Thread: The Deep State

A decent debate. Keep it up folks.

^^^An article (not very well) written by former presidential candidate Gary Hart (until he got caught lying about his affair) he wouldn't be biased in the slightest would he? you can do better than that, there's enough out there to support your blinkered POV.

Originally Posted by misskit

So you think Peter Dale Scott, a poet, is more realistic about the US political/bureaucratic system.

Yes.

Originally Posted by misskit

Gary Hart is chair emeritus of the American Security Project, cochair of the U.S. Commission on National Security for the 21st Century and a former member of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

The 'Deep State' Conspiracy Is a Joke | The National Interest

A Deep State player says Deep State Conspiracy is a joke. Ok then...I'm convinced.

Originally Posted by misskit

Russia encourages US ‘deep state’ conspiracy on Twitter to ‘push narrative’

RUSSIA-influenced Twitter accounts are seeking to rile up Donald Trump supporters against “deep state” faces to stoke divisions and distrust against people in power and regular Americans.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...in-white-house

You have proven your point with this factual link - Hamilton 68 - never been wrong! have they? who is Hamilton 68? Not one of my usual sources for ground breaking news!

Originally Posted by Airportwo

who is Hamilton 68?

Advisory Council

The bipartisan, transatlantic advisory council brings decades of experience in national security, intelligence, cybersecurity, Russia, Europe, and politics to inform the work of the initiative. The Council will provide overall advice, guidance, and direction, and meet to examine the findings of the effort and discuss overarching Russian doctrine and strategy and identify areas for further exploration. The Advisory Council will be supported by a technical advisory committee that will include experts on disinformation, cybersecurity, illicit finance, and other relevant areas.
The Alliance for Securing Democracy is currently funded by a group of American private individuals and small family foundations from across the political spectrum and housed at The German Marshall Fund of the United States.

About | The German Marshall Fund of the United States

No actual names though...sounds legit.

Originally Posted by SKkin

A Deep State player says Deep State Conspiracy is a joke

No more of a joke than a tried and true lefty, conspiracy advocate, and poet criticising the US.

Originally Posted by Airportwo

Do you actually believe there is no "deep state" and that the "President" actually calls the shots and sets policy? surely you are not that naive, are you?

A revealing comment.

Fear of appearing naive is part of what drives the loons towards these tin foil theories.

The more fruitloop the theory the more attractive it is to the dribbling tin-foiler as it requires an even greater leap of the imagination to actually believe it could possibly be true and therefore an even greater feat of outwitting the ever lurking danger of imagined naivety.

Originally Posted by Looper

A revealing comment.

Fear of appearing naive is part of what drives the loons towards these tin foil theories.

The more fruitloop the theory the more attractive it is to the dribbling tin-foiler as it requires an even greater leap of the imagination to actually believe it could possibly be true and therefore an even greater feat of outwitting the ever lurking danger of imagined naivety.

& a revealing post, fear of appearing to be different is what drives people to follow the official story - a good education (indoctrination period) generally destroys any ability to actually think for themselves, are you another "plank" who believes whatever he is told regardless of what the facts are? Governments are so trust worthy arn't they why would you not believe them? you will need a "tin hat" though if you decide to start thinking for yourself rather than following the pack, being very well led I have to say
PS. I don't "dribble"

Originally Posted by misskit

Names Experts | The German Marshall Fund of the United States

This thread isn't about Hamilton 88, though. It is about the "Deep State."

Some sound chaps on that "fund' have to give them due credit for their service, sure there there will be no remuneration, sure their meetings will be 'secure" with the number that are in the security business, a dubious chap might wonder if they were in it for the best interests of all............... Never mind - sure they are..............

Originally Posted by misskit

This thread isn't about Hamilton 88, though. It is about the "Deep State."

Since I "started" the thread...can't I post about whatever floats my boat?

Originally Posted by misskit

Experts | The German Marshall Fund of the United States

Ahhh, here's a usual suspect(deep state player and beneficiary):

Peter Chase
Peter Chase | The German Marshall Fund of the United States

Policy...anyone want to read between the lines here?

GMF’s work helps shape policy on both sides of the Atlantic and around the world. GMF staff and fellows have expertise in a wide range of subjects, from security to democracy and from energy to trade, and a wide range of regions, from North America to Asia and from Europe to the Wider Atlantic Basin. Their research and analysis in these areas is published in international media and GMF’s own publication series.
Convening events are some of GMF’s most effective tools to build bridges in the transatlantic policymaking community. Ranging from small lunch gatherings to full weekend conferences for hundreds of participants, GMF’s events bring together some of the most influential U.S., European, and global political, corporate, media, and intellectual leaders to address pressing challenges currently facing both sides of the Atlantic.

Originally Posted by SKkin

Since I "started" the thread...can't I post about whatever floats my boat?

Not if you want me to play. You just throw out this and that but you don’t put together anything. If I said Woody Woodpecker was my source, you would claim he is deep state but not back it up.

Originally Posted by SKkin

Since I "started" the thread...can't I post about whatever floats my boat?

No. Boat stuff should go in the scuba forum. Deep state macaroni in cheese recipe in da kitchen.

Here's the rubber hitting the road:

"America’s deep state is completely corrupt: it exists to sell out the public interest, and includes both major political parties as well as government officials."

"What makes the deep state so successful? It wins no matter who is in power, by creating bipartisan-supported money pits within the system. Monetizing the completely unnecessary and hideously expensive global war on terror benefits the senior government officials, beltway industries, and financial services that feed off it. Because it is essential to keep the money flowing, the deep state persists in promoting policies that make no sense, to include the unwinnable wars currently enjoying marquee status in Iraq/Syria and Afghanistan. The deep state knows that a fearful public will buy its product and does not even have to make much of an effort to sell it."

~ Giraldi July 2015

from one of my posts above...

Originally Posted by SKkin

Here's the rubber hitting the road:

"America’s deep state is completely corrupt: it exists to sell out the public interest, and includes both major political parties as well as government officials."

"What makes the deep state so successful? It wins no matter who is in power, by creating bipartisan-supported money pits within the system. Monetizing the completely unnecessary and hideously expensive global war on terror benefits the senior government officials, beltway industries, and financial services that feed off it. Because it is essential to keep the money flowing, the deep state persists in promoting policies that make no sense, to include the unwinnable wars currently enjoying marquee status in Iraq/Syria and Afghanistan. The deep state knows that a fearful public will buy its product and does not even have to make much of an effort to sell it."

~ Giraldi July 2015

from one of my posts above...

You might call them unwinnable wars, but the unfortunate fact is that without the US to prop them up, Afghanistan and Iraq are ripe for the IS taking.

Would have been better to leave Saddam in power and just bomb the shit out of the Taliban and anything else worth levelling.

Originally Posted by misskit

Not if you want me to play.

?????

^ While Scott is well spoken, he does indeed fall into the tin foil hat nutter category with his JFK conspiracy. Because he is an intellectual doesn't mean he can't be wrong.

This "Deep State" nonsense is everywhere now. Like I mentioned before, what is being called the deep state is just the entrenched US bureacracy.



Here. I found an item in the Miami Herald which explains the "Deep State" nicely. I suppose now you will reply with Glenn Garvin and the Miami Herald are owned and operated by the Deep State.

Is the Deep State real — and is it really at war with Donald Trump?



President Donald Trump’s son Eric was probably trying to make a joke when, on the day after New Year’s, he complained that his Twitter account was suggesting he start following Hillary Clinton, former President Barack Obama and talk show host Ellen DeGeneres, none of them exactly known for their affection for the Trump family. “Shocking,” declared young Trump, deadpan, following it with the sinister hashtag #DeepState.


But Twitter is no place for nuance, and his message unleashed a firestorm of angry tweets from anti-Trumpers, calling him a paranoid idiot and worse. Among them was a reply from the famously droll DeGeneres. “What is the Deep State?” she asked. “Is it near Dollywood? Cause I’m in, if it is.”


DeGeneres’ confusion is understandable. A couple of years ago, the only Americans who were familiar with the term Deep State were a handful of against-the-current political scientists and the readers of an obscure comic book about a wing of the FBI dedicated to covering up the fact that Russia beat America to the moon.


But since then, Deep State has entered the public lexicon with a vengeance. Congressmen promise to bust it to pieces. Trump says it’s taken control of the FBI. Right-wing podcasts warn it’s going to kill us all. Left-wing commentators grumble that their concept has been stolen and turned into a cartoon.



“You’ve got this strange meeting of the crazy left and the crazy right and they’re all onto this Deep State thing, and it’s entered into public parlance,” says journalist-historian Max Holland, author of books on Watergate and the Kennedy assassination. “It used to be that crazy conspiracy thinking was mostly kept in one little box labeled JFK ASSASSINATION, but now it’s everywhere.”


If that’s an exaggeration, it’s not by much. An ABC News/Washington Post poll last year showed that nearly half the people in America believe a Deep State — defined as “military, intelligence and government officials who try to secretly manipulate government policy” — is working behind the facade of the constitutional U.S. government.


The definition used by the poll does not necessarily match those used in public debate. What, exactly, the Deep State is depends on whom you talk to, from judicious political scientists who talk wonkily of the competing interests of government bureaucracies to wing-nuts like the guest on the uber-conservative Alex Jones radio show who wailed, “Trump will be killed. … They’re going to kill us, they’re going to kill him, they’re going to kill everybody!”


Though Trump and his allies have popularized the term, referring to what they believe is a covert coalition of government officials and institutions and their allies in big media organizations who are trying to thwart his policies, the concept of the Deep State precedes them by many years.


It originated in the 1920s to describe the iron-fisted clique of security officials and gangsters who pulled the strings — bloodily, if necessary — of Turkey’s puppet civilian government. The first to apply it to the United States was Peter Dale Scott, a leftist University of California scholar, in his 2007 book “The Road to 9/11,” which wove a dark tapestry of covert conspiracy from events as diverse as the Kennedy assassination, Watergate and the Iran-contra scandal.


“There’s nothing crazy about the idea of the Deep State, of the idea that elites inside and outside the government wield power not assigned to them by the Constitution, irrespective of the will of voters,” Scott told the Miami Herald. “The way the Trump people are using it may be cartoonish, but the idea isn’t.”


He has plenty of respectable company in thinking so, including at least one former U.S. president. In 1961, more than four decades before Scott’s book, President Eisenhower warned the nation that “we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military–industrial complex.”


“Eisenhower didn’t use the phrase, but he’s definitely talking about a Deep State there,” says Joseph Uscinski, a University of Miami political scientist. “This is an idea that has been around for a long time.”


That doesn’t necessarily make it correct, though, Uscinski adds, particularly in the somewhat casual way Trump and his supporters use the term.


“If you say the president faces bureaucratic resistance to his programs, that’s reasonably true,” says Uscinski. “If you say government bureaucracies have their own agendas, that’s reasonably true. If you say a secret cabal in the FBI is trying to take down the president — well, that could be true. But you can’t just say it, you’ve got to provide evidence.”


Not so long ago, the idea of the Deep State would have been dismissed out of hand by most Americans. In fact, it was. In 1956, sociologist C. Wright Mills published a study called “The Power Elite,” which began: “The powers of ordinary men are circumscribed by the everyday worlds in which they live, yet even in these rounds of job, family and neighborhood they often seem driven by forces they can neither understand nor govern.”


Mills’ Deep State-ish argument — that the country was actually ruled by an interlocking web of individuals from elite families who went to the same prep schools and universities, joined the same secret societies or eating clubs, sat on the same corporate boards and often intermarried — was initially dismissed as pure crackpot by respectable academia and journalism. The New York Times Book Review called it “an angry cartoon,” Time magazine labeled it “sociological mumbo jumbo.”


But within a decade, most college political science departments were assigning their students reading from Mills’ book. Its influence extended well beyond U.S. borders: Fidel Castro was an enthusiastic reader, and his speeches cadged from it, though without giving credit.


Revelations over the past 50 years about the dark underbelly of the U.S. government have undoubtedly opened American minds to more conspiratorial interpretations of the way Washington works. Does it sound crazy to compare the United States government to that of a lawless, coup-happy country like Turkey? Maybe.


But is that any less crazy than the fact — emphasis on fact — that the Pentagon planted a spy in the Nixon White House to steal secrets from the wastebaskets? Or that the CIA was dosing unsuspecting civilians with LSD to see if it would make them receptive to mind control? Or that the government was spying on people through their Xbox video games? (Edward Snowden, the rogue National Security Agency subcontractor who spilled the secrets about the Xbox, told The Nation magazine: “There’s definitely a Deep State. Trust me, I’ve been there.”)


Even observers who are dubious about Trump’s claims that he’s the victim of a massive Washington cabal believe he may be facing a much milder version of the Deep State: stiff resistance from the government’s gargantuan bureaucracy, which, with its civil-service protections, stays in place as presidential administrations come and go.


Long-lived bureaucracies start to resemble living organisms that fight to protect their own turf, from each other and even more from elected officials, which the bureaucrats tend to regard as temporary pests who will be moving on soon.


“The problem gets worse when there are big ideological contrasts from one administration to the next,” says Adam J. White, a research fellow at the Hoover Institution and director of the Center for the Study of the Administrative State at George Mason University.


“For eight years, we had President Obama, possibly the most liberal president in history, and most of the people he hired probably shared his political vision. And now he’s been replaced by a guy who came promising to ‘drain the swamp’ of Washington. Even before President Trump took office, you had people announcing they would form ‘the resistance.’ I’m sure there are problems.


“Practically every president has, to some extent, quarreled with the bureaucracy. I was reading a biography of Henry Kissinger and it had this story about him — before he joined the government himself — going to visit his friend Arthur Schlesinger, who was a member of President John F. Kennedy’s staff. Kissinger says, ‘Hey, how’s it going?’ and Schlesinger answers, ‘It’s just awful, we can’t get any of our programs through the bureaucracy, we’re practically dead in the water.’ So much for the New Frontier!”


What is the Deep State and is it real? | Miami Herald

Originally Posted by misskit

But you can’t just say it, you’ve got to provide evidence.

This sentence, my friend, is where the real rubber hits the road.

Miami Herald deep state - no! But owned and controlled by who? ALL mainstream media is obviously controlled, don't want the peasants to read the truth do we!

As the great man that still walks among us said "The first fifty years of your life you learn, thereafter you find out what total *hit you have been taught"
Guess there are some young folks on here who have a world of discovery in front of them.

Originally Posted by misskit

A couple of years ago[= 2016], the only Americans who were familiar with the term Deep State were a handful of against-the-current political scientists and the readers of an obscure comic book about a wing of the FBI dedicated to covering up the fact that Russia beat America to the moon.

I would dispute that statement alone...in 2016 there were far more Americans than that aware of the term. Thanks to people like Peter Dale Scott, Lofgren and Moyers...and others.

Published 2014:




Here's another opinion of my own. Personally I think Lofgren is a deep state player too. His book and interview with Moyers were a bit of "gatekeeping" in my mind.

steven seagal (yes, that steven seagal) also wrote a book about the *gasp!* deep state....

in the book, we get a Pizzagate-esque explanation of what exactly the Deep State is, when a Mexican official complains, “It is crystal clear to all of us that the [U.S. government] is completely penetrated, and this trafficking of human jihadists is approved by [Obama] himself and being protected by rogue elements of the CIA, FBI and DEA—the same rogue elements that have been smuggling drugs, guns, gold, cash, and small children for the American elite ever since Allen Dulles and J. Edgar Hoover first created a secret state within a state.” In a law enforcement establishment overflowing with traitors intended on bringing down the nation, Arpaio, who is now running for Senate, is here lovingly referenced as one of the only people who can be trusted.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...-arpaio-217031

Originally Posted by misskit

“There’s nothing crazy about the idea of the Deep State, of the idea that elites inside and outside the government wield power not assigned to them by the Constitution, irrespective of the will of voters,” Scott told the Miami Herald. “The way the Trump people are using it may be cartoonish, but the idea isn’t.”

I agree completely with that...(some)Trump people, Alex Jones people, Steven Seagal^, etc., make things "cartoonish" on purpose.

Originally Posted by misskit

a much milder version of the Deep State: stiff resistance from the government’s gargantuan bureaucracy, which, with its civil-service protections, stays in place as presidential administrations come and go.

Is the "milder version" the one that's killing people all over the world?

Originally Posted by Airportwo

Miami Herald deep state - no! But owned and controlled by who?

Owned by the McClatchy Company a publicly traded corporation, NYSE - MNI.

Let's get a Deep State list going now of people mentioned so far on this thread.


Deep State Participants

Mike Lofgren
Donald Trump
Trump Jr.
The National Interest and employees
Gary Hart
German Marshal Fund and employees
Steven Segal
Alex Jones
McClatchy Co. and employees


The Good Guys
P.D. Scott
Phillip Giraldi
Laurent Guyenot


Status not confirmed
Ellen DeGeneres