Thread: Brexit - It's Still On!

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

Every party have been shambolic in this process. The media have been shown up for what they are - ignorant propagandaers. The EU ideologues have shown their colours - their personal ideals and personal privileges are more important than the voting public or citizens' rights. What has been very interesting is how people who claim to be democratic, simply refuse to follow democratic procedures, instead choosing to whinge and whine and use any and every argument/way to avoid following simple democratic process.

We had a vote, Brexit got the highest vote, now get on with it...

and hard Brexit supporters have shown their true colors: isolated loons with no sense of reality and a tendency to support blindly a new form of tyranny

I suspect that Mrs May is canvassing for something, anything, that has a slim chance of getting passed in the commons, simply so that she can cling on to power.
The problem she now has, is even though the no confidence bid is also a loser, there really is nothing passable to cling to.
The very idea of a second referendum is ridiculous. For the Election commission to do it properly, and with any credibility would take far too long. The estimate is between 10 weeks (only in an emergency and not legally binding, with little time to choose the two options and give franchisees time to campaign), and as much as 6 months to do the job properly.
She then faces the task of telling the electorate that, she fucked up their wishes the first time, now she plans to wreck their ambitions again?

Meanwhile we have no MEPs in the EU because the EU assumed we would be out by now. I truly hope the party gets the message across to her that they have no confidence in her despite having no option to vote on that. There are ways to force her out, even if they are unseemly. She deserves to go, pushed or not. Up to her.

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

a: isolated loons with no sense of reality and a tendency to support blindly a new form of tyranny

A perfect description of PMTM. Thank you.

Originally Posted by buriramboy

We won't be leaving end of March that much is clear now, one big stitch up. Doris will never be able to get any version of her deal through, mps will find a way to block a clean Brexit so an extension of A50 it is which the EU will agree to as they don't want a clean Brexit either.

agree, it seems to be the only way forward, extending A50 and they will get it from the 27 members

but the end results will be about the same after the extension

maybe a REF2 after 2 years could be the solution?

Originally Posted by Switch

A perfect description of PMTM. Thank you.

she is indeed, she is trying to be a "populist" leader like Thatcher with Brexit, but that is failing miserably

Originally Posted by lom

In France it was raising of the petrol price that made the people say enough is enough but they did at least revolt against and put the blame on their own president, the Britons have something to learn from that..

and now it's forcing the whole republic to question itself, a lot of heated political debates going on now, it feels like pre-revolutionary and the government could still collapse Bastille style

This on the BBC site was quite digestible

Brexit: What could happen next?

By Peter BarnesSenior Elections and Political Analyst, BBC News

• MPs have voted against Theresa May's Brexit deal by a huge majority. The Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has already called for a vote of no confidence in the government. So what could happen next?

Under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011, UK general elections are only supposed to happen every five years. The next one is due in 2022.
But a vote of no confidence lets MPs vote on whether they want the government to continue. The motion must be worded: "That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty's Government."
If a majority of MPs vote for the motion then it starts a 14-day countdown.
If during that time the current government or any other alternative government cannot win a new vote of confidence, then an early general election would be called.
That election cannot happen for at least 25 working days.
If the government survives the vote of no confidence it could seek a second vote on the same deal, or a similar one. It also has a number of other options.

1. No deal

If nothing else happens, the default position would be a no-deal Brexit.
The law is already in place which means the UK would leave the EU on 29 March 2019.
And, in any case, EU rules mean the UK would leave then.
The government would probably want to pass some legislation to prepare for no-deal but that's not strictly essential.
MPs unhappy with the prospect of a no-deal Brexit defeated the government on 8 January - voting to limit the Treasury's ability to raise certain taxes.
The move is being seen as symbolic - as the government could probably find another way to raise money - but it is an indication that MPs will try to stop no deal.

2. Major renegotiation

The government could propose to negotiate a new Brexit deal.
This would not be a question of carrying out minor tweaks and having a second vote.
Instead, there could be a complete renegotiation that would take some time and might well require an extension of Article 50 to delay Brexit.
This would require two key steps. First, the UK would have to make a request to the EU for an extension. This could be granted but only if all EU countries agree at a vote of the EU Council.
Second, the government would have to table a statutory instrument to change the definition of "exit day" in the EU Withdrawal Act. MPs would get a chance to vote on this change.
If the EU refused to re-enter negotiations, the government would have to plump for one of the other options instead.
The withdrawal agreement - what it all means
Brexit: A really simple guide
Brexit deal: How did your MP vote?

3. Another referendum

The government could instead choose to have another referendum.
As with a renegotiation or early election, this might well require an extension to Article 50. It's already too late to hold a referendum before 29 March.
And it can't just happen automatically. The rules for referendums are set out in a law called the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000.
There would have to be a new piece of legislation to make a referendum happen and to determine the rules, such as who would be allowed to vote.
It couldn't be rushed through, because there has to be time for the Electoral Commission to consider and advise on the referendum question.
The question is then defined in the legislation.
Once the legislation has been passed, the referendum couldn't happen immediately either. There would have to be a statutory "referendum period" before the vote takes place.
Experts at University College London's Constitution Unit suggest that the minimum time for all of the required steps above is about 22 weeks.
Even if that could be shortened a little, it would still take us well beyond the end of March.

4. Call a general election

Theresa May could decide that the best way out of the deadlock would be to hold an early general election - in order to get a political mandate for her deal.
She doesn't have the power just to call an election. But, as in 2017, she could ask MPs to vote for an early election under the terms of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act.
Two-thirds of all MPs would need to support the move. The earliest date for the election would be 25 working days later but it could be after that - the prime minister would choose the precise date.
As with the "renegotiate" plan, this course of action could also involve a request to the EU to extend Article 50.

5. Other possibilities

The European Court of Justice has ruled that it would be legal for the UK to unilaterally revoke Article 50 to cancel Brexit (without the need for agreement from the other 27 EU countries).
With the government still committed to Brexit, it's very likely that a major event such as a further referendum or change of government would have to happen before such a move.
After Theresa May survived a challenge to her leadership, the Conservative Party's rules mean she won't face another for 12 months.
But she could always decide to resign anyway, if she can't get her deal through and she's not prepared to change course.
That would trigger a Conservative leadership campaign which would result in the appointment of a new prime minister.
She might also come under pressure to resign if MPs pass a "censure motion" - that would be a bit like a no confidence vote but without the same automatic consequences. Again this could lead to a change in prime minister or even a change in government.
Whoever ended up in charge would still face the same basic range of Brexit options though.

in a normal honest democracy, Ref2 would have been the solution

but we are in England, where everyone double speak and stab each other in the back

Andrea Leadsom just said Government has no intention of revoking or extending A50 but guess she has to say that. Maybe they think if keep repeating this people will eventually vote for Doris deal.

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

in a normal honest democracy, Ref2 would have been the solution

but we are in England, where everyone double speak and stab each other in the back

How is it a solution, what is the question? No one wants Doris deal leaver or remoaner. No way they will have a ballot saying remain or clean Brexit as they are shit scared the plebs would vote for a clean Brexit.

you have to give it to the Brits for creating cahos and shit over very little for simple solutions

The trouble is politicians and the civil service don't want to implement want the people voted for if they did it would have been simple.

Originally Posted by buriramboy

How is it a solution, what is the question? No one wants Doris deal leaver or remoaner. No way they will have a ballot saying remain or clean Brexit as they are shit scared the plebs would vote for a clean Brexit.

the question will be simple:

1. YES - Maybot Exit Deal
2. NO - Hard Brexit

you will not get a better deal than Maybot regardless of the options, even if Hard Brexit, you will get the same deal at the end

so stop wasting your time and get on with the program

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

the question will be simple:

1. YES - Maybot Exit Deal
2. NO - Hard Brexit

you will not get a better deal than Maybot regardless of the options, even if Hard Brexit, you will get the same deal at the end

so stop wasting your time and get on with the program

In case you missed the News: The deal May had (as it was) has been rejected by the UK parliament. The deal has to be changed. How much change is required by the UK or how much change the EU side will allow is now what must be decided.

Originally Posted by Neverna

In case you missed the News: The deal May had (as it was) has been rejected by the UK parliament. The deal has to be changed. How much change is required by the UK or how much change the EU side will allow is now what must be decided.

in case you missed the News: there is no re-negotiation of the deal

UK Parliament is obviously not in line with reality and the British people, and final decisions should be left to the people in a REF2

what's so hard to get for you hard brexiter tyrants?

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

the question will be simple:

1. YES - Maybot Exit Deal
2. NO - Hard Brexit

you will not get a better deal than Maybot regardless of the options, even if Hard Brexit, you will get the same deal at the end

This is the reality that Brexiteers don't understand.

Brexiteers believe that after a hard brexit, the EU will fold and forget all about the unpaid £50bn divorce bill + the concessions in the Maybot deal ...the EU will instead welcome the UK with open arms and hand over an amazing trade deal which will be better than the Maybot deal and the current EU membership deal.

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

in case you missed the News: there is no re-negotiation of the deal

UK Parliament is obviously not in line with the British people, and decisions should be left to the people in a REF2

what's so hard to get for you hard brexiter tyrants?

If both sides want a deal (and I believe they do), further talks can begin, but obviously the EU can't call the talks negotiations cuz they'd look like they've gone back on their word.
The UK parliament rejected that specific deal as it stood. The deal needs to be changed - but not outright, just enough to make it acceptable to enough MPs to get it through parliament. The EU side can either be helpful towards an acceptable deal or stick their heads in the sand. Or they can Tweet suggesting the UK parliament should go against the UK referendum result. There is still time to agree an outcome acceptable to both sides.

Originally Posted by Neverna

If both sides want a deal (and I believe they do), further talks can begin, but obviously the EU can't call the talks negotiations cuz they'd look like they've gone back on their word.
The UK parliament rejected that specific deal as it stood. The deal needs to be changed. The EU side can either be helpful towards an acceptable deal or stick their heads in the sand. Or they can Tweet suggesting the UK parliament should go against the UK referendum result. There is still time to agree an outcome acceptable to both sides.

you are the typical delusional Brexiter,

the Maybot deal is at the very end of a very long negotiation, there is no coming back to it, all the essential matters have been discussed and approved by the EU parliament, there will not be another vote by the EU parliament, this is it

there might be minor things to clarify, but that's not questioning the fundamentals of the deal. The UK parliament rejected the fundamentals of the deal, what's left to discuss? nothing

if the UK parliament can't make the right decision, it's about time you go to REF2

the EU wants a reasonable deal for both parties, and Maybot deal is reasonable

but your politicians and your party leaders are not being reasonable, they are fooking loons

you can't negotiate any deal with loons, so take the deal to a popular vote and hope the Brits will have better sense than all the loons in the UK parliament

Originally Posted by Neverna

If both sides want a deal (and I believe they do), further talks can begin, but obviously the EU can't call the talks negotiations cuz they'd look like they've gone back on their word.
The UK parliament rejected that specific deal as it stood. The deal needs to be changed - but not outright, just enough to make it acceptable to enough MPs to get it through parliament. The EU side can either be helpful towards an acceptable deal or stick their heads in the sand. Or they can Tweet suggesting the UK parliament should go against the UK referendum result. There is still time to agree an outcome acceptable to both sides.

This. But first the No confidence hurdle. The problem is we've entered last minute brinkmanship and this will force further negotiation, we've moved to possible leave under WTO rules scenario which the EU won't want and its taken the UK two years of ineptitude to arrive at position they should have started negotiating from - if these muppets were my employees they'd have been sacked less than two months in.

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

you are the typical delusional Brexiter,

the Maybot deal is at the very end of a very long negotiation, there is no coming back to it, all the essential matters have been discussed and approved by the EU parliament, there will not be another vote by the EU parliament, this is it

there might be minor things to clarify, but that's not questioning the fundamentals of the deal. The UK parliament rejected the fundamentals of the deal, what's left to discuss? nothing

^ If what you say is true (and I don't believe it is) ...

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

if the UK parliament can't make the right decision,

The "right decision" is a hard Brexit.

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

it's about time you go to REF2

Dream on, sonny.

Originally Posted by foobar

This is the reality that Brexiteers don't understand.

Brexiteers believe that after a hard brexit, the EU will fold and forget all about the unpaid £50bn divorce bill + the concessions in the Maybot deal ...the EU will instead welcome the UK with open arms and hand over an amazing trade deal which will be better than the Maybot deal and the current EU membership deal.

the hard Brexiter tyrants, like all tyrants, live in a rigid and simplistic world that is so far removed from the fluid nuances of reality, they can't possibly understand or see that real world. Think of it as a mental capacity limitation, nothing else. Their brains do not have the necessary wires to see or understand such a reality.

Originally Posted by Neverna

^ If what you say is true (and I don't believe it is) ...



The "right decision" is a hard Brexit.



Dream on, sonny.

of course I am dreaming, because that would be the only reasonable solution and you guys are completely loons

Hard Brexit is no problem if you have a people mandate for it,