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  1. #501
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    Don't take on China alone, says ex-Australia PM Kevin Rudd

    Countries should unite against China's growing economic and geopolitical coercion or risk being singled out and punished by Beijing, former Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has told the BBC.

    Australia V China-_118688985_gettyimages-1302883684-1-jpg


    Mr Rudd said governments in the West should not be afraid to challenge China on issues such as human rights.

    Around the world, countries are navigating a new geopolitical order framed by the rising dominance of China.

    "If you are going to have a disagreement with Beijing, as many governments around the world are now doing, it's far better to arrive at that position conjointly with other countries rather than unilaterally, because it makes it easier for China to exert bilateral leverage against you," Mr Rudd told the BBC's Talking Business Asia programme.

    His comments come as relations between Australia and China have deteriorated to their worst point in decades. The relationship has soured following a series of economic and diplomatic blows dealt by each side.

    Australia has scrapped agreements tied to China's massive infrastructure project, the Belt and Road Initiative. It also banned Chinese telecommunications firm Huawei from building the country's 5G network.

    Australia provokes China anger over scrapped deals
    The year when Australia and China hit 'lowest ebb'

    But it was really Australia's call for an investigation into the origins of the coronavirus pandemic that set off a new storm between the two sides.

    China retaliated by placing sanctions on Australian imports - including wine, beef, lobster and barley - and has hinted more may come.

    Beijing has also suspended key economic dialogues with Canberra, which effectively means there is no high-level contact to smooth things out.
    A new battleground

    Mr Rudd, who led Australia twice between 2007 and 2013, has criticised the current government's approach to China, saying that it has been counterproductive at times.

    "The conservative government's response to the Chinese has from time to time been measured - but other times, frankly, has been rhetorical and shrill," said Mr Rudd, who is now president of the Asia Society Policy Institute.

    The former Labor party prime minister believes it could risk the fortunes of a key Australian export to China: iron ore.

    "They [the Chinese leadership] will see Australia as an unreliable supplier of iron ore long term, because of the geopolitical conclusions that Beijing will make in relation to the conservative government in Canberra.
    Digging iron oreimage copyrightGetty Images
    image captionAustralia is seeing record prices for its iron ore

    "That long-term supply may be put at risk because of geopolitical factors."

    A fifth of Australia's exports go to China, an economic relationship that has only grown in importance in the last few decades.
    Taking on China

    Increasingly countries - especially those ideologically allied with the US - are speaking out against China. In many ways, they followed the lead of the US.

    Under former President Donald Trump, America launched a bitter trade war with China, imposing tariffs on hundreds of billions of dollars worth of goods.

    That sparked a tit-for-tat battle over trade with China, and changed the tone of relations between the two countries.

    China had hoped that under President Joe Biden things might be different, but that hasn't been the case.
    Americans in Shanghai watched Biden's inauguration in Januaryimage copyrightGetty Images
    image captionPeople in Shanghai watched Joe Biden's inauguration in January

    While trade negotiations are ongoing, this week Kurt Campbell, the American deputy assistant to President Biden on national security issues, said the US was effectively done with the period of engagement with China.

    In the past many countries, including Australia and the US, had a different approach to China. As China grew richer, there was also a sense it would grow more free.

    Engagement and dialogue were the ways the global community tried to navigate China, but there appears to be growing consensus that is not working.

    Mr Rudd said navigating China means picking your battles.

    "China won't like it," he said, referencing growing concerns directed at China's treatment of its Uyghur population in Xinjiang, as well as Hong Kong and Taiwan.

    "But the fact that China doesn't like something doesn't necessarily mean the rest of us shouldn't do it.

    "That is not to say that you go and pick a fight with China every day of the week," he added.

    Uighur camp detainees allege systematic rape
    US: China 'committed genocide against Uighurs'
    The long read: China's hidden camps

    Mr Rudd, who speaks fluent Mandarin, dismissed criticisms that he was perhaps nave or optimistic about China when he was in office.

    He said he raised a number of concerns with the Chinese government on human rights.

    "I've had many, many disagreements with China on human rights in the past," he told the BBC.

    "On my first visit to Beijing as prime minister, I delivered an address at Peking University in Chinese criticising China's human rights performance."

    However, he said the manner in which he conducted the relationship with China was diplomatic.

    "It was hardline, but we also managed to preserve the overall balance of the relationship."

    Don'''t take on China alone, says ex-Australia PM Kevin Rudd - BBC News

  2. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    Panic buying by world buyers to protect themselves from even higher prices for iron ore?

    All FTAs have agreements and clause including barley and iron ore.

    Barley was one issue, iron ore is another. Was the barley issue solved, is there an iron ore issue, other than suppliers getting richer?


    You may find it was The Commonwealth of Australia that is reneging on singed agreements contracts at it's masters bidding.

    China Exports By Country

    Australia $53.48B 2020

    China Imports By Country


    Australia $114.8dB 2020


    2.1% of China Exports

    42 % of The Commonwealth of Australia exports go to China

    4.5 % of The Commonwealth of Australia exports go to UK

    4 % of The Commonwealth of Australia exports go to ameristan

    China Exports By Country


    China Imports By Country

    Australia Exports By Country
    About 40% of exports to China is iron ore. On your figures about 45 billion. With that removed from the equation if China decides to do so it makes the figures fairly balanced and removes most of the financial sway they have with Australia. Many Chinese imports come from Chinese owned companies in australia. Chinese exports are mainly from labour intensive industries which will hurt Chinese employment and that's not good for stability in a totalitarian country when living standards drop or stagnate.
    Also, commodities are there until used. Factories are only there when used. Iron ore stays in the ground until needed.
    Factories close and with them, jobs. It's not as much one way traffic as your deluded and flawed maoist anti western ideology suggests. If it was so easy to wean their mills off of Australia's superior quality and reliable delivery of product, the Chinese would've already done so. Their hubris has given us a glimpse of how arogant and controling they will become if they are allowed to do so. The west in its' own interest must seek alternative suppliers for Chinese goods from friendlier countries.
    The three "whatabout" stooges will be along shortly.

  3. #503
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    It's quite simple if you are an aussie (or at least it should be). If you care about your countries enviable standard of living and your kids, you want to trade with China- not go to War with them. Let uncle sam do the sabre rattling. 'When the trade stops flowing, the bullets start flying'.

  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Cow View Post
    The west in its' own interest must seek alternative suppliers for Chinese goods from friendlier countries.
    Many will be very friendly if the "price" is right. The "price" may have many constituents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Cow View Post
    About 40% of exports to China is iron ore.
    Similar to most organisations, having one large customer has it's pitfalls.

    It appears these are OZ customers:

    "Exports:

    The top exports of Australia are Iron Ore ($67.5B), Coal Briquettes ($51.5B), Petroleum Gas ($34.1B), Gold ($25.4B), and Aluminium Oxide ($5.6B),

    exporting mostly to China ($111B), Japan ($41.5B), South Korea ($18.9B), India ($15.3B), and United Kingdom ($10.6B)"

    australian irn ore customers - Google 搜尋

    OZ annual exports:

    Exports 38,274.00 AUD Million

    By country:

    Australia Exports By Country

    This page displays a table with Australia Exports By Country in U.S. dollars, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database on international trade.


    China
    $103.00B
    2019
    Japan $39.45B 2019
    South Korea $17.46B 2019
    United Kingdom $10.57B 2019
    United States $10.17B 2019
    India $9.70B 2019
    Other Asia, nes $8.84B 2019
    Singapore $8.37B 2019
    New Zealand $7.08B 2019
    Malaysia $6.18B 2019
    Hong Kong $5.17B 2019
    Vietnam $4.21B 2019
    Indonesia $4.10B 2019
    https://tradingeconomics.com/austral...rts-by-country
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

  5. #505
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    It's quite simple if you are an aussie (or at least it should be). If you care about your countries enviable standard of living and your kids, you want to trade with China- not go to War with them. Let uncle sam do the sabre rattling. 'When the trade stops flowing, the bullets start flying'.
    So kiss chinky arse and let them do whatever they like, says the fawning chinky sycophant.

  6. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    you want to trade with China- not go to War with them
    You do realise there are more than two options, right?

  7. #507
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    And ya reckon orrstralia is heavily dependant on China?



    The $3bn bargain: how China dominates Pacific mining, logging and fishing



    One country dominates the Pacific’s resources extraction.

    Guardian analysis of trade data has revealed that China received more than half the total tonnes of seafood, wood and minerals exported from the region in 2019, a haul worth $3.3bn that has been described by experts as “staggering in magnitude”.

    The country’s mass extraction of resources comes as China has deepened its connections with governments across the region, amid a soft power push that sees it rivalling the influence of the US and Australia in the Pacific.

    China took more by weight of these resources from the Pacific than the next 10 countries combined, with experts saying China “would easily outstrip” other countries, including Australia, when it comes to “gross environmental impact of its extractive industries”.

    Data analysis reveals the extent of China’s appetite for Pacific natural resources.

    In 2019 China imported 4.8m tonnes of wood, 4.8m tonnes of mineral products, and 72,000 tonnes of seafood from the Pacific.

    The next single largest customer for the Pacific’s extractive resources was Japan, which imported 4.1m tonnes of minerals – mostly petroleum - 370,000 tonnes of wood and 24,000 tonnes of seafood. Australia imported 600,000 tonnes of minerals, 5,000 tonnes of wood and 200 tonnes of seafood.

    Shane Macleod, a research fellow at the Lowy Institute, says that China is such a dominant customer of Pacific resources because of its proximity to the region and its need to power its economy.

    “They just have the appetite. They have the need for natural resources and they’re looking for sources and the Pacific is geographically close. It has the added benefit that the supply lines are shorter,” he said. “So you can look at the Ramu nickel mine in Papua New Guinea. That is providing raw material for China in the region, directly, without having to be transported from the other side of the planet.”

    From Solomon Islands, more than 90% of extractive resources go to China when measured by weight. And China regularly claims more than 90% of the total tonnes of wood exported by Papua New Guinea and Solomon Islands.

    Beyond direct imports of resources, data from the American Enterprise Institute shows more than US$2bn was invested by Chinese companies in Pacific mining in the past two decades. These include investments in the controversial Porgera, Ramu Nickel and Frieda River mines in PNG.

    The Chinese government has also sent billions of dollars in official finance into the region, including tens of millions for new marine and industrial zones.


    Comparing the Pacific’s exports

    China is the Pacific’s biggest customer whether measured by weight or US dollars. But Australia is close behind when measured in value – $2.8bn to China’s $3.3bn in 2019. This is due to the fact that many extractive products are heavy but relatively inexpensive commodities, like wood.


    Full Article- The $3bn bargain: how China dominates Pacific mining, logging and fishing (msn.com)



    America has a few client states in the Pacific, such as the Marshall Islands, that are vassals- totally dependant on US aid, military presence and trade, to the point they have no independent foreign policy. Their UN vote is automatically with the US- typically, such as voting against any UN motion to censure Israel. It does rather look like China may be cultivating a few vassals too.
    Last edited by sabang; 31-05-2021 at 05:48 PM.

  8. #508
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    And what they can't buy, they steal.

  9. #509
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    Australia and New Zealand unite in ‘concerns’ over Beijing after NZ was accused of seeking ‘fast Chinese buck’

    31 May, 2021 09:37 / Updated 1 hour ago

    "New Zealand PM Jacinda Ardern and her Australian counterpart, Scott Morrison pledged unity in standing up to various Chinese policies. The show of solidarity came after a media report suggested Wellington was cozying up to China. Prime Ministers Ardern and Morrison met in Queenstown, New Zealand on Monday.

    They issued a joint statement expressing concern over Beijing’s

    “intensification of destabilising activities”

    in the South China Sea and accused China of taking steps to undermine the autonomy of Hong Kong and restricting human rights and freedoms there.

    The leaders also called on China to “respect the human rights of the Uyghur people and other Muslim minorities.”

    Beijing strongly denies any crackdowns on human rights within its borders, denouncing the claims as Western propaganda.

    Ardern told reporters the two neighboring countries have “broadly been positioned in exactly the same place” on major issues like human rights and trade.

    “I really push back on any suggestion that we are not taking a strong stance on these incredibly important issues,”
    she said.

    Morrison spoke in the same manner, describing Australia and New Zealand as “great partners, friends, allies and indeed family.”

    The public display of unity came right after New Zealand’s China policies were called into question in a much-discussed documentary by Channel 9’s ‘60 Minutes Australia’. In the show’s dramatic trailer, New Zealand’s approach to Beijing was characterized as a “deal with the devil,” splitting with Australia in order to make “a fast Chinese buck.”

    The episode was advertised with the tagline:

    “Could it be that New Zealand is turning into New Xi-land?”

    referring to Chinese leader Xi Jinping.

    Ardern denounced the portrayal of her country as cozying up to China.

    “I think what we’re dealing with here is more of a perception issue – particularly, I notice, from the Australian media, than reality,”

    she told ‘The AM Show’ on Monday.

    When asked if he thinks New Zealand is selling out its sovereignty to China, Morrison said no.

    “Australia and New Zealand are trading nations, but neither of us would ever trade our sovereignty or our values,”


    he said.

    Relations between Australia and China have deteriorated significantly since Australia called for an investigation into the origins of Covid-19. The diplomatic rows involved tariffs, disputes in the sphere of telecommunications, and politicians exchanging blows on social media.

    Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Wang Wenbin has rejected Australia’s and New Zealand’s stance, saying that Beijing strongly opposes foreign interference in its domestic affairs, according to Reuters."

    Australia and New Zealand unite in ‘concerns’ over Beijing after NZ was accused of seeking ‘fast Chinese buck’ — RT World News




    “Australia and New Zealand are trading nations, but neither of us would ever trade our sovereignty or our values,”


    "Beijing strongly opposes foreign interference in its domestic affairs".

    Good to see all three countries are on the same page.

    One wonders, after Beijing placed sanctions on OZ wine, which country is selling more wine to China and :

    "did a “deal with the devil,” in order to make “a fast Chinese buck.”



    Last edited by OhOh; 31-05-2021 at 07:05 PM.

  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    Beijing strongly denies any crackdowns on human rights within its borders, denouncing the claims as Western propaganda.

  11. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    Many will be very friendly if the "price" is right. The "price" may have many constituents.


    Similar to most organisations, having one large customer has it's pitfalls.

    It appears these are OZ customers:

    "Exports:

    The top exports of Australia are Iron Ore ($67.5B), Coal Briquettes ($51.5B), Petroleum Gas ($34.1B), Gold ($25.4B), and Aluminium Oxide ($5.6B),

    exporting mostly to China ($111B), Japan ($41.5B), South Korea ($18.9B), India ($15.3B), and United Kingdom ($10.6B)"

    australian irn ore customers - Google 搜尋

    OZ annual exports:

    Exports 38,274.00 AUD Million

    By country:

    Australia Exports By Country

    This page displays a table with Australia Exports By Country in U.S. dollars, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database on international trade.


    China
    $103.00B
    2019
    Japan $39.45B 2019
    South Korea $17.46B 2019
    United Kingdom $10.57B 2019
    United States $10.17B 2019
    India $9.70B 2019
    Other Asia, nes $8.84B 2019
    Singapore $8.37B 2019
    New Zealand $7.08B 2019
    Malaysia $6.18B 2019
    Hong Kong $5.17B 2019
    Vietnam $4.21B 2019
    Indonesia $4.10B 2019
    https://tradingeconomics.com/austral...rts-by-country
    What you fail to note through that myopic lens that you view China with. China is a large importer of minerals from Australia. Not because it wants to but because it needs to. Australia also has the largest reserves of Uranium (cant see the Chinese getting any of that) but more importantly the second largest reserves of Lithium and that is something the Chinese will need in increasing volumes. Hopefully we have learned our lesson about unreliable trade partners and will sell to alternative countries that dont behave like spoiled brats from one child families.
    As to your ludicrous assumption Sabang of war with China.
    The Chinese bark a lot and hope it will work. They know where there bread is buttered and becoming an international pariah would destroy there economy. They are painfully aware they have got this far by being allowed free access to Western markets and the western financial system. They are not strong enough to prevent being blockaded into financial oblivion and the Chinese for all their bluster know it. It will not be China V USA, self interest by the west will dictate it will be China V all western democracies and that is a fight, financial or otherwise they cannot win. In short they will stick to their current trade war tactics and Australia will have to eventually wean itself off of the poisoned Chinese Tit.

  12. #512
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    As to your ludicrous assumption Sabang of war with China.
    It is a ludicrous assumption, and one which I did not make- where did you get that fantasy from? But when you have, say, a serving Australian General being quoted in the Press as saying he believes there is a good chance of war with China in the next five years, things are getting pretty ludicrous aren't they?? This really happened- and the bloke should have lost his job. It is the western press that has been beating the war drums by megaphoning and exaggerating these type of comments (thanks rupert), much more so than the Chinese Press. People in glass houses should not throw stones.

    They know where there bread is buttered
    I find myself wondering if many aussies have any idea at all what side their bread is buttered on. When I hear stoopid things like 'oh, we'll just sell the iron ore to someone else then', it is a real face palm moment. The plain fact is, even impacted producers (eg wine, seafood, barley, beef) that can at least export some of their produce to other markets are having to sell at a considerably lower price to do so. Booming iron ore prices and sales (ta China) make the national accounts look good- but they conceal a lot of pain in several sectors.

    All so unnecessary, because it all started when some idiotic aussie 'Dep'ty Sheriff' politicians started parroting the invective of that blundering idiot Mike Pompousarse- who was already on his way out. To quote an old parable- just keep your damn mouth shut and let them think you a fool, rather than opening it and proving them right.

    The "poisoned Chinese tit" will be the world's largest economy within a decade, and at least 30% larger than the US by 2050. Economically speaking, no country has benefitted more from the rise of China than Australia (well, except perhaps a billion Chinese people lifted out of dire poverty). Why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs? The Chinese are in no way compelled to favour Australia as a source of so many things, and them changing that dependency is in no way a declaration of war. It is however a spectacular act of self immolation on the part of Australia.
    Last edited by sabang; 01-06-2021 at 07:36 AM.

  13. #513
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs? The Chinese are in no way compelled to favour Australia as a source of so many things, and them changing that dependency is in no way a declaration of war. It is however a spectacular act of self immolation on the part of Australia.
    So again you advocate kow towing to the chinkies no matter what atrocities they commit against their own people.

  14. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    no matter what atrocities they commit against their own people.
    . . . and others

  15. #515
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    Such an exception in our kind world...

  16. #516
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    no matter what atrocities they commit against their own people.
    Such as?

    . . and others
    Such as?

    How tedious to have to repeat the question. How many human beings have been killed by US military (or proxy) action compared to Chinese in the current century? How many foreign governments have been attempted to overthrow, US vs China? How many Chinese soldiers have died or been maimed for life because of hostile action in foreign countries, vs American? How many of their allies soldiers? Can you guys count?

    So China is the clear and incumbent threat to world peace, right? Bit like that 911 plotting, WMD possessing Saddam I suppose.

  17. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
    Such an exception in our kind world...
    No one said it was an exception, but unlike everyone else you and your tweedle-dee and tweedle-dumber mates don't accept yours, rather deflect at every turn

  18. #518
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    Missing here helge...
    Wondering whether he is not involved in the problems that are now placing Denmark on world map?
    (still nothing new in the World News?)

  19. #519
    Thailand Expat lom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
    Missing here helge...
    Wondering whether he is not involved in the problems that are now placing Denmark on world map?
    You mean the news that our filthy neighbors are releasing 700.000 liter of sewage per hour into the water between Denmark and Sweden?
    That's not something new, they've always been the Indians of Scandinavia.

  20. #520
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    ^Not exactly such sewage, quite a different one. Added to SC, when helge (and Ms.K. either) hasn't proceeded...

  21. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Cow View Post
    Hopefully we have learned our lesson
    I agree, diversify your product purchasers and provide policies for your own citizens well-being.

    Australia V China-bd26b0_e7fc32af5f55479e81bb57145a403716-mv2-jpg
    Last edited by OhOh; 01-06-2021 at 06:52 PM.

  22. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    I agree, diversify your product purchasers and provide policies for your own citizens well-being.
    And rob what you can from anyone you can.

  23. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    And rob what you can from anyone you can.
    Now that would take exceptional skills or the threat of being black balled from one's club.

  24. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by lom View Post
    You mean the news that our filthy neighbors are releasing 700.000 liter of sewage per hour into the water between Denmark and Sweden?
    An accident

    700000 litre is 700 cubic meters

    Catastrophy !
    Quote Originally Posted by lom View Post
    That's not something new, they've always been the Indians of Scandinavia.
    True

    I take it you see yourself as cowboys then

    MUH

    Keep Denmark clean:


    Drive a swede to the ferry


  25. #525
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    I was always told by Norwegians and Swedes that Danes are the Italians of Scandinavia . . . not a bad thing, really, and hardly an insult.

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