2020 US Presidential Race

**David48atTD** · 25-06-2019, 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

Perhaps we can get Mexico to pay for it.

Yeh ... more fantasy.

So many things for the Dems to use in their attack ads in the Presidential Campaign.

Oh, just for clarity, I think #45 is a ****, a man of straw, good on TV doing the campaign bit, useless at running the Country,
and an international embarrassment to to the friends of the USA.

He's a Salesman, nothing more.

**Buckaroo Banzai** · 25-06-2019, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by David48atTD

Yeh ... more fantasy.

So many things for the Dems to use in their attack ads in the Presidential Campaign.

Oh, just for clarity, I think #45 is a ****, a man of straw, good on TV doing the campaign bit, useless at running the Country,
and an international embarrassment to to the friends of the USA.

He's a Salesman, nothing more.

On the subject at hand,
The average student loan debt upon graduation in the US is $37,000 !!!!!!
That's an incredible drag , a ball and chain, on a young life struggling to get started. Without it young adults could be starting families, buying homes, cars etc, Instead they are debt slaves.
It is unconscionable .. It is a drag on the person and it is a drag on the country.
In the US we have more people in jail than any country in the history of the world. It costs more to keep a person in jail than to put a person through college.
I submitted to you that the government's investment in a free education will have a tenfold ROI in terms of diminished incarceration,(educated people commit less crime) ,diminished burden on government services, higher quality of life for the victims of crime, and the recipients of the education.
and any amount invested would be returned tenfold in increased tax revenue since a college graduate earns almost double what a high school graduate. (Men with bachelor's degrees earn approximately $900,000 more in median lifetime earnings than high school graduates. )

I am not looking for a handout , I started a fund for my daughters education when she was born. But not everyone is as fortunate to be able to do that as I was.
I am not being generous.
I think it is to my advantage that I live in an educated country . Case and point trump being the product of ignorance IMO.

**AntRobertson** · 25-06-2019, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

That's an incredible drag , a ball and chain, on a young life struggling to get started. Without it young adults could be starting families, buying homes, cars etc, Instead they are debt slaves.

That's a good point and it's not one limited to just the US: same is happening in NZ, Aust, UK etc.

Meanwhile Baby boomers who had access to free education and cheap housing criticize Generation X and Millennials as being lazy and feckless because they're drowning in debt before they even begin.

**David48atTD** · 25-06-2019, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

Men with bachelor's degrees earn approximately $900,000 more in median lifetime earnings than high school graduates.

Doesn't that very statement indicate that a student loan is affordable and repayable?

The Australian system which I'm familiar with works on the principle that the federal government will fund
a bachelor level degree.

In England ... You only start repaying your loan once you've graduated and you're earning more than £21,000 a year.

In Australia ... To make your loan repayments for 2018-19, the threshold is set at AUD $51,957

For Australia, the more you earn, the more you pay back per year.
At the AUD $51,957 entry threshold, the repayment rate is 2%

Increasing incrementally to $107,214 and above where you are expected to pay back 8% of the loan per year.
https://www.studyassist.gov.au/payin...loan-repayment

**Buckaroo Banzai** · 25-06-2019, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by David48atTD

Doesn't that very statement indicate that a student loan is affordable and repayable?

Not at the beginning of a young adult's career. One of the best ways IMO to start a careers is to take an unpaid intern position. Thus gaining experience,making connections, see and be seen.
I have several family members who were fortunate enough to be able to afford to do that and have thus established successful careers. ,
How can someone with a $37,000 ball and chain around their neck take an unpaid position.

Originally Posted by David48atTD

The Australian system which I'm familiar with works on the principle that the federal government will fund
a bachelor level degree.

Not in the US

Originally Posted by David48atTD

In England ... You only start repaying your loan once you've graduated and you're earning more than £21,000 a year.

Never mind repaying a loan, can a person even live on that in England?

**David48atTD** · 25-06-2019, 08:01 AM

^ Just for clarification ...

The Australian system which I'm familiar with works on the principle that the federal government will fund
a bachelor level degree

'Fund' as in 'Lend'. I'm not sure about now but they only allowed a loan for the first degree.
Any subsuquent University education, i.e. post grad study doesn't attract any loans.
Pay as you go for them.

**bowie** · 25-06-2019, 08:36 AM

Smple point of order - a loan is a contractural commitment. You are borrowing money and are obligated to Pay The Money Back under the terms and the conditions set in the contract (loan documents), that's why you affix your signature to the contractural loan agreement.

On the "on topic" subject of the 2020 election cycle - promising loan forgiveness (or taxing the "rich", or lowering your taxes) is naught more than a blatant attempt to Buy Votes by giving "stuff" away.

**AntRobertson** · 25-06-2019, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by bowie

Smple point of order - a loan is a contractural commitment. You are borrowing money and are obligated to Pay The Money Back under the terms and the conditions set in the contract (loan documents), that's why you affix your signature to the contractural loan agreement.

Which nobody was disputing.

**Klondyke** · 25-06-2019, 10:53 AM

(but the voters like rather to know whom he wants to bomb...)

Sanders, liberals, out with bill to cancel student debt

WASHINGTON (AP) — Days before the first Democratic presidential debates, Sen. Bernie Sanders and House progressives rolled out legislation to cancel all student debt, going farther than a signature proposal by Sen. Elizabeth Warren as the two jockey for support from the party’s liberal base .

By canceling all student loans, Sanders says the proposal would address an economic burden for 45 million Americans. The key difference is that Warren’s plan considers the income of the borrowers, canceling $50,000 in debt for those earning less than $100,000 per year and affecting an estimated 42 million people in the U.S.

Questions face both candidates about how to pay for all of that plus their proposals for free tuition at public colleges and universities. But the battling ideas highlight the rivalry between senators who have made fighting economic inequality the cornerstones of their 2020 presidential campaigns.

Sanders vowed at a Monday news conference that his plan “completely eliminates student debt in this country and the absurdity of sentencing an entire generation, the millennial generation, to a lifetime of debt for the crime of doing the right thing. And that is going out and getting a higher education.” He appeared alongside the proposal’s House sponsors, Reps. Ilhan Omar, D-Minn., Pramila Jayapal, D-Wash., and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., with American Federation of Teachers President Randi Weingarten also in attendance.

His bill and Warren’s plan are part of their broader appeal to liberal voters on issues such as health care, technology and education.

That appeal is likely to be fleshed out this week during the first Democratic debates . Twenty candidates are set for the showdown, with Warren part of the lineup on Wednesday and Sanders appearing a day later. The events come as Warren appears to be cutting into Sanders’ support from the left.

Sanders’ effort at one-upmanship on student loans, named the College For All Act, would cancel $1.6 trillion of debt and save the average borrower about $3,000 a year, according to materials obtained by The Associated Press. The result would be a stimulus that allows millennials in particular to invest in homes and cars that they wouldn’t otherwise be able to afford. It would cost $2.2 billion and be paid for — and then some — by a series of taxes on such things as stock trades, bonds and derivatives, according to the proposal.

The universal debt relief is designed partly around the idea that it would mostly benefit Americans who can’t afford college tuition without loans, according to a senior Democratic aide who spoke on condition of anonymity because the legislation wasn’t yet public.

Warren’s plan, which she plans to introduce as legislation alongside Rep. Jim Clyburn, D-S.C., would be paid for by imposing a 2% fee on fortunes greater than $50 million. Warren projects the levy would raise $2.75 trillion over 10 years, enough to pay for a universal child-care plan, free tuition at public colleges and universities, and student loan debt forgiveness for an estimated 42 million Americans — with revenue left over. Critics say top earners would find ways around such penalties.

One key difference between Sanders’ and Warren’s plans is their differing treatment of high earners: Warren wrote that her plan would offer “no debt cancellation to people with household income above $250,000,” or the top 5%. Sanders would extend the benefit even to wealthy borrowers.

Asked on Monday about that decision, Sanders told reporters that he believes in “universality” and added: “In other areas we are going to demand that the wealthy and large corporations start paying their fair share in taxes.”

https://apnews.com/a5cb6665aa1d4e4c961f84b66a2ed730

**Buckaroo Banzai** · 25-06-2019, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by bowie

Smple point of order - a loan is a contractural commitment. You are borrowing money and are obligated to Pay The Money Back under the terms and the conditions set in the contract (loan documents), that's why you affix your signature to the contractural loan agreement.

On the "on topic" subject of the 2020 election cycle - promising loan forgiveness (or taxing the "rich", or lowering your taxes) is naught more than a blatant attempt to Buy Votes by giving "stuff" away.

You describing a bilateral contract where both parties have to perform. when one side fails to perform we have a non performing contract and there are consequences,
yet when the banks failed to perform on their side of the contract we bailed them out with taxpayer money.
Why is it that bailing out the taxpayer is Buying votes, but bailing out the money changers is prudent fiscal policy.

**raycarey** · 25-06-2019, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by David48atTD

I paid off my student loan.

errr....thanks for sharing.

but was your student loan made, insured or guaranteed by the US federal govt, newbie dave?

**harrybarracuda** · 25-06-2019, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by David48atTD

^ For me, I'm all in favour of a Social Safety net.
As a society we should take care of those who are significantly disadvantaged.

But I'm not a fan of social generosity, which, for me, is the wiping of Student Loans.

US $1,600,000,000,000 ... that's a lot of zeros.

How is that fair on the students who did pay back their loan?

As a quick 'back of the envelope calculation', the student loan total debt divided by the number of US citizens at/over the age of 16
works out at $6,500 per person.

Yes, I know Bernie said Wall St would pay for it, but that economic fantasy, not economic reality.

IMHO

Think of it as "trickle down economics". Instead of having to make loan payments, they can spend money, the fundamental driver of the US economy.

**bowie** · 27-06-2019, 09:34 AM

MIAMI — Former Obama Cabinet official Julian Castro challenged fellow Democratic presidential candidates on Wednesday to decriminalize illegal immigration, saying jumping the border shouldn’t be enough to earn someone jail time.

"open the doors and let 'em in"

one flew east, one flew west, and one flew over...

**harrybarracuda** · 27-06-2019, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by bowie

On the "on topic" subject of the 2020 election cycle - promising loan forgiveness (or taxing the "rich", or lowering your taxes) is naught more than a blatant attempt to Buy Votes by giving "stuff" away.

Every politician makes elections promises they can't or don't intend to keep.

**bowie** · 27-06-2019, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Every politician makes promises they can't or don't intend to keep.

Fixed That.

Yup, you are spot on. We, the "voting public" do have short attention spans and memories modeled after swiss cheese.

**harrybarracuda** · 27-06-2019, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by bowie

Fixed That.

Yup, you are spot on. We, the "voting public" do have short attention spans and memories modeled after swiss cheese.

Seppos of course take that to extremes, otherwise how would a witless bald orange cunto get elected?

**bowie** · 27-06-2019, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

how would a witless bald orange cunto get elected?

Quite simple - the American people were/are sick and tired of "Politics-as-Usual" - they didn't vote for Trump as much as they voted against the Clinton and Bush Dynasties.

The Americans choose Trump, a non-politician, businessman, reality TV star over the competition: our illustrious party line, career politician presidential Wanna Be's; namely - Huckabee, Pataki, Walker, Kasich, Santorum, Perry, Paul, Rubio, Graham, Jindal, Fiorina, Gilmore, Carson, Christie, Romney, Bush, Cruz, Lieberman, Sanders, Clinton, O’Malley, Chafee, Webb, Lessig, Perot, Biden, Warren

And, it doesn't matter at this point in time - Fact, Trump won and sits in the White House. Doesn't really matter how he won or what excuses the "losers" come up with for his win.

All that matters is did he live up to the voting public's expectations? Will they, or won't they, give him a second term?

**David48atTD** · 27-06-2019, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by bowie

Quite simple - the American people were/are sick and tired of "Politics-as-Usual" - they didn't vote for Trump as much as they voted against the Clinton and Bush Dynasties.

The Americans choose Trump, a non-politician, businessman, reality TV star over the competition: our illustrious party line, career politician presidential Wanna Be's; namely - Huckabee, Pataki, Walker, Kasich, Santorum, Perry, Paul, Rubio, Graham, Jindal, Fiorina, Gilmore, Carson, Christie, Romney, Bush, Cruz, Lieberman, Sanders, Clinton, O’Malley, Chafee, Webb, Lessig, Perot, Biden, Warren

And, it doesn't matter at this point in time - Fact, Trump won and sits in the White House. Doesn't really matter how he won or what excuses the "losers" come up with for his win.

All that matters is did he live up to the voting public's expectations? Will they, or won't they, give him a second term?

Fair bit of truth in that.

**bsnub** · 27-06-2019, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by David48atTD

Fair bit of truth in that.

The reality of it all is that if the DNC and Debbie Wasserman-Shultz did not stack the deck in Hillary's favor and Sanders got the nomination he would have crushed Drumpf in the general election. Lets face it 44k people in a handful of states decided this election. The popular vote was a landslide for Hillary.

**Dragonfly** · 27-06-2019, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by bowie

Quite simple - the American people were/are sick and tired of "Politics-as-Usual" - they didn't vote for Trump as much as they voted against the Clinton and Bush Dynasties.

The Americans choose Trump, a non-politician, businessman, reality TV star over the competition: our illustrious party line, career politician presidential Wanna Be's; namely - Huckabee, Pataki, Walker, Kasich, Santorum, Perry, Paul, Rubio, Graham, Jindal, Fiorina, Gilmore, Carson, Christie, Romney, Bush, Cruz, Lieberman, Sanders, Clinton, O’Malley, Chafee, Webb, Lessig, Perot, Biden, Warren

And, it doesn't matter at this point in time - Fact, Trump won and sits in the White House. Doesn't really matter how he won or what excuses the "losers" come up with for his win.

All that matters is did he live up to the voting public's expectations? Will they, or won't they, give him a second term?

amen to that,

you would think the Dems would have learned from their mistakes, apparently not

Trump is in for another 4 years of fun and political disruption

**Dragonfly** · 27-06-2019, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by bsnub

The reality of it all is that if the DNC and Debbie Wasserman-Shultz did not stack the deck in Hillary's favor and Sanders got the nomination he would have crushed Drumpf in the general election. Lets face it 44k people in a handful of states decided this election. The popular vote was a landslide for Hillary.

see popular vote don't always work, and we would have landed with the wrong candidate

**bsnub** · 27-06-2019, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

see popular vote don't always work, and we would have landed with the wrong candidate

Fuck off you little Belgian twat.

**Dragonfly** · 27-06-2019, 05:25 PM

**bowie** · 27-06-2019, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by bsnub

if the DNC and Debbie Wasserman-Shultz did not stack the deck in Hillary's favor and Sanders got the nomination he would have...

Well, lost too.

Sanders wouldn’t and couldn’t win because he is promoting a socialist platform. Nothing wrong with that – medicare for all will occur – eventually. Sanders problem is that, although his ideology is good, he identifies it as socialism – socialism is a four letter word in the USA. We refuse to acknowledge socialist countries that work and concentrate on the abject failures of socialism.

The Clinton Dynasty – old boy network. Of course, the dems’ll put up Hillary.

The Repubs knew that their good ole boy Jeb was going to be facing off against Hill and they were gonna use philandering Bills “fiddling around” and Hills acceptance of it to win the presidency.

But, Nobody at all expected that dark horse political newbie Trump to do anything other than maybe a weak showing.

Trump – the reality TV star and successful businessman did his due diligence, read the rule book, put the proper people in the proper slots, used a “produce or gone” businessman’s approach to his election team, and, well, how ‘bout that He Won. Oh yea, Hill won the popular vote. However, in the electoral college (the only game in town) she came in “Second”. Yup, second place aka “First Loser”.

Good ole Electoral College aka the rules of the game. Polls be damned. Somehow the narrowest path to 270 turned into 300+ overnight. Dem’s really shoulda read the rule book.

Yup, participating in the USA Presidential Election – not playing horseshoes or tossing hand grenades. Only Win counts, place and show, well, first and second losers. hmm... anyone interested in some fireworks on the Hudson?

**bsnub** · 27-06-2019, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by bowie

Sanders wouldn’t and couldn’t win because he is promoting a socialist platform.

You are wrong he is far more popular in the five battleground states that drumpf eked out a narrow victory. He would have crushed drumpf and will in 2020 if he is the nominee.

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