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  1. #1
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    do we have free will...really

    i've been interested in this for a while and not in the same sort of free will as means we decide which type of beer to order

    but with regards to some of the nasties that are ongoing....

    does anybody really have actual real free will when it comes to sexual predeliction?
    or religion?


    i have never really believed people chose to be straight...or gay ...and that most of our choices are either a product of nature or nurture...either way..we are not really our own masters

    i think that if we understood that the bloke that just got convicted for his unfortunate habits was not really any different from us other than a few bits that we were not subjected to ....it might at least help us to gauge reaction or focus on some more appropriate forms of punishment rather than the usual 'chop his balls off and burn his brains' sort of thing

  2. #2
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    Species-centric.

    Might one expect anything less?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by thaimeme
    Species-centric. Might one expect anything less?
    i'm not really sure what you mean jeff..but it's a case in point..but for a few neurological differences..i would be you

  4. #4
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    sam harris does an interesting experiment where he asks you to think of a country

    you do that





    and you come up with a country,,,,say portugal

    but portugal just popped up right?

    you can't actually make yourself think of the country you were trying to think of

    try it...it's impossible

    we don't really have free will

  5. #5
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    We are part genetic by inclination for mozt behavioural traits. If thesr traits are not part of accepted socital norms, there will likely be several different outcomes.
    These will depend on how strong the genetic link is and how society interprets such behaviours. The effect may also be magnified or subverted by other inherent traits.
    For example, someone with strong inclination to homosexuality will develop differently depending on his or her societal expectations, the strength of genetic markers and other related traits.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by chassamui
    For example, someone with strong inclination to homosexuality
    what does that mean though chas

    how do people have a strong inclination towards homosexuality?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon View Post

    i think that if we understood that the bloke that just got convicted for his unfortunate habits was not really any different from us other than a few bits that we were not subjected to ....it might at least help us to gauge reaction or focus on some more appropriate forms of punishment rather than the usual 'chop his balls off and burn his brains' sort of thing
    I was with you up to this part... so if we say, that he didn't choose to blow someones head off, and that the voices in his head told him too.. we may let him off for his behavior?

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    Simple genetic predisposition. Species develop in an intelligent manner.
    Perhaps humanity is producing more gay genes in response to overpopulation. Lack of resources often prompt certain mammals to curtail breeding. It's a simple survival technique.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by phukitbound
    so if we say, that he didn't choose to blow someones head off, and that the voices in his head told him too.. we may let him off for his behavior
    i don't think so, i'm not sure..that's why i'm asking

    i think i'm trying to say that we would approach the problem from a better angle

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by phukitbound View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon View Post

    i think that if we understood that the bloke that just got convicted for his unfortunate habits was not really any different from us other than a few bits that we were not subjected to ....it might at least help us to gauge reaction or focus on some more appropriate forms of punishment rather than the usual 'chop his balls off and burn his brains' sort of thing
    I was with you up to this part... so if we say, that he didn't choose to blow someones head off, and that the voices in his head told him too.. we may let him off for his behavior?
    Yet, murdering soldiers receive a pass, don't they?


    Moral contradictions abound.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon View Post
    sam harris does an interesting experiment where he asks you to think of a country

    you do that





    and you come up with a country,,,,say portugal

    but portugal just popped up right?

    you can't actually make yourself think of the country you were trying to think of

    try it...it's impossible

    we don't really have free will
    I think this is coming from our unconscious. I don't think this has anything to do with free will. Perhaps you were thinking of moving there a long time ago, or you just saw a show about Portugal. Just sayin' ..

    Free will is bound to our morals to an extent.

  12. #12
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    there's far too little empathy about
    plenty of feigned sympathy and lots of fury but not much actual empathy

  13. #13
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    Given the way that homosexuality has been treated historically, it would be a reasonable assumption that tbe inclination is not primarily environmental, but more likely genetic. Sufficient numbers were prepared to submit to those inclinations even though it was not only unacceptable to society, but also for the most part, illegal.

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    The trouble is that in any society there will be guidelines as to what is expected of the members. Whether these guidelines be in the form of written laws or are simply implicit, people choose to be be a part of that society or not.

    There's a guy who lives a few doors down the road from me who has Jaguar F type, it's a beautiful car and given 'free will' I'd nick it in a heartbeat, stick the roof down and head off to hoon about on the highway doing donuts and the like. Unfortunately the society I live in, and whose benefits I enjoy by being a part of, would rather frown on that sort of thing. One way or another I would expect to find myself excluded from it if I crossed that line.

    There are probably parts of the world where such antics would be considered borderline OK, but at the same time if I were to join that society then I would have to accept that I might find my car missing one morning.

    A better example of this is probably the twenty-somethings who 'escape' their society in Western Europe to travel to the Middle East and join IS. They recognise that they will be prevented from exercising their free will where they live as doing so will be at odds with the rules of western European society. Instead they vent their frustrations by travelling to Syria to pursue their ideals in a society that allows and welcomes such behaviour.

    There are of course many people who do not have the freedom of choice that we have. People who are prevented from exercising their free will (kids who have joined IS and then change their mind and want to go home to mummy could be an example if the press is to be believed). Perhaps a better example might be citizens of North Korea, although whether they have a 'will' for something different is debatable.

    The point is this: you, me, probably most of the few people who will read this do have free will in that we can by and large choose the society that we become a part of. Some live in the west, others enjoy the relatively lax enforcement of the rules afforded by life in Thailand. If any one of us dearly wanted then we could probably find a way to move to Somalia, Syria or the like and live in the freedom from laws that those failed states afford, but in doing so we would become a part of those societies and would have to accept that in an absence of the rules of a state we would also be unable to avail ourselves of the protection that they afford.

    I'm assuming that the guy you refer to who just got convicted for his unfortunate habits is the bloke arrested for paedophilia in Chiang Mai. He's clearly wired a little differently in that he's (allegedly) motivated by this sort of thing. What drives the motivation could be determined either before or after birth, but the fact is that he's chosen to live as a part of a society that doesn't allow this sort of behaviour.

    Arguably his move from the UK to Chiang Mai shows that, much like European kids heading off to join IS, he has exercised his free will by moving to a society where the rules, or more accurately the poor enforcement of them, give him the freedom to pursue the lifestyle he's chosen.

    The fact is though, irrespective of how he was wired, what he was doing was wrong by the standards of Thai society as well as those of his home country. He had the choice of living within the rules of those communities he was a part of or not, and he chose not to.

    My neighbour's Jaguar remains parked safely outside his house.


    Quote Originally Posted by thaimeme View Post
    Species-centric.

    Might one expect anything less?
    Is this more proof that you are in fact a tree Jeff...?

  15. #15
    punk douche bag
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    ^
    that's a really well thought out response but i'm too tired to properly critique it

    thanks and i'll get back to it tomorrow

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon View Post
    there's far too little empathy about
    plenty of feigned sympathy and lots of fury but not much actual empathy
    I agree... I think it is because some people still view homosexuality as something that people choose to be. It's not natural and goes against the bible for those bible bashers in the US.

    Also agree with Chas about it being mostly genetic.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by phukitbound
    Free will is bound to our morals to an extent.
    but where do your morals come from...mine came from my parents to a large extent but i certainly didn't choose them

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon View Post
    sam harris does an interesting experiment where he asks you to think of a country

    you do that





    and you come up with a country,,,,say portugal

    but portugal just popped up right?

    you can't actually make yourself think of the country you were trying to think of

    try it...it's impossible

    we don't really have free will
    Isn't the idea that you weren't TRYING to think of a country in the first place.
    Anyway, it seems you are in fact gay afterall.
    Not that there's anything wrong with that. (faggot)

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon
    mine came from my parents to a large extent but i certainly didn't choose them
    And you made a conscious choice to accept them...

  20. #20
    punk douche bag
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo
    Isn't the idea that you weren't TRYING to think of a country in the first place.
    no

    you are missing the point

    i know it's hard for you to understand but you are basically fukked

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by phukitbound
    Free will is bound to our morals to an extent.
    but where do your morals come from...mine came from my parents to a large extent but i certainly didn't choose them
    Yeah parents and religion. .. so they do inhibit free will. Not that there is anything wrong with that in some respects.

  22. #22
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    we are almost definitely not in charge of our subconscious..i do my best to think of stuff that i want to think about at night when i have trouble trying to get to sleep and i often try thinking of some heroic stuff like rugby but my conscious thoughts have an awful lot of subconscious competition

    there's a lot going on inside there

  23. #23
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    No such beast as an absolute....yet, you'll all justify.

    Survival mode. Real or not.

  24. #24
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    I find it interesting that societal or environmental pressures can vary dpending on extreme circumstances.
    The example of N Korea is an excellent one. Do the people stay because they are happy, or conditioned to accept their circumstances? Or do they dream of escape to the west? Will they eventually driven by free will to reject their environment like the East Germans did in risking death just to see if the grass was greener on the other side of the Berlin wall.
    Is our free will only exercised when we find ourselves in such desperate circumstances?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by chassamui View Post
    I find it interesting that societal or environmental pressures can vary dpending on extreme circumstances.
    The example of N Korea is an excellent one. Do the people stay because they are happy, or conditioned to accept their circumstances? Or do they dream of escape to the west? Will they eventually driven by free will to reject their environment like the East Germans did in risking death just to see if the grass was greener on the other side of the Berlin wall.
    Is our free will only exercised when we find ourselves in such desperate circumstances?
    The people in NK are brainwashed and don't have the resources or means to get out.
    Trust me, they are pawns and sheep at the same time.

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