What Will It Take To Get Rid Of ISIS?

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Originally Posted by Neverna

There has already been a period/movement of Islamic reformism/modernism, as well as revivalism, and other movements. They helped get us to where we are today.

I don't think it was the sum of those movements that produced the entrenched chaos we see today. Rather, I'm persuaded that other historical forces (rapid imperialism, decay of the Turkish Caliphate, widespread resistance to modern (read alien) thought on social progress, etc) had as large an influence...influential Muslims sought solace in the 7th century to save Islam...and that's a revolution in itself...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neverna

You mean like the Arab Spring? Look how that's turned out so far.

...that fact that the Arab Spring occurred at all suggests increasing awareness among the oppressed Arab masses that more freedom is at least possible...though the struggle to rid themselves of entrenched thugs will always be brutal...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neverna

Tunisians make up the greatest number of IS recruits

...irrelevant: these recruits were not likely to have carved out successful lives (materially, at least) whether in France or Tunisia...what did they have to lose, one might ask, by hoping for a better deal in Heaven...

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Originally Posted by Neverna

I think not

...agree...:rofl:

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Originally Posted by tomcat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neverna

There has already been a period/movement of Islamic reformism/modernism, as well as revivalism, and other movements. They helped get us to where we are today.

I don't think it was the sum of those movements that produced the entrenched chaos we see today. Rather, I'm persuaded that other historical forces (rapid imperialism, decay of the Turkish Caliphate, widespread resistance to modern (read alien) thought on social progress, etc) had as large an influence...influential Muslims sought solace in the 7th century to save Islam...and that's a revolution in itself...

I didn't suggest it was the sum of those movements. I was just pointing out that there has already been a reform movement (and other movements), but that does not mean you will get or end up with a type of Islam that you approve of.

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Originally Posted by tomcat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neverna

Tunisians make up the greatest number of IS recruits

...irrelevant:

Not irrelevant to debunk the argument you put forward, that reform will come "possibly sooner" to those countries "closer to Europe, with greater western exposure and a steady stream of international travellers". Tnisnis (and all the countries all around the Mediterranean) fits your proximity idea, and Tunisia, (along with Morocco and Egypt) fits the steady stream of international travellers part. It rather seems to me that proximity to Europe and a steady stream of international travellers did nothing to reform the tens of thousands of Tunisians away from radical thinking and actions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcat

these recruits were not likely to have carved out successful lives (materially, at least) whether in France or Tunisia...

How would you know?

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Originally Posted by tomcat

what did they have to lose, one might ask, by hoping for a better deal in Heaven...

More likely is that the hope of a better life in the "Islamic State" was what initially attracted a lot of them, with heaven only playing a part in the thinking of those who mainly or only went to fight.

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Originally Posted by Neverna

but that does not mean you will get or end up with a type of Islam that you approve of.

of course not...silly to even suggest such a notion...

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Originally Posted by Neverna

debunk the argument you put forward

ffs, we're just having a chat, not engaging in a formal debate...

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Originally Posted by Neverna

How would you know?

well, I looked at the Muslim slums surrounding Paris and Marseille and made a guess...doesn't seem outlandish to me

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Originally Posted by Neverna

with heaven only playing a part in the thinking of those who mainly or only went to fight.

*cough*...how would you know?...

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Originally Posted by tomcat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neverna

but that does not mean you will get or end up with a type of Islam that you approve of.

of course not...silly to even suggest such a notion...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neverna

debunk the argument you put forward

ffs, we're just having a chat, not engaging in a formal debate...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neverna

How would you know?

well, I looked at the Muslim slums surrounding Paris and Marseille and made a guess...doesn't seem outlandish to me

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Originally Posted by Neverna

with heaven only playing a part in the thinking of those who mainly or only went to fight.

*cough*...how would you know?...

1. Gald you agree.
2. So you give up. Fair enough. ;)
3. Paris and Marseille? 55 I wasn't talking about French Muslims.
4. I wouldn't. That's why I started the sentence with: "More likely is that..."

:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neverna

There has already been a period/movement of Islamic reformism/modernism, as well as revivalism, and other movements. They helped get us to where we are today.

I don't think it was the sum of those movements that produced the entrenched chaos we see today. Rather, I'm persuaded that other historical forces (rapid imperialism, decay of the Turkish Caliphate, widespread resistance to modern (read alien) thought on social progress, etc) had as large an influence...influential Muslims sought solace in the 7th century to save Islam...and that's a revolution in itself...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neverna

You mean like the Arab Spring? Look how that's turned out so far.

...that fact that the Arab Spring occurred at all suggests increasing awareness among the oppressed Arab masses that more freedom is at least possible...though the struggle to rid themselves of entrenched thugs will always be brutal...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neverna

Tunisians make up the greatest number of IS recruits

...irrelevant: these recruits were not likely to have carved out successful lives (materially, at least) whether in France or Tunisia...what did they have to lose, one might ask, by hoping for a better deal in Heaven...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neverna

I think not

...agree...:rofl:

Have you read Milestones, by Sayyid Qutb? That's the foundation document of modern jihaddism, every modern jihadi movement springs from that. Salafist fundamentalism is a modern thing, it has no basis in any movement or group prior to the 1950s.

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Originally Posted by Neverna

So you give up.

You felt we were engaged in a struggle of some sort then...

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Originally Posted by Neverna

I wasn't talking about French Muslims.

...try to keep up...

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Originally Posted by Neverna

I wouldn't

*sigh*...heavens! Is that the time?...

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Originally Posted by DrB0b

Have you read Milestones, by Sayyid Qutb?

no, but I have read the annotated Dr. Seuss...

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Originally Posted by tomcat

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Have you read Milestones, by Sayyid Qutb?

no, but I have read the annotated Dr. Seuss...

My apologies. I thought your earlier post was a serious comment of the origins of Islamic fundamentalism. I won't make that mistake again. I'll leave you to your ill-informed speculation.

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Originally Posted by DrB0b

My apologies.

Accepted, of course, though suggesting that not having read one book makes speculation on a forum ill-informed is a rather silly notion...

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Originally Posted by tomcat

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrB0b

My apologies.

Accepted, of course, though suggesting that not having read one book makes speculation on a forum ill-informed is a rather silly notion...

Hardly. Talking about jihadism without reference to Sayid Qutb is like talking about Christianity without referring to the New Testament. Why don't you just take a few minutes to find out who he is and what his influence has been? What is silly, and frankly bizarre in anybody claiming an interest in a subject, is wilfully ignoring something fundamental just because you hadn't heard of it before.

You may not have heard of Qutb or his brother Mohammed but surely you've heard of two of their most ardent disciples, Ayman al Zawahiri and Osama bin Laden. It was Qutb who invented the concept of Takfir, If you know what that is, and it was Qutb who inspired Abdullah Azzam, the inventor of the concept of proactive jihadism.

You may feel comfortable spouting your nonsense about "historical forces" but it is still nothing more than nonsense and the fact that you have no interest in the real facts behind modern Islamic fundamentalism puts you firmly in the camp of ignorant, wilfully ignorant, windbags.

This is a general Thailand-based forum, ol' Bob, not an academic conference...your display of erudition to dazzle the masses is indeed marvelous but, I'm afraid, wasted on many (if not all) who post here...still, the caravan moves on and thanks you for your contribution...

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Originally Posted by tomcat

This is a general Thailand-based forum, ol' Bob, not an academic conference...your display of erudition to dazzle the masses is indeed marvelous but, I'm afraid, wasted on many (if not all) who post here...still, the caravan moves on and thanks you for your contribution...

Does that mean we get a well-deserved rest from such nonsense as

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcat

I don't think it was the sum of those movements that produced the entrenched chaos we see today. Rather, I'm persuaded that other historical forces (rapid imperialism, decay of the Turkish Caliphate, widespread resistance to modern (read alien) thought on social progress, etc) had as large an influence...influential Muslims sought solace in the 7th century to save Islam...and that's a revolution in itself...

After all, if you can be ignorant and foolish about Islam on this "general Thailand-based forum" I see no reason why I shouldn't, in contrast, be dazzling, erudite, and well informed.

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Originally Posted by DrB0b

I see no reason why I shouldn't, in contrast, be dazzling, erudite, and well informed.

...indeed, you are probably all of that and so much more...and many thanks for generously sharing your penetrating insight and illuminating wisdom with folks much less involved in the topic than your well-informed self...may I also suggest that modesty likely prevents you from offering even greater displays of intellect...and for that, I am grateful...

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Originally Posted by tomcat

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrB0b

I see no reason why I shouldn't, in contrast, be dazzling, erudite, and well informed.

...indeed, you are probably all of that and so much more...and many thanks for generously sharing your penetrating insight and illuminating wisdom with folks much less involved in the topic than your well-informed self...may I also suggest that modesty likely prevents you from offering even greater displays of intellect...and for that, I am grateful...

As you should be. No need for such overt displays of gratitude, though. I consider it no more than my duty to help the less well-endowed deal with what, for them, can be a complex and confusing world.

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Originally Posted by DrB0b

I consider it no more than my duty to help the less well-endowed deal with what, for them, can be a complex and confusing world

...a duty bestowed by the Queen, no doubt...

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Originally Posted by tomcat

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrB0b

I consider it no more than my duty to help the less well-endowed deal with what, for them, can be a complex and confusing world

...a duty bestowed by the Queen, no doubt...

You'd know that better than I. BTW have you noticed your post about the cryptic rty message has been deleted ?

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Originally Posted by DrB0b

BTW have you noticed your post about the cryptic rty message has been deleted ?

I hadn't...what does it mean?

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Originally Posted by tomcat

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrB0b

BTW have you noticed your post about the cryptic rty message has been deleted ?

I hadn't...what does it mean?

It means a moderator deleted the thread or post and it's now inaccessible to anybody who's not a moderator. The message you quoted meant that a post by Ray Carey had been deleted from speakers corner because a moderator had decided it was "crap". It's not only you who can't access it, no regular poster can.

thank you...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcat

This is a general Thailand-based forum, ol' Bob, not an academic conference...your display of erudition to dazzle the masses is indeed marvelous but, I'm afraid, wasted on many (if not all) who post here...

Not wasted at all. It's good to know that others are informed on the subject and if you are interested in the subject, you will like it even more when you know more about it.

Milestones by Sayid Qutb - worth knowing something about (the book, the author, the book's influence).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milestones_(book)

If you want to know how Saudi Arabia got into the business of exporting radical islam...

https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2017/03/650.jpg

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Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

If you want to know how Saudi Arabia got into the business of exporting radical islam...

"Milestones by Sayyid Qutb"
...recommended by a local scholar with lots of free time...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcat

..and it won't end until Muslims accept a more enlightened form of Islam (think Reformation),

There was a report in the Independent of a meeting in Russia of a large group of Islamic clerics, all flavours. Allegedly they have excommunicated the SA sunis as fit and proper holders of the Muslim places of holy relics and leadership accusing the SA branch of all sorts of non Muslim behaviour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhOh

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcat

..and it won't end until Muslims accept a more enlightened form of Islam (think Reformation),

There was a report in the Independent of a meeting in Russia of a large group of Islamic clerics, all flavours. Allegedly they have excommunicated the SA sunis as fit and proper holders of the Muslim places of holy relics and leadership accusing the SA branch of all sorts of non Muslim behaviour.

There is a reason why the King's title of "Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques" is normally referred to as "Custodian of the Two Holy Chequebooks".

:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

If you want to know how Saudi Arabia got into the business of exporting radical islam...

https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2017/03/650.jpg

Just one of the many Muslim majority nations where the pious are tired of violence and living in peace with each other- and their neighbors :D