Thread: do we have free will...really

Originally Posted by phukitbound

Originally Posted by chassamui

I find it interesting that societal or environmental pressures can vary dpending on extreme circumstances.
The example of N Korea is an excellent one. Do the people stay because they are happy, or conditioned to accept their circumstances? Or do they dream of escape to the west? Will they eventually driven by free will to reject their environment like the East Germans did in risking death just to see if the grass was greener on the other side of the Berlin wall.
Is our free will only exercised when we find ourselves in such desperate circumstances?

The people in NK are brainwashed and don't have the resources or means to get out.
Trust me, they are pawns and sheep at the same time.

Extended in all of us..

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

we are almost definitely not in charge of our subconscious..i do my best to think of stuff that i want to think about at night when i have trouble trying to get to sleep and i often try thinking of some heroic stuff like rugby but my conscious thoughts have an awful lot of subconscious competition

there's a lot going on inside there

Take melatonin..it helps.

You tink too much. I don't think about things I can't control much anymore. It has made my life so much easier. I worry so much less about things and in the world around me. Try just living day to day and appreciating every moment in the here and now.

Originally Posted by phukitbound

Originally Posted by chassamui

I find it interesting that societal or environmental pressures can vary dpending on extreme circumstances.
The example of N Korea is an excellent one. Do the people stay because they are happy, or conditioned to accept their circumstances? Or do they dream of escape to the west? Will they eventually driven by free will to reject their environment like the East Germans did in risking death just to see if the grass was greener on the other side of the Berlin wall.
Is our free will only exercised when we find ourselves in such desperate circumstances?

The people in NK are brainwashed and don't have the resources or means to get out.
Trust me, they are pawns and sheep at the same time.

I do understand the situation in NK. My questions were rhetorical and a comparison to the situation in the former East Germany.
The situations are historically similar, but the geography and politics a little different. Eventually the N K situation will become untenable. That is inevitable.

Originally Posted by thaimeme

Extended in all of us..

Actually I agree with that.

It's interesting how much we are conditioned by the messaging we receive. Since the 'War on Terror' began, much has changed in terms of perception.

I watched the new Star Wars movie last weekend and found myself being troubled by the thought that Luke Skywalker, Han Solo and the rest of the courageous Rebel Alliance that I had so looked up to in my youth were nothing but a band of terrorists intent on destroying the ordered society that had been built up by the Empire.

The new Death Star they blew up this time even had trees on it...!

The World would be a better place if it was globally illegal to teach religious studies to children aged 8 and under.

Originally Posted by Luigi

The World would be a better place if it was globally illegal to teach religious studies to children aged 8 and under.

...or a much better place with the extermination of 98% of Western/Euro populations.

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

do we have free will...really

If you think you may not have free will then can imagine what it would feel like if you did have free will?

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

we are almost definitely not in charge of our subconscious

Can you imagine what it would feel like if you did have control of your subconscious?

The answer is no because the concept is meaningless.

There is no way to reduce thought processes back to some pure source which could be defined as free will since your conciousness is just an illusion produced by the parallel processing algorithm of your brain.

Your choice to act in certain ways in the world is because you are a goal-seeking agent.

If you try to look at free will as some property or essence of your brain then free will ceases to have a meaningful definition.

The only meaningful definition of free will is in terms of constraints on your ability to choose courses of action.

If psychological stimuli were to act on you in a way that would cause the average human to act in a certain way then is their anything peculiar to your individual situation which prevents you from acting in that way?

If the answer is no then you have free will w.r.t. that course of action.

Absolute free will is meaningless since it can only be defined w.r.t. particular courses of action.

If there is nothing to prevent you from a course of action then you have free will w.r.t that course of action. The barrier to action may be external such as hand cuffs or a ball and chain or a legal constraint or social censure or the barrier to action could be internal such as a psychologically irrational fear but either way it is something that prevents you from acting and you therefore do not have free will with respect to that action.

Determinism is often set up as an alternative philosophical position to free will but it is a trivial and academic discussion. Yes your choices of actions can be traced to causal drivers but if your stimuli were changed only slightly you might choose a different course of action and nothing could stop you so you do have free will even if actions can be traced to causes because free will is the absence of constraints on your ability to act, not the presence of a magical essence of freeness within your consciousness.

Originally Posted by thaimeme

Originally Posted by Luigi

The World would be a better place if it was globally illegal to teach religious studies to children aged 8 and under.

...or a much better place with the extermination of 98% of Western/Euro populations.

Come Jeff, join me on the Dark Side.

I'll lend you my Death Star...

No. Simple really.

Originally Posted by chassamui

Originally Posted by phukitbound

Originally Posted by chassamui

I find it interesting that societal or environmental pressures can vary dpending on extreme circumstances.
The example of N Korea is an excellent one. Do the people stay because they are happy, or conditioned to accept their circumstances? Or do they dream of escape to the west? Will they eventually driven by free will to reject their environment like the East Germans did in risking death just to see if the grass was greener on the other side of the Berlin wall.
Is our free will only exercised when we find ourselves in such desperate circumstances?

The people in NK are brainwashed and don't have the resources or means to get out.
Trust me, they are pawns and sheep at the same time.

I do understand the situation in NK. My questions were rhetorical and a comparison to the situation in the former East Germany.
The situations are historically similar, but the geography and politics a little different. Eventually the N K situation will become untenable. That is inevitable.

I know you do, sweety, I just don't think that the NK's will be able to escape their environment because they are brainwashed and also given certain rations of food just to survive. It is an interesting thought though. I'm sure they must dream about it.. unless they don't even know that life is better on the other side. I read that they aren't allowed to watch TV outside of the area and live an isolating life.

Originally Posted by Roobarb

Originally Posted by thaimeme

Extended in all of us..

Actually I agree with that.

It's interesting how much we are conditioned by the messaging we receive. Since the 'War on Terror' began, much has changed in terms of perception.

I watched the new Star Wars movie last weekend and found myself being troubled by the thought that Luke Skywalker, Han Solo and the rest of the courageous Rebel Alliance that I had so looked up to in my youth were nothing but a band of terrorists intent on destroying the ordered society that had been built up by the Empire.

The new Death Star they blew up this time even had trees on it...!

Oooh, that's awful. Children especially are open to messages like this especially from the media (TV and Magazines).

Originally Posted by Luigi

The World would be a better place if it was globally illegal to teach religious studies to children aged 8 and under.

Hmmm. well although I don't follow any religion.. I think that I learned some good values from my Christian upbringing. Values like honesty, caring for your neighbor and others, etc... I can't 100% agree with this.

^
i'm teaching my kids to have the same values without the need for the lord's involvement PB.......let's call them human decency values rather than linking them to a religion
there are good evolutionary reasons to be pleasant to your fellow man

^And that's great CMN. Not all kids grow up in a positive environment and are taught these things that's for sure.

Free will eh.... anymore thoughts on free will?

I like Looper's blurb on the unconscious mind. It's true that we can't control what filters into our conscious from the unconscious. We can't control our dreams either.

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

^
i'm teaching my kids to have the same values without the need for the lord's involvement PB.......let's call them human decency values rather than linking them to a religion
there are good evolutionary reasons to be pleasant to your fellow man

Agreed. The word of the lord should be replaced by logic and a common empathetic purpose of mutually beneficial conduct. Where do we draw those values from, and should they be mandatory, further undermining free will.

Originally Posted by chassamui

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

^
i'm teaching my kids to have the same values without the need for the lord's involvement PB.......let's call them human decency values rather than linking them to a religion
there are good evolutionary reasons to be pleasant to your fellow man

Agreed. The word of the lord should be replaced by logic and a common empathetic purpose of mutually beneficial conduct. Where do we draw those values from, and should they be mandatory, further undermining free will.

And I agree with you looking back. Kids should have a choice as to what if any religion they want to follow. I just know from my experience that I lucked out in that I learned some good things (values), and also learned more about religion and the world by travel in where I could make my own choices.

Originally Posted by Looper

If psychological stimuli were to act on you in a way that would cause the average human to act in a certain way then is their anything peculiar to your individual situation which prevents you from acting in that way?

If the answer is no then you have free will w.r.t. that course of action.

Absolute free will is meaningless since it can only be defined w.r.t. particular courses of action.

As far as I know, Zen Buddhist masters and other enlightened beings have free will in that they are free to react to situations in whatever way they wish, without their prior conditioning determining their response.

Originally Posted by Looper

There is no way to reduce thought processes back to some pure source

Meditation does this, but actually the converse happens : the thoughts remain (in a quieter form) but the sense of self disappears. In the end, there is just consciousness itself, without a thinker. Hence the phrase "thoughts without a thinker". Everyday life and thought go on, though. Just not as frenetically as before.

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

^
i'm teaching my kids to have the same values without the need for the lord's involvement PB.......let's call them human decency values rather than linking them to a religion
there are good evolutionary reasons to be pleasant to your fellow man

Looper went to a lot of effort to school you and you just ignored him ...

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

Looper went to a lot of effort to school you and you just ignored him

i read it all and sent him a green

i'm also at work and don't have time to properly respond

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

Looper went to a lot of effort to school you and you just ignored him

i read it all and sent him a green

i'm also at work and don't have time to properly respond

Really glad your back man.

Carry on ...

I've been doing a lot of reading and watching about the Khmer Rouge this week, and there are some shocking documentaries out there where survivors face some of the killers and captors.

What they did to the Cambodian people beggars belief yet some of them still seem to show no remorse whatsoever.

They were essentially turned into sociopaths and psychopaths.

They didn't even describe what they did as murder or killing, they just referred to the "enemy being taken to be destroyed".

It's frightening how young humans can be conditioned to have no empathy or humanity whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

^
i'm teaching my kids to have the same values without the need for the lord's involvement PB.......let's call them human decency values rather than linking them to a religion
there are good evolutionary reasons to be pleasant to your fellow man

Looper went to a lot of effort to school you and you just ignored him ...

He is well known as a rude fucker that noony!

Originally Posted by thaimeme

Originally Posted by Luigi

The World would be a better place if it was globally illegal to teach religious studies to children aged 8 and under.

...or a much better place with the extermination of 98% of Western/Euro populations.

Or even better with the extermination of 98% of the asian, mideastern, African populations.
Don't you think?

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

we are almost definitely not in charge of our subconscious..i do my best to think of stuff that i want to think about at night when i have trouble trying to get to sleep and i often try thinking of some heroic stuff like rugby but my conscious thoughts have an awful lot of subconscious competition

there's a lot going on inside there

just because your subconscious mind keeps sending up images of cocks when you're trying to think about sweaty men in tight shorts doesn't mean you're gay.
Wait a minute, yes it does.

i really think you might be a gay man cujo

it's ok to be

we have no free will but there has been some decent research into the links between homophobia and actual homosexuality

just take a swig..sit back and allow your willy to be nibbled

by a hunky canadian with wide shoulders and perfect teeth

and a beard