Thread: Reverse of Progress by fundamnentalism

2 of my closest now deceased friends were born in Alex which along with Cairo was a go to destination, one schoolfriend's dad was a bank officer expelled by Nasser with italian mother other took the ship to Melbourne after the Suez mess.

The sights and scens not unlike any developed country at that time 60 years back



Only later the Brotherhood, The wahabis and salafist pushed women and girls back under the veil.It's purdah on the Orient excess.

Yes, countries change and countries go through different fashions, and different political, cultural and religious forces are at play all over the world and countries react to those in different ways. Up to them. It's what makes the world interesting.

The Quran has not been changed, hence the problems Islam causes throughout the world.

Originally Posted by Neverna

Yes, countries change

The American Dream is a national ethos of the United States, the set of ideals (democracy, rights, liberty, opportunity and equality)...

Originally Posted by Dragonfly94

The Quran has not been changed, hence the problems Islam causes throughout the world.

The thread title is "Reverse of Progress by fundamnentalism" so the question is, what is "progress" and who decides what exactly that is?

Arab and Muslim countries have chosen their own courses, with significant influence, input and interference from other countries.
As in other countries, Arab and Muslim countries are not homogenised societies.

Originally Posted by david44

Only later the Brotherhood, The wahabis and salafist

One must ask the question: What drove them to extremism?
I have no doubt the British and the US had much to do with it with their heavy-handed stealing of resources (including the gifting of Palestine to European refugees).
Freedom fighters need a catchcry to rouse the masses. What better catchcry than the creed of the great unwashed.
Whether it be Catholicism in Northern Ireland or Santaria in Cuba (pull me up on that one, it's off the top of my head ), when a movement has need to get the people on it's side, the tried and tested methods of religious dogma work.

The progressives, about 5% of them are looked down on as not real Muslims. The Quran needs to be ripped apart and all the violence taken out of it, trouble with that would be there would be very little left in it

The problem is and always will be use of Religion a tool to drive agendas not necessarily religious in nature, been going on since the dawn of time as a tool invented my man to control. A book or story will alway be open to interpretation depending on the way the narrative is read or used contextually. I agree with Nev, change is inevitable, some good some bad it just depends on your perspective.

Originally Posted by Dragonfly94

The progressives, about 5% of them are looked down on as not real Muslims. The Quran needs to be ripped apart and all the violence taken out of it, trouble with that would be there would be very little left in it

Remember they're about 600 years behind the bible. And that had its share of violent adherents (some would argue it still does).

Originally Posted by Maanaam

One must ask the question: What drove them to extremism?

Originally Posted by Dragonfly94

The progressives, about 5% of them are looked down on as not real Muslims.

Extremism/extremists .... progressives ...

Who is what in the Muslim world? Muslims are not all the same and there are even differences in those supporting political Islam (there are differences even between different branches of the Muslim Brotherhood) or those wanting a return to the "fundamentals" of Islam. Very few are extreme or violent. It's not about what you or they want, but on how they wish to achieve their goals (ie, violently or by non-violent means).

Originally Posted by Neverna

Yes, countries change and countries go through different fashions, and different political, cultural and religious forces are at play all over the world and countries react to those in different ways. Up to them. It's what makes the world interesting.

Huh? What ^,... in heavens name,...could possibly be the "interesting" factor, existing within the socially regressive dynamic of any 21st. Century culture,
...all things of the current world "thoughtfully" considered? More akin to redundantly boring human behavior,...instead.

Originally Posted by TuskegeeBen

Huh? What ^,... in heavens name,...could possibly be the "interesting" factor, existing within the socially regressive dynamic of any 21st. Century culture,
...all things of the current world "thoughtfully" considered? More akin to redundantly boring human behavior,...instead.

I'm not surprised it's over your head, Benny.

Originally Posted by Neverna

Extremism/extremists .... progressives ...

Who is what in the Muslim world? Muslims are not all the same and there are even differences in those supporting political Islam (there are differences even between different branches of the Muslim Brotherhood) or those wanting a return to the "fundamentals" of Islam. Very few are extreme or violent. It's not about what you or they want, but on how they wish to achieve their goals (ie, violently or by non-violent means).

Can't rework the deeply conditioned and ignorant, Nev...
As most of what they have attained has been adopted forcibly, less learned naturally.

Your candid attempts are admirable, among this course and crowd.
Yet, I believe one shouldn't be bothered to readjust or spark connections that don't exist anyway.

Very few will find their way and most certainly the greater percentage will succumb to the constrains of controlled and fabricated consciousness.
Sad, the duped and dumbed down are the majority.

Cheers, mate....

^If you stapled your ears back, you'd be able to get your head a bit further up your own (and other posters) arses. Just 'saying.

Cannot really blame Wahabism on the Americans considering he preched in 1700s

While many Europeans arrived Palestine after WW2 many arrived before, Leabanon was a French Colony and Gaza under teh British Empire.

It is interesting in times of rapid change that social conservatives react as we can see in E Europe and Asia

Many things that are acceptable in individual choice in the educated developed mainly democratic republics were once anathema

Ability for all to vote for the head of state
No capital punishment ( in case of unfixable miscarriage)
To peacefully practice your private beliefs in private, backed by a constiutional right enforceable in court
Habeas Corpus
Non political courts separate from government
Right to leave your homeland, access to passports at affordable price etc
Right to marry freely
Right of adults to own real estate property and intellectual property

There are very few countries that tick all the boxes France Germany,Austria, Czech Republic Finland Ireland Greenland Iceland come to mind and the only one with a half decent climate Portugal

In Poland Macedonia Slovakia we are seeing courts intimidated and same sex marriage and access to abortion contraception is less free

Originally Posted by Maanaam

One must ask the question: What drove them to extremism?

Lets not ignore this question.
Iran was modern and forward-thinking until the Brits screwed them over their oil. Then to get some traction for reaction, Islam was used.
No need to mention the Brits wrt Palestine and Jerusalem which stirred up a whole heap of anti-West sentiment, once again Islam the vehicle.
Then late modern history with the US in it's pro-Israel vendettas...again stirring up (understandable) resistance and religion is again the vehicle to get the masses motivated.

It's very easy to see the radicalism and violence of a part of Islam, but many do not want to look at the root cause.

Originally Posted by david44

Cannot really blame Wahabism on the Americans considering he preched in 1700s

Sorry, that's sophistry. Wahabism would not have gained latter day traction had not there been resentment towards the West.

Originally Posted by HuangLao

Can't rework the deeply conditioned and ignorant, Nev...
As most of what they have attained has been adopted forcibly, less learned naturally.

Your candid attempts are admirable, among this course and crowd.
Yet, I believe one shouldn't be bothered to readjust or spark connections that don't exist anyway.

Very few will find their way and most certainly the greater percentage will succumb to the constraints of controlled and fabricated consciousness.
Sad, the duped and dumbed down are the majority.

Cheers, mate....

Originally Posted by Maanaam

Wahabism would not have gained latter day traction had not there been resentment towards the West.

The House of Saud and Wahabism are closely linked in history. Look at the history of the country, its foundation and the roles and influence of Britain and France there in the early 20th century.

Originally Posted by Neverna

The House of Saud and Wahabism are closely linked in history. Look at the history of the country, its foundation and the roles and influence of Britain and France there in the early 20th century.

Yes. When I said "traction" I was referring to using that particular flavour of the faith to get adherants to be (what we now call) radical Islamist.
Or maybe I'm talking out of my arse , I'm not a history buff ...I'm trying to make a point about radical Islam being instigated by Western antagonism and my historical flaws aside, I think the point is valid.
Wahabism, whateverism in Islam would not be so violent nor so anti-West if Britain and the US had not stirred them up to be popular movements.
Wahabism may have just been an oil-rich country that didn't allow women to drive, and who would worry too much about that? But with US and Brit shit, it got international.

Originally Posted by Maanaam

Or maybe I'm talking out of my arse , I'm not a history buff ...I'm trying to make a point about radical Islam being instigated by Western antagonism and my historical flaws aside, I think the point is valid.

I don't think radical Islam was instigated by Western antagonism. As far as I recall, Sayyid Qutb is the father of radical Islam. Read his book "Milestones", which he wrote in an Egyptian prison (in 1964 I think). Nothing to do with western antagonism.

Originally Posted by Maanaam

Lets not ignore this question.
Iran was modern and forward-thinking until the Brits screwed them over their oil. Then to get some traction for reaction, Islam was used.
No need to mention the Brits wrt Palestine and Jerusalem which stirred up a whole heap of anti-West sentiment, once again Islam the vehicle.
Then late modern history with the US in it's pro-Israel vendettas...again stirring up (understandable) resistance and religion is again the vehicle to get the masses motivated.

It's very easy to see the radicalism and violence of a part of Islam, but many do not want to look at the root cause.

Manny,

You are absolutely right, they'd only been fukin themselves over at tribal level over territory and slavery until the evil Brits and west interfered.

Originally Posted by Neverna

I don't think radical Islam was instigated by Western antagonism. As far as I recall, Sayyid Qutb is the father of radical Islam. Read his book "Milestones", which he wrote in an Egyptian prison (in 1964 I think). Nothing to do with the West.

I'm not familiar with the book.
1964, Egyptian prison....Hmmm...are you sure he was not pissed off with Israel and the Brit's hand in Israel's creation? Or even earlier acts by the Brits in Egypt?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milestones_(book)

You can also download the book for free from the Internet. There seems to be plenty of sources.