Thread: The U.K and the E.U - In or out?

Your first point about age group voting will apply to recent elections. A referendum is a different animal and young educated voters are more invested in a once in a lifetime opportunity.
The later graph actually demonstrates how volatile inclinations are rather than supporting your point.
Just saying.

Originally Posted by CaptainNemo

It's not really relevant what the policy actually is, it's what the perception is amongst the voters

A very valid point and why I have said that the UK are in danger of voting themselves out of the EU for all the wrong reasons.

Successive governments have blamed the EU for their actions despite them having less to do with the EU than the average Joe realises. This includes allowing EU nationals into the Country when they were not required to (Blair Govt) and blaming EU immigration policies, which they had not even signed up to.

The UK has had plenty of time to move closer towards Europe rather than stay semi-isolated from it. If they end up deciding to distance themselves more then it will depend on who is at the helm and how they will change policies to suit their new freedom. I can't see any leader that is capable of doing this so they will end up like a disabled ship at sea facing a force 10 storm.

Originally Posted by Seekingasylum

may be resistance to a deal between Cameron and Tusk.

Its hard enough to save for a rainy day in UK. The average Joe would struggle if the company closed or a job lost inside that 4 yrs.
Folk would be vulnerable surely, especially if they have kids.
Bills would keep rolling in that need to be paid.
In this crazy world a cushion would create just a lil security for emergencies.
Without it a guy could easily end up with a lot of debt.

Debt being slavery seems to be accepted now instead of shame.

^
Cameron is a sellout, so whoever's the highest bidder.

Originally Posted by lom

Relieve us from the fekking whining Englishmen, the Scots and the Irish can stay as members.

That's about right. The UK has so many opt-out clauses and still moans at every turn, the main gripe seems to be the curvature of sausages and complaining about sausages needing to be filled with meat rather than offal, gristle and sinew like in the good old days

Originally Posted by Seekingasylum

The day the UK votes to quit the EU in toto would see the £ fall by at least 30%.

Not a bad estimate - seeing as it dropped 9% based upon the possibility of Scottish independence.

Originally Posted by Seekingasylum

Scotland would demand, and get, an immediate referendum to quit

And so they should - Britain will crumble

Originally Posted by Seekingasylum

Britain by itself in the world would be utter shite not least because the country is host to a significant minority of welfare trash and the work ethic is pitiful.

. . . who are all busy complaining about foreigners who work and pay taxes for these scum to receive their government handouts

Originally Posted by CaptainNemo

It's not really relevant what the policy actually is, it's what the perception is amongst the voters.

The EU should just give the whiners the boot . . . and let them reminisce about the glory days while these glory days are coming home to roost in the form of millions upon millions of Commonwealth and ex-colonies best and brightest going to the US and the mainland while the less than wonderful 'flooding' the the smelly isles . . .

Yup. Poles or Pakistanis . . .

Originally Posted by alwarner

The savings that the vote will be sold on will not end up in the tax payers pocket.

Vote out of the EU and watch the minimum wage and other tertiary human rights that go along with membership will go down the toilet.

As Nigel Farage wishes...................

Vote out of the EU and watch the minimum wage and other tertiary human rights that go along with membership will go down the toilet.

Scare mongering.

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Vote out of the EU and watch the minimum wage and other tertiary human rights that go along with membership will go down the toilet.

Scare mongering.

Not true: The EU introduced a number of changes to protect workers rights.

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Vote out of the EU and watch the minimum wage and other tertiary human rights that go along with membership will go down the toilet.

Scare mongering.

min wage ? a quick look

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ges_by_country



Italy None; instead set through collective bargaining agreements on a sector-by-sector basis.

Sweden None; in Sweden the law provides for the right of workers to form and join independent unions to bargain wages collectively, and it prohibits antiunion discrimination

Denmark None; instead, negotiated between unions and employer associations

Yeah Sweden - wouldn't wanna be like Sweden, would we.

Originally Posted by Ronin

Not true: The EU introduced a number of changes to protect workers rights.

And who says the law won't remain in the event of a UK pullout? Have you got a link saying it will be scrapped?

^This a big part of the problem. A lack of independent accurate information. All the public has to go on is what politicians and vested interest groups tell them, plus carefully selected drip feed from the media.

No one really knows or understands the implications of staying in or leaving, because no one can predict the future with any kind of accuracy.

You can spout all you like about social and economic implications, but it is all an opinion and nothing more.

No doubt major multinationals and the finance industry will have done their homework and come up with a plan A and B to suit both possible outcomes.

Here's and interesting view;

Originally Posted by chassamui

You can spout all you like about social and economic implications, but it is all an opinion and nothing more.

Not really, the implications of renewed bordercontrol and processing of im/exports can easily be predicted.

Originally Posted by stroller

Not really, the implications of renewed bordercontrol and processing of im/exports can easily be predicted.

It's really not that simple. First of all you now have to get the agreement of all 28 sovereign states on who can do what and how. The views will be polarised by the different implications for each country and based on individual state needs, so it is far from easy to predict.
While the most powerful states insist on greater political union, the UK case will have alerted other members to the consequences of integration at the expense of lost sovereignty.
If each member state decided to cherry pick the best bits of EU membership, we would see a return to the original common market. Greater political union means more unelected and unaccountable bureaucracy.

Originally Posted by chassamui

Originally Posted by stroller

Not really, the implications of renewed bordercontrol and processing of im/exports can easily be predicted.

It's really not that simple. First of all you now have to get the agreement of all 28 sovereign states on who can do what and how. The views will be polarised by the different implications for each country and based on individual state needs, so it is far from easy to predict.
While the most powerful states insist on greater political union, the UK case will have alerted other members to the consequences of integration at the expense of lost sovereignty.
If each member state decided to cherry pick the best bits of EU membership, we would see a return to the original common market. Greater political union means more unelected and unaccountable bureaucracy.

Cherrypicking isn't done by most and how the UK got away with it for so long while still blaming everything o the EU is a mystery. I do believe they should just fuck off out of the EU

Originally Posted by panama hat

Cherrypicking isn't done by most and how the UK got away with it for so long while still blaming everything o the EU is a mystery

Originally Posted by panama hat

If each member state decided to cherry pick

How did the UK get away with cherry picking anything? The aim of the UK government has been to reform elements of EU policy, especially those giving the EU greater political control over UK matters. That is reform and not cherry picking. It will only happen if all EU member states agree to it.

Originally Posted by panama hat

I do believe they should just fuck off out of the EU

That would indeed be the most sensible solution. The UK however has a democratic responsibility to protect its own citizens and in the modern world, preserve those mutually beneficial areas of union membership for all states.
The alternative is to lie down while Germany and France seek ever greater political control over all member states. They want concensus without the burden of democracy and accountability.

Originally Posted by chassamui

How did the UK get away with cherry picking anything?

You can start withn the Euro and keep going ad infinitum

Originally Posted by chassamui

The alternative is to lie down while Germany and France seek ever greater political control over all member states.

Ah, at least you aren't just opening the cavernous 'BAD GERMANY' but add France to that equation.
So now it's two countries that would lay siege to all things British, condemning the UK to groveling at their feet.
Drama much, Chas?

The best way to combat an issue is from the inside, but if running away from issues like a frightened cur - barking loudly but doing nothing?

It's the tired and old 'Europe wants British Banger Banned' crap

Originally Posted by chassamui

They want concensus without the burden of democracy and accountability.

So, you're saying there are no elections? No elected officials? No accountability for their actions?
Wow . . .

Originally Posted by panama hat

You can start withn the Euro and keep going ad infinitum

The UK never met the criteria to join. Hardly cherry picking is it?

Originally Posted by panama hat

So now it's two countries that would lay siege to all things British, condemning the UK to groveling at their feet. Drama much, Chas?

Your words not mine. The UK chooses not to support further political integration within the EU. That's not drama, it's common sense. It was, and should remain, a free trade association with common standards, not a political behemoth.

Originally Posted by panama hat

The best way to combat an issue is from the inside,

Agreed 100%.

Originally Posted by panama hat

So, you're saying there are no elections? No elected officials? No accountability for their actions? Wow . . .

Only MEPs are elected. All the commission and institution heads are unelected. They are the decision makers who decide budgets and legal positions within the EU. See if you can google when the last EU accounts were audited it begins with 19

Originally Posted by chassamui

See if you can google when the last EU accounts were audited it begins with 19

No, thanks . . . I'll take your word for it

Originally Posted by chassamui

It was, and should remain, a free trade association with common standards, not a political behemoth.

You and I totally agree there - it was a massive mistake to extend the economic baseline into a political baseline, even the Euro caused many problems in the beginning, in terms of conversion, weighting etc . . . and then there are the Greeks, may their armpits be infested with fleas and may their arms grow too short to scratch them.
As far as I am concerned, NATO as a symbol of European unity was sufficient.

Originally Posted by panama hat

As far as I am concerned, NATO as a symbol of European unity was sufficient.

NATO has many benefits to the EU but the political integrity of sovereign states is not one of them.
In fact, the Alliance’s creation was part of a broader effort to serve three purposes: deterring Soviet expansionism, forbidding the revival of nationalist militarism in Europe through a strong North American presence on the continent, and encouraging European political integration.

Originally Posted by chassamui

Only MEPs are elected. All the commission and institution heads are unelected. They are the decision makers who decide budgets and legal positions within the EU.

Sigh..
The decision makers are the MEPs. The commission suggest to the parliament and implements after parliament has decided.
I don't think France elected the British commissionaire.

Originally Posted by lom

Sigh.. The decision makers are the MEPs. The commission suggest to the parliament and implements after parliament has decided. I don't think France elected the British commissionaire.

The commissioners decide policy. They are all unelected and unaccountable. The MEPs are directed by the commissioners, who decide what policy needs voting through. It's a corrupt unmitigated farce.

The European Commission is the only institution empowered to initiate legislation. The head of the commission is appointed not elected.