours to the Shenzhen headquarters. They needed that money to feed their families, send kids to school, buy medicine for elderly people, and pay their own mortgages — to live, he said. Dozens of other suppliers gathered around, relating similar woes.


    Legions of police bearing riot shields stood nearby. Some walked through the crowds with banners that read “Gathering Evidence,” and took photos of each person’s face.

    The distress surrounding Evergrande’s crash is a window into the problem of bad debt in China’s housing sector. Property giants like Evergrande have boomed in the last few decades on a model of vast borrowing and fast expansion, relying on cash flows from apartments it would someday build to construct apartments it had already sold.


    That worked as long as they could keep getting new loans for new projects, even as housing demand declined. But in August 2020, government regulators laid down new rules about how much debt developers could take on.


    After a year of struggling to reduce its liabilities amid declining sales, Evergrande admitted in public statements this month that it may not be able to repay its debts. Credit ratings agencies Fitch, Moody’s and S&P downgraded Evergrande to levels indicating “in or very near default.” Its stock value has dropped 80% this year, and it has an estimated 1.4 million more homes that it’s already sold but not yet built.


    Although the government is likely to step in to limit the fallout, “Evergrande’s collapse would be the biggest test that China’s financial system has faced in years,” said Mark Williams, chief Asia economist for Capital Economics, in an analysis this month.


    It would hurt not only the developer’s creditors and investors, but also all those who bought unfinished homes, put their savings in Evergrande’s wealth management products, or were among its contractors and subcontractors paid in IOUs.


    Some of these suppliers had put up their own homes as collateral in loans to cover their work for Evergrande, confident that “such a big company” could not possibly fail to pay. Now they are under pressure from both the banks and their workers.


    The entire construction supply chain had been using Evergrande IOUs instead of cash for years, said Cai, a supplier from Wenzhou who asked to be identified only by her last name.


    When Evergrande was late paying the July commercial papers, she assumed that if the project she’d worked on was in trouble, the company would be able to transfer money from another Evergrande project.


    “We thought, it couldn’t be that all their projects in the whole country are out of money. It’s not realistic, right?” she said. But suddenly no one wanted Evergrande’s IOUs anymore. They’d become “worthless pieces of paper,” she said. “Then we panicked.”


    At the headquarters, police herded protesters toward a cafeteria on the fifth floor of a nearby building. There, Evergrande staff sat scattered at orange plastic tables labeled with the name of each province. Suppliers were encouraged to register their complaints with the staff, then promised that they could receive Evergrande properties — unsold apartments, commercial storefronts, or parking spaces — at a discount to offset what the company owed them.


    Chen Xiaowang, the owner of a lighting company and electronics company in Wenzhou, sat at the Shaanxi province table. Evergrande’s Xi’an branch owed him more than $200,000 he said. He’d already had to lay off half his workers. The other day the staff here told him he could get parking spots in Xi’an, but when he called the office there, they said they had not received instructions on that from their superiors.


    A few hours later, he’d received a call from the local police in Wenzhou, he said, showing The Times the call records. They told him to go home and stop “making trouble” in Shenzhen.


    “This isn’t the right way to do things,” Chen said.


    Outside, several women sat against the wall on suitcases and pieces of cardboard. They had been here for four days, staying in low-budget hostels and eating one bowl of noodles per day.

    Even if the parking spots and shop spaces were real, one of the women said, no one wanted them. Her name was Li, and she’d supplied decorative materials for Evergrande in Anhui province. They owed her more than $1 million, she said.


    “We have four parking spots from Evergrande already,” Li said.


    Another woman, a construction manager from Shandong who asked that her name not be used, agreed. She was owed more than $300,000 and had dozens of migrant workers waiting for payment at home. “I owe this worker $1,500 and that worker $750. Should I give each of them a brick? A toilet? A room?”


    Analysts expect that Chinese authorities will move to limit the damage to the economy if Evergrande defaults. The potential for social and financial instability would be too high at a time when the Communist Party is preparing for Xi Jinping’s transition to his third term next year.


    “The most likely endgame is now a managed restructuring in which other developers take over Evergrande’s uncompleted projects in exchange for a share of its land bank,” and in which China’s central bank steps in with liquidity support, said Williams. Homebuyers would likely be prioritized in that scenario, he said.


    It’s less clear what would happen to the people who came seeking their money in Shenzhen.


    “They sacrifice one group of people in order to save the majority,” said Ye Hong, 55, a clothing exporter from Ningbo who had invested his retirement savings of nearly $800,000 in Evergrande’s now-frozen wealth management products.


    Ye had come to Shenzhen for the first time in his life hoping to get his investment back. But after trying to negotiate, seeing the police everywhere and hearing how much the others were owed, he wasn’t hopeful.


    “I just trusted them too much,” he said.


    As China's property giant Evergrande veers toward collapse, its unpaid debts spark protests

  15. #65
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    So what is the simple version of exactly what went wrong ?

    How could a company which should have been making money hand over fist actually be in this position ?

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Latindancer View Post
    So what is the simple version of exactly what went wrong ?

    How could a company which should have been making money hand over fist actually be in this position ?
    They borrowed too much.

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    WOW ... this beats any dominoes game I've played!


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    Hong Kong’s Hang Seng index drops 4% as Evergrande shares plunge nearly 17%, other property stocks fall

    Key Points

    • Hong Kong’s Hang Seng index led losses in Monday trade, with shares of embattled Chinese developer China Evergrande Group continuing to drop.
    • The Hang Seng Properties index declined nearly 7%, dropping to a 52-week low.
    • Markets in mainland China, Japan and South Korea are closed on Monday for holidays.


    SINGAPORE — Hong Kong’s Hang Seng index led losses among Asia-Pacific markets in Monday trade, with shares of embattled Chinese developer China Evergrande Group continuing to drop.

    The Hang Seng index dropped 4.11% in Monday trade. Shares of China Evergrande Group in the city plummeted almost 17%. The Hang Seng Properties index also dropped to a 52-week low, last trading nearly 7% lower.

    Shares of insurers listed in the city also plunged, with AIA dropping about 6% while Ping An Insurance fell nearly 8%.
    The S&P/ASX 200 in Australia fell 2.09%, with shares of major miners declining: Rio Tinto dropped 4.55%, Fortescue Metals Group declined 5.44% while BHP slipped 4.55%.

    MSCI’s broadest index of Asia-Pacific shares outside Japan fell 1.99%.

    Markets in mainland China, Japan and South Korea are closed on Monday for holidays.


    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/20/asia...-holidays.html

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    Evergrande collapse could have a ‘domino effect’ on China’s property sector, AllianceBernstein says

    China’s ‘Lehman moment’?

    Some economists have warned that the collapse of Evergrande could become China’s “Lehman moment” – a reference to the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers as a result of the subprime mortgage crisis, which triggered the 2008 global financial crisis.

    Evergrande debt: collapse could have domino effect on China properties

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    FOREX-Evergrande jitters pull risk FX lower, dollar gains on safety bid

    LONDON, Sept 20 (Reuters) - The offshore Chinese yuan skidded to three-week lows on Monday, dragging down other risk and commodity currencies as worries about property developer Evergrande's solvency spooked financial markets, while the safe-haven dollar rose


    Only on Friday, the yuan hit its highest level in three months at 6.4297 per dollar. The sharp slump in the currency on Monday came on the back of warnings from Chinese regulators that Evergrande's insolvency could spark broader risks in the country's financial system if not stabilized.


    Evergrande has been scrambling to raise funds to pay its many lenders, suppliers and investors. A deadline for the company to make an interest payment to creditors looms this week.


    The fall in the yuan down to 6.4698 yuan per dollar - its lowest since August 31 - also weighed on the Australian dollar, New Zealand dollar, and Norwegian crown, which all hit levels at or near three-week lows.


    The Japanese yen strengthened 0.2% to 109.72 yen per dollar, although that was not enough to stop the dollar index benefiting from a safety bid.


    Sterling, which also correlates with broader risk sentiment, fell 0.5% to a four-week low of $1.3662.


    Against a basket of peers, the greenback was up almost 0.2% on the day and at its highest in four weeks. Across the Atlantic, the euro was 0.15% lower on the day at $1.1707 by 1041 GMT.


    "FX markets start the week on a nervous footing, where the biggest threats are faced from the travails of Chinese real estate developer Evergrande and Wednesday's FOMC (Federal Open Markets Committee) meeting," said Francesco Pesole, G10 FX strategist at ING.


    "Today also sees a tight Canadian election, where a failure to get a clear result may not help a CAD already under pressure as the commodity complex feels the strain."


    The Canadian dollar, also a commodity currency that correlates with risk sentiment, hit its lowest level in four weeks at C$1.2815 per dollar.


    Polling for Monday's national election in Canada points to an advantage for incumbent Prime Minister Justin Trudeau but a likelihood that he remains leader of a minority government.


    CENTRAL BANK FOCUS


    Looking forward this week, no fewer than a dozen central banks hold meetings, but traders' top focus is on the Fed where expectations for a tapering signal are keeping the dollar bid.


    The U.S. central bank concludes a two-day meeting on Wednesday and consensus is that it will stick with broad plans for tapering this year but will hold off providing details or a timeline for at least a month.


    However creeping U.S. yields - which at the 10-year tenor rose for a fourth straight week last week - point to risks of a hawkish surprise or a shift in projections to show interest hikes as soon as 2022.


    "We suspect the Fed may be mildly hawkish in the sense that ... (it) is likely to raise its 'dots' signaling one rate hike next year and for PMIs to continue a tad lower. If so, euro/dollar will probably finish the week lower too," said Mikael Olai Milhøj, chief analyst at Danske Bank.


    Among the other major central banks, the Bank of England is expected to leave policy settings unchanged, but traders see potential for gains in the pound if the bank adopts a hawkish tone or more members call for asset-purchase tapering.


    There is no expectation of policy shifts at the resolutely dovish Bank of Japan on Wednesday, but a day later Norway's Norges Bank is expected to become the first G10 central bank to lift rates.


    "The gradual exit of central banks around the world from their emergency stimulus is likely exacerbating the risk-off trades from the China jitters," said Raffi Boyadjian, lead investment analyst at online broker XM.


    Cryptocurrencies fell, with bitcoin down over 5% at $44,587 and ether down 5.6% at $3,139.

    FOREX-Evergrande jitters pull risk FX lower, dollar gains on safety bid

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    ARMAGEDDON Has Evergrande Pricked the Bubble?

    A fortune cookie was the nearest the Chinese came to mind when I was young.
    Today global markets shaken and crypto tumbles as traders unload risk.
    Is ths the "Big One" or just a little prick.
    The uncertainty over energy Taiwan/N Korea is combined with next weeks German election outcome all lead to risk plus the US budget wrangle.

    Snap of live crypto market at high noon EDT today ?

    International Business, World News & Global Stock Market Analysis

    Dow off 600 midday
    China"s property bubble may be about to burst-clipboard01-jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails China"s property bubble may be about to burst-clipboard01-jpg  
    Quote Originally Posted by Latindancer View Post
    I just want the chance to use a bigger porridge bowl.

  22. #72
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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  23. #73
    5 4 Knoll
    david44's Avatar
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    Bit early to judge Dow lost another 400 this afternoon other indices similar.

    BLM may become Black Iiquidity Matters as investors flee to safety and the leveraged Chinese must make those payments while touching cloth, sellig assets like property in OZ and LOS

    The old saying goes
    "you don't know whose swimming naked until the tide goes out" is about to be tested.

    In normal times central banks might bail at any cost but already the novel nightly reverse repos at huge levels, debt debate in US already .

    Of course may adjust a minor 2-3% correction with a dead cat bounce.

    The difficulty is as many analysts know there becomes a moment when economic fundamentals may be overshadowed by psycholigcal fear , panic and rush to safety.Those who remember Saxona, Suvundra , Northern Rock all pre social media, and 34 hr rolling news, Robinhood apps

    BoT already upped debt ceiling but as tiny player globally can only look on as the traders ease back from the brink or form a circular firing squad.

    The sums needed to uderp teh CDOs and derivitives are mouthwatering

    Dow a few m ago down -881 on screeshot below 900 as I write .


    China"s property bubble may be about to burst-881-jpg

    This may be big
    Be interesting to see if "amatuer " short term crypto kids crap out and where people seek refuge bonds, gold, Swiss Francs or in bitterly divided USA ammo?

    By the time we awake we'll know if the early markets NZ Oz Japan HK will follow the dive or rebound.


    One interesting corollary maybe the CSU-CDU rebound as German votes look back not forward , they vote to replace Merkels coalition Sunday.

    None of this willbe a surprise to really woke

    EU regulator warns of ‘high risks’ for market crash – POLITICO

    There are mounting risks that make September a potentially hazardous time for stocks

    I bailed out on the 12th and maybe lost a few days of gains and a lot of peace of mind.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails China"s property bubble may be about to burst-881-jpg  
    Last edited by david44; 21-09-2021 at 01:55 AM.

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    Did Lehman? Did Enron? The S&L crisis? Na- just another big property developer going bust.

  25. #75
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    Yeah I'm still skeptical of this. Tomorrow the dow will be up by 1200 points

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