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  1. #1
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    A True Confederacy of Dunces

    Anti-Vaccination Activists Are a Growing Force at Virus Protests

    Nicholas Bogel-Burroughs
    The New York TimesMay 3, 2020, 10:43 PM GMT+7


    Anti-vaxxer apologizes after refusing to leave children's playground
    Yahoo News Video



    The protest Friday in Sacramento urging California’s governor to reopen the state resembled the rallies that have appeared elsewhere in the country, with crowds flocking to the state Capitol, pressing leaders to undo restrictions on businesses and daily life.
    But the organizers were not militia members, restaurant owners or prominent conservative operatives. They were some of the loudest anti-vaccination activists in the country.

    The people behind the rally are founders of a group, the Freedom Angels Foundation, which is best known in California for its opposition to state efforts to mandate vaccinations. And the protest was the latest example of the overlapping interests that have connected a range of groups — including Tea Party activists and armed militia groups — to oppose the measures that governors have taken to stop the spread of the coronavirus.

    Activists known for their opposition to vaccines have also been involved in protests in New York, Colorado and Texas, where they have found an audience for their arguments for personal freedom and their suspicion of government. But their growing presence at the protests worries public health experts who fear that their messaging could harm the United States’ ability to turn a corner following the pandemic if Americans do not accept a future vaccine.

    “One of the things that we’re finding is that the rhetoric is pretty similar between the anti-vaxxers and those demanding to reopen,” said Dr. Rupali Limaye, who studies behavior around vaccines at Johns Hopkins University. “What we hear a lot of is ‘individual self-management’ — this idea that they should be in control of making decisions, that they can decide what science is correct and incorrect, and that they know what’s best for their child.”

    Heidi Muñoz Gleisner, one of the three women who hosted the rally in Sacramento on Friday and were arrested by the police, said the stay-at-home orders that are expiring in many states had mobilized people who span a variety of groups focused on individual liberty.
    “My hope and prayer is that all Americans stand up and take notice that they have to be actively engaged with their government,” Muñoz Gleisner said Saturday when she returned to the Capitol grounds to let her son play in the grass. “From Day 1, it’s been difficult that we’re always castigated as anti-vaccine, and these protests are castigated as anti-lockdown. We have always been about freedom.”

    In recent years, Muñoz Gleisner and the two other founding members of the Freedom Angels, Denise Aguilar and Tara Thornton, have organized people in California and New Jersey against bills that crack down on nonmedical exemptions for vaccinations and the process by which they’re granted.

    Many were galvanized by a 2015 fight over a state bill introduced in response to a measles outbreak at Disneyland.
    The proposal dramatically tightened personal and religious exemptions for the vaccination of schoolchildren that had allowed a whole range of Californians to dodge those immunizations.

    The law passed but not without energizing a huge anti-vaccination contingent. Mostly women, they demonstrated on the Capitol steps and packed the Capitol hallways and hearing rooms for months. Many brought unvaccinated children.

    Late last year, a referendum they sought to put on the ballot against California’s latest vaccine law failed to garner enough signatures. But Muñoz Gleisner said she was hopeful that people who had previously turned away from her group at the mention of vaccinations might now be compelled to listen a bit longer as the group focuses more broadly on issues of individual liberty. The rally Friday, she said, was the largest the group had hosted.

    “No longer is it, ‘That’s just a crazy anti-vaxxer — she’s just worried about vaccines,’” Muñoz Gleisner said. “No, this is a nation in distress. If you lead with vaccinations, people have already made their mind up.”

    And now their influence in the reopening debate extends beyond California.

    In New York, Rita Palma, who runs a blog and seeks to halt mandatory vaccinations, voiced support for the California protest and joined one herself in Albany, where she interviewed protesters and streamed the rally on her Facebook page. And Jonathan Lockwood, a consultant who has worked with conservatives in several states on matters including opposition to the California vaccination bill last year, founded the ReopenAmerica Project, which urges lawmakers to get the country “back up and running.”

    “Opening up America again is not a partisan issue, and we need all hands on deck to saving lives and livelihoods,” Lockwood told The Colorado Times Recorder last month. He counts lawmakers in Oregon and Colorado as supporters.

    Experts who study the groups tied to the protests say some are united in part by their belief in conspiracy theories, including some that assert dangers in vaccinating children, which the overwhelming majority of American parents do. There is a vast body of evidence that shows conclusively that vaccines for measles and other diseases are safe.

    In addition to those who are skeptical of or resistant to vaccinations, the coalition of protesters has included resurrected Tea Party activists, armed militia groups and protesters carrying Confederate battle flags, as well as some merely demanding to open their businesses, according to experts who have been studying the movements.

    “There is a tremendous amount of cross-pollinization of ideas as these factions get to know each other,” said Devin Burghart, who runs the Institute for Research and Education on Human Rights, a Seattle-based research center on far-right groups.

    For example, an adherent of QAnon, a group of conspiracy theorists, was among the first to spread the canard that Bill Gates, the billionaire founder of Microsoft, was behind the creation and spreading of the virus as a means to grab control over the global health system. People opposing mandatory vaccinations quickly picked up on that theme, and Gates has become a new boogeyman of the far right.

    The effect of more people choosing to forgo vaccinations for their children could be devastating for public health during and after the coronavirus pandemic, medical experts say.

    Richard Pan, a California state senator and a physician who wrote the bills tightening vaccine laws in the state, said the activists had simply rushed toward the latest opportunity to push their views, which, if implemented, would lead to more people falling ill.
    “These groups all ultimately have the same message: We want you to get sick,” Pan said.

    Early childhood immunization rates have dropped in recent years, and many parents have already postponed well-child checkups in recent months to avoid doctors’ offices.

    Limaye, the scientist, said she and her colleagues who encourage families to vaccinate children have found the presence of vaccination skeptics at protests “terrifying,” not only because it could encourage families to forgo traditional shots but also because it could spell disaster for any future coronavirus vaccine. If the eventual vaccine requires a high level of vaccinations to establish herd immunity, such as with measles, then getting the public to buy in is vital to eliminating the virus.

    A coronavirus vaccine’s success “is going to be very dependent on whether the public will accept a vaccine or not, because we need a level of herd immunity to prevent a future outbreak,” Limaye said. “Otherwise it’s just going to continue circulating in the population.”
    Majestically enthroned amid the vulgar herd

  2. #2
    Thailand Expat AntRobertson's Avatar
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    Anti-vaxxers are just so fucking dumb.

    Not at all surprisingly there are some here on TD too.

  3. #3
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntRobertson View Post
    Anti-vaxxers are just so fucking dumb.

    Not at all surprisingly there are some here on TD too.
    ...I'm not worried about them: they'll be dead soon...

  4. #4
    Thailand Expat AntRobertson's Avatar
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    Yeah but the problem with this kind of stupid is that it has the habit of taking the non-stupid and innocent out in the crossfire.

  5. #5
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntRobertson View Post
    Yeah but the problem with this kind of stupid is that it has the habit of taking the non-stupid and innocent out in the crossfire.
    ...we need something more targeted: COVID-20+

  6. #6
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    This might be a good place for this.
    It starts at the top.

    Pandemic brings Trump's war on science to the boil – but who will win? | US news | The Guardian

    Trump versus science.

    In his first set of presidential appointments, Obama brought into his administration five science Nobel prizewinners and 25 members of the National Academies of Science, Engineering and Medicine. They became known as the “dream team”.

    By contrast, Holdren said, “Trump is the exact opposite. Science has played no role in virtually all the top appointments he has made.”

    The roll call of officials Trump has entrusted with protecting Americans from Covid-19 tells its own story. With no Nobel laureates in sight, Trump relied initially on Alex Azar, secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), who is a lawyer and former drug company boss; followed by Mike Pence, a career politician and evangelical Christian; and most recently Jared Kushner, the president’s son-in-law, whose expertise lies in real estate.

    Trump’s top team have in turn promoted individuals in their own mold. As Reuters has reported, Azar gave the job of coordinating the fight against coronavirus within HHS, to an individual whose job immediately before joining the Trump administration was as a dog breeder running a small business called Dallas Labradoodles.


    The only explanation I can come up with is that he's intimidated by smart people.
    The people he probably used to call nerds at school and give wedgies to.
    Last edited by Cujo; 04-05-2020 at 08:32 AM.
    “If we stop testing right now we’d have very few cases, if any.” Donald J Trump.

  7. #7
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  8. #8
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    I was stunned at what Rudy came out with. He’s worse than Trump!

  9. #9
    Hansum Man! panama hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman123 View Post
    He’s worse than Trump!
    Fairly well the same . . . Trump does have certain constraints whereas Rudy is simply a loose bat-shit crazy cannon

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    disturbance in the Turnip baldrick's Avatar
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    The American continuing propensity for utter foolishness is quite heartening in that one's belief that imbecility is the greater driving force in the human condition is much bolstered.

    Only the Brexit Brits can give these Septic loons a run for their money.

    Anti-vaxxer activists should be infected with smallpox as an object lesson.... pour encourager les autres.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seekingasylum View Post
    Anti-vaxxer activists should be infected with smallpox as an object lesson.... pour encourager les autres.
    Quite right.

    Now i could be pedantic here and say you will not actually find anyone at all, in the world, who say that all vaccines are bad, evil, or that could be truly labelled as "Anti" any form of vaccination. It's simply a label developed by big pharma to try to ridicule, divide and destroy all opposing voices to their profiteering.

    As for "science" of vaccines, most scientist like to see things as a journey, an evolution of information, taking all sides and finding something in the middle no matter what the results of study says. Not so in this area.

    All these vaccines you old tossers want to see jabbed into babies ($130 a shot for each in the US) have a fundamental issues. It's illegal to run human trials on children and babies, yet it is also illegal in most countries to give pharmacueticals to humans that has not been tested on their age group. A dichotomy I am sure our learned thread poster will admit (except that it is too fucking stupid to contemplate anything other than the shit rachel maddow bleats about). So they test them on children in Africa. AS they are black, I doubt you lot give a fuck about that in that most "progressives" are racists at heart.

    Anyway, Saint Gates has spent a lot on money whitewashing the media of all of this, but some still remains floating around the internet. Less each day. Pop the names of your favourite media outlets into this and see how many millions they have received....
    Awarded Grants - Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation

    Just remember, the money men of Big Tobacco had you all believing for decades that smoking was good for you, with science proving it, and the media full of their adverts promoting their products and point of view that Smoking was Safe. Scientists never lie. The media never lie. One sided "Science" where opposing voices must be shut down is the only way.

    FYI - I personally chose to take some vaccines with proven efficacy and reject others such as flu which are a load of nonsense. If any of our Asia based friends had a Dengue vaccine you're a fucking idiot of the highest order.

    Toodle pip - back to your Gates funded dogma

  13. #13
    Thailand Expat AntRobertson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus
    Now i could be pedantic here and say you will not actually find anyone at all, in the world, who say that all vaccines are bad, evil, or that could be truly labelled as "Anti" any form of vaccination. It's simply a label developed by big pharma to try to ridicule, divide and destroy all opposing voices to their profiteering.
    Now I've seen it all... 'Anti-vaxxers' are actually a conspiracy by vaxxers!


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman123 View Post
    I was stunned at what Rudy came out with. He’s worse than Trump!
    he is a nasty fucker, always been

    Trump is a cream,

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntRobertson View Post
    Now I've seen it all... 'Anti-vaxxers' are actually a conspiracy by vaxxers!


    No, it is a terms used by a media paid huge amounts of money by big pharma to alienate and ridicule people with legitimate concerns about some forms of vaccination, and consent of what can be injected into a person against their will.

    So in your mainstream drivel mind what is an "anti-vaxxer"?

  16. #16
    ความรู้ลึกลับ HuangLao's Avatar
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    Is it any wonder why they're still foolishly struggling with this virus thing, like no one else worldwide.
    The society views most everything/anything in a political uselessness.

  17. #17
    Hansum Man! panama hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuangLao View Post
    The society views most everything/anything in a political uselessness.
    That ain't no Jeff-ism, that is nuthin but the truf. Green owed

  18. #18
    Thailand Expat AntRobertson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus
    So in your mainstream drivel mind what is an "anti-vaxxer"?
    LULZ... 'Believe what I believe or I'll label you for it', says guy who was just complaining about the same thing.

    You're smart enough to post this dribble in a relatively articulate manner but you're not smart enough to see the inherent inconsistencies, logical flaws, fallacies, and your own massive hypocrisy.

  19. #19
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    Science is nothing more than another religion,

    God and the universe is putting the Science upside down when it's confronted to reality and the pull of the universe gravity

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntRobertson View Post
    LULZ... 'Believe what I believe or I'll label you for it', says guy who was just complaining about the same thing.

    You're smart enough to post this dribble in a relatively articulate manner but you're not smart enough to see the inherent inconsistencies, logical flaws, fallacies, and your own massive hypocrisy.
    Now then kiwi boy, you are not talking to a dribbling idiot retired taxi driver, hence you using this pathetic "reduce to the ridiculous" ploy you rely on will not wash.

    There is no hypocrisy. I take vaccines, but do not want to be forced to against my will. My body, my consent is required under WHO guidelines, and UN convention. Surely a know all like you knew this?

    What is the logical flaw in saying that a large industry which make massive amounts of profit from vaccines, which has lobbied to be indemnified against legal action resulting from failure of and harm caused by their products, and invests literally billions in advertising in a media who then push their message, might also be the route of the phrase "Anti-Vaxxer"? Same as the israel lobby created the notion that opposition to apartheid israel makes you a Jew Hater.

    Where is the fallacy? It is certainly on your behalf in your insistence that anyone who expressed any concern about some vaccines therefore objects to ALL vaccines and must be a "Science denier"?

    Surely that is the hypocrisy here? "Believe what ANT believes or I'll label you a tin foil nut case conspiracy theorist Anti VAxxer who wants all babies to die of small pox" or whatever lunacy is floating around you brain.

    Out of passing interest in your next reply, please indicate which of these Vaccines you have, and have boosters for each year or as required?

    1 Hepatitis A,
    2 hepatitis B,
    3 typhoid,
    4 cholera,
    5 yellow fever,
    6 Japanese encephalitis,
    7 rabies,
    8 meningitis,
    9 polio,
    10 measles, mumps and rubella (MMR),
    11 Tdap (tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis),
    12 chickenpox,
    13 shingles,
    14 pneumonia
    15 influenza.

    These are ones the CDC in the US says you must have in Thailand. You got them all? If not, off you pop, you and your family. The Bold Underlined are the ones I have had. Walk the walk lad.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus View Post
    Now then kiwi boy, you are not talking to a dribbling idiot
    Actually he really is Sid Witless.

  22. #22
    Thailand Expat AntRobertson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus
    Now then kiwi boy, you are not talking to a dribbling idiot retired taxi driver, hence you using this pathetic "reduce to the ridiculous" ploy you rely on will not wash.

    There is no hypocrisy. I take vaccines, but do not want to be forced to against my will. My body, my consent is required under WHO guidelines, and UN convention. Surely a know all like you knew this?

    What is the logical flaw in saying that a large industry which make massive amounts of profit from vaccines, which has lobbied to be indemnified against legal action resulting from failure of and harm caused by their products, and invests literally billions in advertising in a media who then push their message, might also be the route of the phrase "Anti-Vaxxer"? Same as the israel lobby created the notion that opposition to apartheid israel makes you a Jew Hater.

    Where is the fallacy? It is certainly on your behalf in your insistence that anyone who expressed any concern about some vaccines therefore objects to ALL vaccines and must be a "Science denier"?

    Surely that is the hypocrisy here? "Believe what ANT believes or I'll label you a tin foil nut case conspiracy theorist Anti VAxxer who wants all babies to die of small pox" or whatever lunacy is floating around you brain.

    Out of passing interest in your next reply, please indicate which of these Vaccines you have, and have boosters for each year or as required?

    1 Hepatitis A,
    2 hepatitis B,
    3 typhoid,
    4 cholera,
    5 yellow fever,
    6 Japanese encephalitis,
    7 rabies,
    8 meningitis,
    9 polio,
    10 measles, mumps and rubella (MMR),
    11 Tdap (tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis),
    12 chickenpox,
    13 shingles,
    14 pneumonia
    15 influenza.

    These are ones the CDC in the US says you must have in Thailand. You got them all? If not, off you pop, you and your family. The Bold Underlined are the ones I have had. Walk the walk lad.
    Good gawd what a load of utter nonsense.

    Take a breath for chrissakes man. You must be dizzy and exhausted from that load of post-shifting and logic gymnastics.

    And then after that shove your specious and spurious 'questions'. Trying to engage conspiracy theorists in a logical and coherent debate is fucking boring and a waste of time -- you are the pigeons strutting about and shitting all over the chess board. Up yer game.

  23. #23
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    Ah ha.

    Thought so. You talk a moderately acceptable game but that's all. Go back to running circles around drunk illiterate wasters

  24. #24
    Thailand Expat AntRobertson's Avatar
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  25. #25
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    My grandparents had their kids back in the days before vaccinations were widely available (in the late 1900s to mid 1920s). Out of 6 kids my maternal grandparents lost 2. Out of 7 kids my paternal grandparents lost 1.

    As my oldest aunt told me many years ago: "In those days everyone had lots of kids. Of course, they had to - everyone lost at least one." It's be about 50 years since she said that to me, but it still sticks in my memory.

    I would like to remind the antivaxers out there to have and extra kid or two, because if they succeed in getting rid of widespread childhood vaccination, everyone will have to get used to losing one or two again.

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