The Confederate Flag

**melvin** · 03-07-2015, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Dragonfly94

Lincoln said:
There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people to the idea of indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races ... A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as an immediate separation is impossible, the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. If white and black people never get together in Kansas, they will never mix blood in Kansas ...

2. On shipping blacks back to Africa:

Lincoln said:
In the language of Mr. Jefferson, uttered many years ago, "It is still in our power to direct the process of emancipation, and deportation, peaceably, and in such slow degrees, as that the evil will wear off insensibly; and in their places be, pari passu [on an equal basis], filled up by free white laborers."
3. On outlawing slavery in the south (before the rebellion).

Lincoln said:
I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.

4. On equality:

Lincoln said:
I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.

5. On inter-racial marriage:

Lincoln said:
Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.

Lincoln would have been appalled at the thought of a black, or as he put it a mixed breed bastard president, but then he was a racist

Are your points 4. and 5. well documented?

**melvin** · 03-07-2015, 10:55 PM

Have spent a couple of days reading and digesting this thread.
Find it both interesting and informative.

Ain't gonna engage in the debate I'm not a USAer, although my mother was a USAer.

Just wanna relate from my education in northern Europe:

Lincoln was "conveyed" as the hero,
the fore front fighter for equal rights for blacks and whites.

The civil war was not described as a slavery/not slavery disagreement.
The slavery/not slavery issue was largely conveyed as being a smoke screen to justify the civil war.
The substance of the civil war was largely explained as a conflict re financial issues.
The north having elaborate industry, hence, fancying import/export controls and the option to levy taxes/customs when they felt fit.
The south being largely agrar fancying free flow of finance, people and goods.

****************
Not sure why I'm saying this. Just thought I'd share my background info.
However, I'm pretty sure that if you run around the world you would see the
civil war presented in a large variety of dressings.

Who can claim that their dressing is right?

**DrB0b** · 03-07-2015, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by YOrlov

Before the Confederate flag was appropriated by redneck racists, it was about state's rights. The Civil War was not just about ending slavery but a struggle against the federal govt imposing morality upon states, which run's counter to America's guiding principle of freedom.

The state should hold a referendum to remove it or not and I agree with many sentiments no state should have a US flag above its statehouse. It is The United States of America.

Then why did the confederate states explicitly state that they were seceding because they wanted to keep slaves?

**DrB0b** · 03-07-2015, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by melvin

Originally Posted by Dragonfly94

Lincoln said:
There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people to the idea of indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races ... A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as an immediate separation is impossible, the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. If white and black people never get together in Kansas, they will never mix blood in Kansas ...

2. On shipping blacks back to Africa:

Lincoln said:
In the language of Mr. Jefferson, uttered many years ago, "It is still in our power to direct the process of emancipation, and deportation, peaceably, and in such slow degrees, as that the evil will wear off insensibly; and in their places be, pari passu [on an equal basis], filled up by free white laborers."
3. On outlawing slavery in the south (before the rebellion).

Lincoln said:
I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.

4. On equality:

Lincoln said:
I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.

5. On inter-racial marriage:

Lincoln said:
Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.

Lincoln would have been appalled at the thought of a black, or as he put it a mixed breed bastard president, but then he was a racist

Are your points 4. and 5. well documented?

He has taken some of the quotes out of context in order to give them meanings they didn't originally have. Search google for the quotes and you'll see that somehave quite different meanings when placed in the correct context. However, if all he's trying to say is that Lincoln was a racist then he's right, he was. What he was not, though, was a man who could stomach the evil of slavery. It's possible to be a racist and still find slavery disgusting. Lincoln was a racist, I fail to see how that affects anything.

As an example of context here's the context around quote #1 above.

In the language of Mr. Jefferson, uttered many years ago, "It is still in our power to direct the process of emancipation, and deportation, peaceably, and in such slow degrees, as that the evil will wear off insensibly; and their places be, pari passu, filled up by free white laborers. If, on the contrary, it is left to force itself on, human nature must shudder at the prospect held up."

Mr. Jefferson did not mean to say, nor do I, that the power of emancipation is in the Federal Government. He spoke of Virginia; and, as to the power of emancipation, I speak of the slaveholding States only. The Federal Government, however, as we insist, has the power of restraining the extension of the institution - the power to insure that a slave insurrection shall never occur on any American soil which is now free from slavery.

John Brown's effort was peculiar. It was not a slave insurrection. It was an attempt by white men to get up a revolt among slaves, in which the slaves refused to participate. In fact, it was so absurd that the slaves, with all their ignorance, saw plainly enough it could not succeed. That affair, in its philosophy, corresponds with the many attempts, related in history, at the assassination of kings and emperors. An enthusiast broods over the oppression of a people till he fancies himself commissioned by Heaven to liberate them. He ventures the attempt, which ends in little else than his own execution. Orsini's attempt on Louis Napoleon, and John Brown's attempt at Harper's Ferry were, in their philosophy, precisely the same. The eagerness to cast blame on old England in the one case, and on New England in the other, does not disprove the sameness of the two things.

And how much would it avail you, if you could, by the use of John Brown, Helper's Book, and the like, break up the Republican organization? Human action can be modified to some extent, but human nature cannot be changed. There is a judgment and a feeling against slavery in this nation, which cast at least a million and a half of votes. You cannot destroy that judgment and feeling - that sentiment - by breaking up the political organization which rallies around it. You can scarcely scatter and disperse an army which has been formed into order in the face of your heaviest fire; but if you could, how much would you gain by forcing the sentiment which created it out of the peaceful channel of the ballot-box, into some other channel? What would that other channel probably be? Would the number of John Browns be lessened or enlarged by the operation?

But you will break up the Union rather than submit to a denial of your Constitutional rights.

That has a somewhat reckless sound; but it would be palliated, if not fully justified, were we proposing, by the mere force of numbers, to deprive you of some right, plainly written down in the Constitution. But we are proposing no such thing.

When you make these declarations, you have a specific and well-understood allusion to an assumed Constitutional right of yours, to take slaves into the federal territories, and to hold them there as property. But no such right is specifically written in the Constitution. That instrument is literally silent about any such right. We, on the contrary, deny that such a right has any existence in the Constitution, even by implication.

Lincoln was a man of his time, he was a bigot and a racist. He was also a politician who wanted to preserve the union. However, he also strongly beloved that the institution of slavery was evil and whatever about his belief in the inferiority of blacks the fact remains that he abolished slavery in the US. People like what'shisname up there are incapable of understanding that people may be both bad and good. A bigot may hate slavery, a murderer may hate rapists, people are, you know, complicated.

Nevertheless, in that he abolished slavery and emancipated the slaves the fact remains the Lincoln was one of the greatest Americans that ever lived.

**Dragonfly94** · 03-07-2015, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by YOrlov

Before the Confederate flag was appropriated by redneck racists, it was about state's rights. The Civil War was not just about ending slavery but a struggle against the federal govt imposing morality upon states, which run's counter to America's guiding principle of freedom.

The state should hold a referendum to remove it or not and I agree with many sentiments no state should have a US flag above its statehouse. It is The United States of America.

Then why did the confederate states explicitly state that they were seceding because they wanted to keep slaves?

Why did 4 slave states fight for the union?

**Dragonfly94** · 03-07-2015, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by DrB0b

. A bigot may hate slavery, a murderer may hate rapists, people are, you know, complicated.

.

Therefore a person might be fair and non racist but still be proud of the confederate flag then.

**Dragonfly94** · 03-07-2015, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Nevertheless, in that he abolished slavery and emancipated the slaves the fact remains the Lincoln was one of the greatest Americans that ever lived.

But his only motive in doing so was to win the war, he planned to ship the darkies back where they came from. Where is the evidence he found slavery evil? One of the greatest tyrants in American history and a very poor war leader. His early appointments of commanders were a disaster that almost cost him the war. Anyway, he got what he deserved in the end.

https://snapoutofitamerica.wordpress...nfederate-war/

**DrB0b** · 03-07-2015, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Dragonfly94

Originally Posted by DrB0b

. A bigot may hate slavery, a murderer may hate rapists, people are, you know, complicated.

.

Therefore a person might be fair and non racist but still be proud of the confederate flag then.

Nope. The confederate battle flag was created as a symbol of the slave-holding states and celebrates a vicious way of life that kidnapped human beings and turned them into property. If that flag had been created, say, 30 years before the civil war then there might be a point to that argument. It wasn't. It was created as a symbol of a people who went to war to keep their slaves. The confederate flag doesn't have, and never had, any other meaning than being a symbol of the slave-holding states. Here's a similar question, "Can a German who is fair and non-racist be proud of the Blutfahne?" Answer to that one is the same as the answer to your statement. No!

**Rainfall** · 04-07-2015, 05:52 AM

I'm proud of it. It's a symbol of old, when only the king was entitled to impose the death penalty.

My, Bob, when I listen to you I'm really attempted to believe that hundreds of thousands of white Yankees gave their lives joyfully in order to free the black man.

**Boon Mee** · 04-07-2015, 05:56 AM

It was all just manufactured outrage. Those stupid enough to even ban the show Dukes of Hazzard are left with mucho egg on face.

**Humbert** · 04-07-2015, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by Dragonfly94

Therefore a person might be fair and non racist but still be proud of the confederate flag then.

These twisted arguments, half truths and distortions of history will win people over. Some will use these arguments to justify their own bigotry. Lincoln was a hypocrite therefore it's OK to be a racist. The American Nazi Party, KKK and other white supremecist hate groups use these same arguments all the time. Dylann Roof bought in and 9 innocent people lost their lives. People are free to be racists just as they are free to believe that men roamed the earth along with dinosaurs. There are no laws controlling thought. There are laws controlling discrimination, segregation, voting rights, and hate crimes. They are the only firewall society has against the haters among us who act on their racist views. The flag? Its a symbol of hate for most blacks and many whites. For some whites it's a symbol of hate, a hate to revel in and be proud of. For some whites its just a symbol of bygone times and a vague sense of nostalgia for the confederate cause. But it needs to come down from public buildings period.

**Boon Mee** · 04-07-2015, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by Humbert

People are free to be racists just as they are free to believe that men roamed the earth along with dinosaurs..

Say it isn't so!

**Humbert** · 04-07-2015, 06:36 AM

^Good one Boon Mee!

**Boon Mee** · 04-07-2015, 08:31 AM

Black Veteran, A ‘Son Of The South, Defends The Confederate Flag

Of course Humbert and others would call this guy an Uncle Tom no doubt.

In 2001, the Taliban shamelessly dynamited the Bamiyan Buddhas, two of the largest such carvings of the ancient world. Built in the 6th century by monks who made their homes along the Silk Road, the Buddahs stood for millenia until fundamentalists removed them from the face of the Earth. Such ignorance still abounds. Over the past few months, the onslaught of the Islamic State has wrought the systematic destruction of cultural artifacts from Palmyra to Nineva, all because they were deemed “offensive” by a minority that if it had its way, would ensure the entire world would adhere to a dark and revisionist existence.

A couple of days ago, in the wake of a childish debate over a memorial flag flown near a Confederate statue, a Southern monument was ignorantly desecrated with an attempt at the “Black Lives Matter” slogan. The spray-painted phrase was misspelled. The inanimate statue, a solemn reminder of the South’s fallen sons, didn’t take away any citizen’s pursuit of happiness, it didn’t interfere with the social and racial disparities that some claim as a detriment to advancement — it simply stood there, silent and bold, marking the bravery and errors of yesterday’s determinations."

Black veteran, a 'Son of the South,' defends the Confederate flag | AL.com

**Humbert** · 04-07-2015, 08:35 AM

^KKK propaganda. Where do they dig this shit up?

**Sumbitch** · 04-07-2015, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Humbert

leave the humor to Boon Mee.

I agree. Check this out...

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

In the end, what does it matter?

**Dragonfly94** · 04-07-2015, 12:33 PM

Fly the flag and fuk the liberals and Yankees who preach freedom, but only for their beliefs and values.

**bsnub** · 04-07-2015, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Rainfall

but understand that there's class warfare, and all other divisions, race, religion, culture, homos, while they certainly exist, are used to distract from the most fundamental war.

Precisely.

**harrybarracuda** · 04-07-2015, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

It was all just manufactured outrage. Those stupid enough to even ban the show Dukes of Hazzard are left with mucho egg on face.

It's a business decision Booners. They've found out it insults a large segment of their viewers, so they've pulled it. Probably replaced it with something all those viewers will watch, so they can sell more advertising.

I thought you were in favour of the free market?

**VocalNeal** · 04-07-2015, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by melvin

The north having elaborate industry,
The south being largely agrarian

Could this have anythinf to do with it?

Since the South is still agrarian but all the industry in the north is well...in China?

**ltnt** · 04-07-2015, 02:47 PM

Actually not true. Loads of industry in the south these days...Texas for one big one!

Cotton industry was big as was furniture building, tobacco processing and manufacturing, oil, gas, hi-tech in Austin, all sorts of manufacturing enterprises, car factories...honda, toyota...nice try, no cigar.

**Boon Mee** · 04-07-2015, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

It was all just manufactured outrage. Those stupid enough to even ban the show Dukes of Hazzard are left with mucho egg on face.

It's a business decision Booners. They've found out it insults a large segment of their viewers, so they've pulled it. Probably replaced it with something all those viewers will watch, so they can sell more advertising.

If pulling Dukes of Hazzard was a business decision then it was a bad one.

Didn't get the memo? Attitudes in America toward the Confederate Flag haven't changed.

**bsnub** · 04-07-2015, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by ltnt

Loads of industry in the south these days

A drop in the bucket. The dipshits still cant build airplanes.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

If pulling Dukes of Hazzard was a business decision then it was a bad one.

Agreed. That was a bridge to far. PC bullshit.

**ltnt** · 04-07-2015, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by bsnub

A drop in the bucket. The dipshits still cant build airplanes.

Better tell that to Lockheed Martin in Georgia...you should bone up a bit bs...there's another small one in Florida as well, but then you know it all don't you?

Beechcraft for example...tard!

**bsnub** · 04-07-2015, 04:43 PM

Umm look up the facts. The plant in SC is garbage. They produce one plane for every nine that Everett does. Union strong so fuck off!

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