1. #28651
    Member TheMadBaron's Avatar
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    Ah.... all becomes clear....



    ^ Deep fake.

  2. #28652
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMadBaron View Post
    His reading skills just aren't that good.
    He does not follow so closely the teleprompter when "end of quote", as (please no names here...)

  3. #28653
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo View Post
    They just have to be sure not to give him any big words to read.
    They slow the prompter down for that bit.

    Have you seen a Karaoke machine?

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    I think now in the next days when searched for "teleprompter", "end of quote" and/or "gaffe" it will show "0 results" within a second.
    (That's right, the population should no longer be confused...)

  5. #28655
    Thailand Expat lom's Avatar
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    Trump lost the election because Hugo Chávez and the Venezuelans hacked his teleprompter

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    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    President Donald Trump-eqkdkwnwmaa_zfz-jpg

  7. #28657
    Thailand Expat raycarey's Avatar
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    now that manafort, flyinn and stone have been pardoned by trump, they can no longer hide behind the 5th amendment and can be compelled to give testimony....and if it is determined that they lied during that testimony, they would be guilty of perjury....and could be jailed.

    trump has to have known this before granting the pardons, right?

  8. #28658
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raycarey View Post
    now that manafort, flyinn and stone have been pardoned by trump, they can no longer hide behind the 5th amendment and can be compelled to give testimony....and if it is determined that they lied during that testimony, they would be guilty of perjury....and could be jailed.

    trump has to have known this before granting the pardons, right?
    Double jeopardy?

  9. #28659
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Double jeopardy?
    No double jeopardy, because they would not be tried for the same crime, Having been pardoned does not give anyone immunity from the law for the rest of their life, only immunity for the crime they were pardoned for.

  10. #28660
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai View Post
    No double jeopardy, because they would not be tried for the same crime, Having been pardoned does not give anyone immunity from the law for the rest of their life, only immunity for the crime they were pardoned for.
    As an example, if they were charged with or convicted of lying to the FBI, can they be charged with that again?

    Because it strikes me it would be the same crime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    I'm guessing he can be charged for other lies? Whatever the case, I do hope they go after the slimeballs again
    Yeah, but only when Biden is president. Or Trump would pardon them again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    As an example, if they were charged with or convicted of lying to the FBI, can they be charged with that again?

    Because it strikes me it would be the same crime.
    They were pardoned for the one time they lied to the FBI, it does mot mean that it gives them card blanch to lie to the FBI for the rest of their lives.
    The same that if you got pardoned for killing someone it does not mean that you can go on killing people for the rest of your life with impunity.
    The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up.

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    Thailand Expat raycarey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    Or - if you were pardoned for killing someone . . . but had not yet stood trial for killing someone else.
    and if i understand the law correctly....if called to testify about the murder you were pardoned for....you can't plead the 5th...and any lie about the murder will subject you to a perjury charge.

    this where i see trump in jeopardy....if congress or NY opens investigations, and the subpoena manafort or stone....they could go to jail if they lie under oath.

    so why would they lie?

    they're certainly not going to get a pardon from biden.


    IMO, jared is the one trump has to be very worried about....i definitely think he'd flip if it meant avoiding serious jail time.

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    Thailand Expat David48atTD's Avatar
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    ^ Following from Ray's comment above.

    Trump can't pardon a State offense (only a Federal one)? and ...

    Trump can't pardon for an Federal offense, already (allegedly) committed, but not yet charged for?

    If convicted of an offense (of magnitude) he can't run for President for his next potential term?
    Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago ...


  15. #28665
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai View Post
    They were pardoned for the one time they lied to the FBI, it does mot mean that it gives them card blanch to lie to the FBI for the rest of their lives.
    The same that if you got pardoned for killing someone it does not mean that you can go on killing people for the rest of your life with impunity.
    But unless they have committed a new crime, they can't be charged again for the cases that were concluded?

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    Quote Originally Posted by raycarey View Post
    if called to testify about the murder you were pardoned for....you can't plead the 5th...
    Is there a legal precedent for this? One might argue that the 5th amendment protects a person from being compelled to be a witness against himself, regardless of whether any actual legal punishment might result from this.

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    Thailand Expat helge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David48atTD View Post
    Trump can't pardon for an Federal offense, already (allegedly) committed, but not yet charged for?
    Ford granted to Richard Nixon, his predecessor, a full and unconditional pardon for any crimes that he might have committed against the United States as president

  18. #28668
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMadBaron View Post
    Is there a legal precedent for this? One might argue that the 5th amendment protects a person from being compelled to be a witness against himself, regardless of whether any actual legal punishment might result from this.
    i'm venturing out of my depth, but as i understand it....

    they're not witnesses against themselves...in the scenario referenced above, they would be witnesses for the prosecution in cases against trump and all his dodgy dealings/organizations.

    as far as legal precedent, i'm pretty sure this happens regularly with immunity in trials of organized crime figures and white collar criminals.

  19. #28669
    Thailand Expat raycarey's Avatar
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    with regard to manafort's fraud charges in NY and double jeopardy

    In October of last year, New York state Democrats passed a law to close the “double jeopardy loophole,” to allow the state to prosecute people for state crimes after they have received presidential pardons, but it’s not clear how that will affect Manafort now.

    Dmitriy Shakhnevich, a constitutional law professor at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, said that if prosecutors move forward with a case against Manafort, it’s likely the state’s new law will be called into question.


    “It will be challenged for sure if there’s any state prosecution under this law,” he said.
    DA Cy Vance Moving Forward With Paul Manafort Case

  20. #28670
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    Quote Originally Posted by raycarey View Post
    they're not witnesses against themselves...in the scenario referenced above, they would be witnesses for the prosecution in cases against trump and all his dodgy dealings/organizations.
    However, in admitting their role in dodgy dealings, they would also be damning themselves. There might not be any legal ramifications, but they'd still have to explain it to the missus....

    Quote Originally Posted by raycarey View Post
    i'm pretty sure this happens regularly with immunity in trials of organized crime figures and white collar criminals.
    It does, but it's not the same thing. Immunity is the key factor here - those people have something to gain from their cooperation, or everything to lose from their refusal to cooperate. No-one needs immunity from prosecution for a crime they've already been pardoned for, so where's the incentive to cooperate?

  21. #28671
    Thailand Expat raycarey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMadBaron View Post
    There might not be any legal ramifications, but they'd still have to explain it to the missus
    i don't think the law gives a good god damn about that.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheMadBaron View Post
    It does, but it's not the same thing. Immunity is the key factor here - those people have something to gain from their cooperation, or everything to lose from their refusal to cooperate.
    good point.
    deeply flawed comparison on my part.

  22. #28672
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    Quote Originally Posted by raycarey View Post
    i don't think the law gives a good god damn about that.
    I'm sure it doesn't. A lot, however, hangs on the "correct" interpretation of a document ratified in 1791, and the law does give a good god damn about that:

    Amendment V

    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
    Pendant that I am, I would argue that while the amendment offers a person a safeguard against having to be a witness against himself, in the absence of a definition of "against," it would be for the person himself to decide whether his testimony might damage him. However, pedant that I am, I would argue that the amendment offers a person no safeguard against having to be a witness against himself where due process of law is otherwise established. Of course, it's never interpreted like that....

    The matter of perjury is troublesome in and of itself. Any person who pleads not guilty to any crime, but is then found guilty, could, in theory, be tried again for perjury. This doesn't happen. If anyone tried to bring such a prosecution, the lawyers would have a field day.

  23. #28673
    Thailand Expat raycarey's Avatar
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    ^
    interesting.

    you clearly know more about this than i do.

    we'll see how it plays out.

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    Thailand Expat raycarey's Avatar
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    i listened to a podcast with weissman about ten days ago, and that's likely what influenced my line of thinking which i posted above.

    here's an article in which he lays out his perspective....

    Manafort and Stone may be hauled back to court despite Trump pardon, says top Mueller prosecutor
    ‘You cannot be pardoned for future crimes,’ says Andrew Weissman


    Paul Manafort and Roger Stone could still find themselves in legal trouble despite being pardoned by Donald Trump, a top lawyer has said.


    Andrew Weissman, who served as a prosecutor on special counsel Robert Mueller's Russia probe, believes both men – convicted in that investigation – may be brought before a grand jury again and asked to testify.


    Mr Manafort, the president's former campaign manager, was jailed in 2019 for financial crimes.


    Meanwhile, Mr Stone, a former adviser to the president, was convicted of multiple offences, including obstructing the House investigation into whether the Trump campaign colluded with Russia during the 2016 election campaign.


    He was sentenced to 40 months in jail but had his sentence commuted in July, a day before he was due to be locked up.

    Both have now had their convictions struck out by Mr Trump, who is issuing a slew of pardons to ex-aides caught up in the scandal, as he prepares to leave the White House in January.


    Speaking to MSNBC on Thursday, Mr Weissman said that neither man is fully out of the woods yet, and will have no protection against future charges.

    "You cannot be pardoned for future crimes and each of those people, Roger Stone, Paul Manafort, Michael Flynn, has evidence in their head," he said.


    "They have information that a grand jury could seek, they can all be given grand jury subpoenas, required to testify in the grand jury."


    Michael Flynn, the president's first national security adviser, was pardoned in November having been convicted for twice lying to prosecutors about his contacts with Russia.

    Mr Weissman added: "If they then lie before the grand jury, which is a new crime, and that happens after 20 January, there is no president Trump at that point to give them a get out of jail free card.


    "And so all of this effort by the president to shield his friends and allies and potential conspirators will be for nought.

    "Because all of these people can be in that trick box of being put before the grand jury where they either have to tell the truth or they risk being prosecuted for a new crime of perjury and obstruction of justice".



    Manafort and Stone may be hauled back to court despite Trump pardon, says top Mueller prosecutor | The Independent

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    Quote Originally Posted by raycarey View Post
    you clearly know more about this than i do.
    Just to be clear about this, I know nuffink.

    I think Weissman has it about right.... The 5th amendment cannot be invoked before a Grand Jury.

    unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury
    That then leaves the problems of proving that they've lied, if they lie, and of watching them walk away without punishment for crimes already committed (and pardoned) even if they don't.

    There is a chance that some will end up incriminating themselves on matters yet undisclosed, of course. I really have no idea.
    Last edited by TheMadBaron; 27-12-2020 at 07:04 PM.

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