Seeing as that is the same question you have asked innumerable times tonight, I'm sure you will let us know sherlock. :rolleyes:Quote:
Has the Moskva sunk yet?
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Seeing as that is the same question you have asked innumerable times tonight, I'm sure you will let us know sherlock. :rolleyes:Quote:
Has the Moskva sunk yet?
So, I guess what you are saying is that it was Russian Navy incompetence that caused it?Quote:
Originally Posted by OhOh
The UK lost 6 ships in the Falklands. It happens. This is war. The point is, the Russian MOD isn't denying that anything happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by pickel
And no. The ship isn't sunk.
They're denying it was hit by missiles. If true that it wasnt, it means their own incompetence gave Ukraine their biggest PR win of the war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Backspin
I thought the other non existant sinkings were better propaganda wins for Ukraine.Quote:
Originally Posted by pickel
BTW , did you support the Falklands war ? maybe you were too young I dunno
Pentagon reporting the cruiser hasn't been sunk but is damaged. It must be pretty badly damaged if the crew have evacuated. No confirmation that it was hit by Ukraine missiles yet. Not sure how it was targeted nor what launcher was used.
^^ I don't see how the Falklands war is relevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pickel
Yep ... a win/win scenario :)
‘There Is Such Fuckery Going on Here’: Russian Soldiers ‘Revolting’ as They Get Stiffed on Ukraine Payouts
Russian soldiers in Ukraine are said to be “dumping their stuff” and leaving after the military leadership stiffed them on special pay they were promised.
That’s according to several intercepted phone calls released by Ukrainian authorities Wednesday, all of which paint the same picture of a “total clusterfuck” among Russian troops, as one soldier put it.
In audio released by Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Ukraine’s interior minister, a man purported to be a Russian soldier is told by a woman back home to “limp” so that he’ll be rotated out.
He says military leadership has promised “enormous cash payments,” but goes on to complain that “they say things here and then don’t fulfill a damn thing.”
“Everyone is outraged, entire battalions are starting revolts. The commanders promise us that they are giving us their word,” he said.
It was not clear where the purported Russian soldier was based in Ukraine, but his version of events was backed up by other intercepted communications.
In another chat said to be between a Russian soldier and his mother, he said the troops are getting fed up because they aren’t getting the payouts they were offered to serve.
“There is such fuckery going on here, I’m telling you, 600 people have resigned from our brigade throughout this time, well about that much, give or take. Everyone is going home, they are just dumping their stuff and saying, ‘I’m going home’ and then leaving,’” he said.
“There were rumors that they would pay [us], I thought 200,000 would be on my card, because so much time has already passed, and they didn’t pay a damn thing. Only the basic pay came,” he said.
When his mother offered to send him a flask of booze, he swatted down the idea, saying “management divvies everything up” among themselves.
Another guy in his unit, he said, had a package with money sent to him by all his relatives but “nothing from that package made it to him.”
Audio released by Ukraine’s Security Service is also said to capture a purported Russian soldier speaking of troops on the border with Ukraine refusing en masse to be deployed there.
He describes a “total clusterfuck” in Bryansk, where he says “everyone is refusing to go [to Ukraine], they don’t want to go. [Leadership] is writing up papers on them and firing them.”
His own commanding officer, he complains, “doesn’t give a fuck about his own personnel.”
Such reports of plummeting morale come as Vladimir Putin is said to be trying to gather enough troops to outnumber Ukrainian soldiers five-to-one in the eastern part of Ukraine, where the Kremlin claims to have shifted its focus.
Perhaps as part of that effort, billboards have been spotted on public transportation in Russia offering “short-term contracts” with Russia’s Armed Forces.
https://teakdoor.com/attachment.php?...id=85360&stc=1
‘There Is Such Fuckery Going on Here’: Russian Soldiers ‘Revolting’ as They Get Stiffed on Ukraine Payouts
The Russians have now reported that Moskva has sunk.
I wonder if they really managed to evacuate the crew before it sank. Apparently, it was in a big storm and the sea is jolly cold. I guess we'll hear more in the coming days.
Sinking of the flagship of the Black Sea fleet has got to be an unexpected blow for Putin. It's going to be difficult to spin this as an accident.
Russian navy evacuates badly damaged flagship in Black Sea. Ukraine claims it was hit by a missile
One of the Russian Navy's most important warships has been badly damaged in the Black Sea, a massive blow to a military struggling against Ukrainian resistance 50 days into Vladimir Putin's invasion of his neighbor.Russian sailors evacuated the guided-missile cruiser Moskva, the flagship of its Black Sea fleet, after a fire that detonated ammunition aboard, Russia's defense ministry said.
Ukraine's Operational Command South claimed Thursday that the Moskva had begun to sink after it was hit Ukrainian Neptune anti-ship missiles.
"In the Black Sea operational zone, Neptune anti-ship cruise missiles hit the cruiser Moskva, the flagship of the Russian Black Sea Fleet -- it received significant damage," the statement said. "A fire broke out. Other units of the ship's group tried to help, but a storm and a powerful explosion of ammunition overturned the cruiser and it began to sink."
Russia's defense ministry said Thursday that the Moskva "remains afloat" and that measures were being taken to tow it to port. The ministry said the crew had been evacuated to other Black Sea Fleet ships in the area.
Kremlin Spokesman Dmitry Peskov repeatedly declined to answer questions about the fate of the Moskva during a daily media call Thursday.
"This is a topic for the Ministry of Defense, I can't say anything," he said.
Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby told CNN's Brianna Keilar that "there was an explosion" on the Moskva, but said the United States cannot say at this point if the ship was hit by a missile.
"We're not quite exactly sure what happened here. We do assess that there was an explosion, at least one explosion on this cruiser. A fairly major one at that, that has caused extensive damage to the ship," Kirby said.
"We assess that the ship is able to make its own way, and it is doing that; it's heading more towards, now, we think the east. We think it's probably going to be putting in at Sevastapol for repairs," he added.
US National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said on Thursday that "the way that this has unfolded is a big blow to Russia," as Moscow has had to admit its flagship has been badly damaged.
"And they've had to kind of choose between two stories. One story is that it was just incompetence, and the other is that they came under attack. And neither is a particularly good outcome for them," Sullivan told an audience at the Economic Club of Washington, D.C.
Whatever happened to the Moskva, analysts say its loss would strike hard at the heart of the Russian navy as well as national pride, comparable to the US Navy losing a battleship during World War II or an aircraft carrier today.
"Only the loss of a ballistic missile submarine or the Kutznetsov (Russia's lone aircraft carrier) would inflict a more serious blow to Russian morale and the navy's reputation with the Russian public," said Carl Schuster, a retired US Navy captain and former director of operations at the US Pacific Command's Joint Intelligence Center.
Alessio Patalano, professor of war and strategy at King's College in London, said losing the warship would be a "massive blow" for Russia.
"Ships operate away from public attention and their activities are rarely the subject of news. But they are large floating pieces of national territory, and when you lose one, a flagship no less, the political and symbolic message -- in addition to the military loss -- stands out precisely because of it," he said.
The 611-foot-long (186 meters) Moskva, with a crew of almost 500, is the pride of the Russian naval fleet in the Black Sea. Originally commissioned into the Soviet navy as the Slava in the 1980s, it was renamed Moskva in 1995 and after a refit reentered service in 1998, according to military site Naval-Technology.com.
The Moskva is armed with a range of anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles as well as torpedoes and naval guns and close-in missile defense systems.
All those represent massive amounts of explosive ordnance in its ammunition magazines. Any fire nearing them would have given the crew limited options to deal with the threat, Schuster said.
"When a fire reaches your ammunition magazine(s), you have two choices; 1) flood them or 2) abandon ship," Schuster said. "Otherwise your crew is onboard to be wiped out by the catastrophic explosion that follows a fire reaching several hundred tons of ordnance."
Odesa state regional administrator Maxim Marchenko claimed in a post on Telegram that Ukrainian forces had used Neptune cruises missiles to attack the Moskva. If that's true, the Moskva would potentially be the largest warship ever taken out of action by a missile, Schuster said.
Such an achievement would represent a big advance for Kyiv's forces.
The Neptune is a Ukrainian weapon, developed domestically based on the Soviet KH-35 cruise missile. It became operational in the Ukrainian forces just last year, according to Ukrainian media reports.
If it was used to attack the Moskva, it would be the first known use of the Neptune during the war, according to a post on the website of the Center for International Maritime Security (CIMSEC) from Lt. Cmdr. Jason Lancaster, a US Navy surface warfare officer.
His post for the CIMSEC on Tuesday said the threat posed by mobile shore-based cruise missiles like the Neptune "changes operational behavior" of an enemy.
Russian "ships will operate in ways to minimize the risk of detection and maximize their chances to defend themselves," Lancaster wrote. "These behavioral changes limit Russia's ability to utilize their fleet to their advantage. The added stress of sudden combat increases fatigue and can lead to mistakes."
According to Patalano, the war professor: "It would appear the Russians have learned that the hard way today."
In the CIMSEC post, Lancaster notes the British Royal Navy lost several ships to missiles fired by Argentina during the 1982 Falklands War.
During that war, a British submarine sank the Argentine cruiser General Belgrano, a former World War II US Navy ship similar in size to the Moskva.
The Moskva also poses symbolic significance to Ukraine as it was one of the ships involved in the famous exchange at Snake Island in February, according to Oleksiy Arestovych, an adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky.
According to a purported audio exchange in late February, as the Russians approached the Ukrainian garrison on Snake Island, also known as Zmiinyi Island, in the Black Sea, a Russian officer said: "This is a military warship. This is a Russian military warship. I suggest you lay down your weapons and surrender to avoid bloodshed and needless casualties. Otherwise, you will be bombed."
A Ukrainian soldier responded: "Russian warship, go f*** yourself."
On Thursday, Ukrainian National Security Advisor Oleksiy Danilov told CNN that the strike on the Moskva was a very important mission for his country's military and vowed there would be more such dramatic actions.
"It is a very important mission for us. The Moskva was there near the Snake Island and was hit yesterday by two powerful Ukrainian-made missiles," Danilov said. "(Putin) came to kill our children, our women, our civilians. That is our gift to him. And this is just the beginning. There will be more than one Moskva."
If the Moskva is lost, it would be the second large-sized Russian naval vessel to suffer that fate during Moscow's war with Ukraine.
In late March, Ukraine said a missile strike had destroyed a Russian landing ship at the port of Berdiansk.
Russian warship sinks in the Black Sea after Ukraine claims it was hit by a missile - CNN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy
Confirmed ... Telegram: Contact @rian_ru
It's in Russian, so no need to click.
Going, going ... Attachment 85361
News report is here ... Live updates: Latest news on Russia and the war in Ukraine
:rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Backspin
It's a long and insightful article, headlines are below ...
---
Why has Russia invaded Ukraine and what does Putin want?
Vladimir Putin unleashed the biggest war in Europe since World War Two with the justification that modern, Western-leaning Ukraine was a constant threat and Russia could not feel "safe, develop and exist".
But after thousands of deaths in ruined towns and cities and the displacement of more than 11 million people inside Ukraine and beyond, the questions remain: what is his aim and how will this war end?
What was Putin's goal?
The Russian leader's initial aim was to overrun Ukraine and depose its government, ending for good its desire to join the Western defensive alliance Nato.
He failed to capture the capital Kyiv and after a month of setbacks turned his ambitions to Ukraine's east and south.
Launching the invasion on 24 February he told the Russian people his goal was to "demilitarise and de-Nazify Ukraine", to protect people subjected to what he called eight years of bullying and genocide by Ukraine's government.
How have Putin's aims changed?
A month into the invasion, Russia declared its main goal was the "liberation of Donbas" - broadly referring to Ukraine's eastern regions of Luhansk and Donetsk.
More than a third of this area was already seized by Russian proxy forces in a war that began in 2014, now Russia wants to conquer all of it.
The Kremlin claimed it had "generally accomplished" the aims of the invasion's first phase, which it defined as considerably reducing Ukraine's combat potential. But it is clear from Russia's withdrawal from areas around Kyiv that it has scaled back its ambitions.
Is neutrality enough for Putin?
Russia said it was considering as a possible compromise a "neutral, demilitarised" Ukraine with its own army and navy, along the lines of Austria or Sweden, which are both EU members.
It is not clear if that would be enough or what it would mean. Austria may be neutral, but Sweden is non-aligned and is now considering Nato membership.
The Ukrainians have offered neutrality in return for security guarantees from allies. And yet the Russian leader has since said peace talks have reached a dead end. So he may still harbour ambitions to return Ukraine to Russia's sphere of influence and away from its tilt to the West.
Is a peace deal possible?
President Putin has not given up on talks that have taken place intermittently for weeks. However, the only Western leader to meet him since the war began, Austria's Karl Nehammer, said he had entered into a "logic of war".
Ukraine's president has already accepted his country will not be admitted to Nato: "It's a truth and it must be recognised."
What about Crimea and the east?
It is difficult to see a way out of this. That's why Ukraine proposes to leave the future status of Crimea to talks over the next 15 years. The Kremlin says Crimea is now Russian territory and the Russian constitution bars discussing its status with anyone else.
As for the eastern areas, Kyiv says all Russian troops would leave Ukrainian territory and the future of Russian proxy-held areas would be discussed by the two presidents as part of a ceasefire summit.
What's Putin's problem with Nato?
For Russia's leader the West's 30-member defensive military alliance has one aim - to split society in Russia and ultimately destroy it.
Ahead of the war, he demanded that Nato turn the clock back to 1997 and reverse its eastward expansion, removing its forces and military infrastructure from member states that joined the alliance from 1997 and not deploying "strike weapons near Russia's borders".
That means Central Europe, Eastern Europe and the Baltics.
Does Putin have designs beyond Ukraine?
If he has, his military setbacks in Ukraine may have put paid to any wider ambitions beyond its borders. His ambition to roll Nato back to the late 1990s has taken a hit, with Finland and Sweden looking closely at joining the alliance.
Having witnessed Mr Putin's willingness to lay waste European cities to achieve his aims, Western leaders are now under no illusion. President Joe Biden has labelled him a war criminal and the leaders of both Germany and France see this war as a turning point in the history of Europe.
What next for Russia itself?
President Putin has been stunned by the scale of the Western response to his invasion - and he is furious. Not only has Ukraine been supplied with weaponry but a wide array of sanctions threaten to contract Russia's economy by 10% this year.
Lots more here ... Why has Russia invaded Ukraine and what does Putin want? - BBC News
Quote:
Originally Posted by Backspin
Attachment 85366Quote:
Originally Posted by pickel
:smileylaughing:
It fucking sunk
:smileylaughing:
TBH, I'm actually quite happy that no lives, apparently were lost.
Which, if either there were two missile strikes or a fire which blew, hard to imagine that no-one died.
Someone most likely did. You can not trust the lying Russian scum.Quote:
Originally Posted by David48atTD
There is a third possibility you know. Sabotage.
Meh. Whatever happened, it is a massive blow for your overlords. They lost the crown jewel of the Black Sea.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
:)
Or an Act of God?Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
A lightening strike?
... more likely a Neptune Strike ... two of them :)
Whatever it is, I don't think Putin enjoyed his breakfast! It is a blow to his prestige, although it obviously has no great influence on the war in the east.
Turns out the Moskava sank while it was in tow to port. How to we know ? Because the Russian MOD said so.
Air alarm map right now. Kiev has visitors. I dont think this is escalation from the incident at sea.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQVbSBcX...jpg&name=small
They had no choice, you Muppet. It is kind of hard to hide the sinking of an almost 13,000 ton capital warship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Backspin
This is a massive blow by the Ukrainians against your god Putin.