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  1. #176
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    All answered for you already throughout the thread. If you want to believe that politicians run the world, then go ahead. If you want to believe they want what is best for the people of their countries, then go ahead. If you want to believe that elections make a difference then go ahead. You keep mentioning "mature democracy". What does this mean? It is a meaningless mantra pumped out by the politicians and the media but it actually does not mean anything because what we laughingly think of as democracy is not democracy at all. You can never be president / PM if you are not hand selected by the elders of one of a few political parties - these parties are basically the same. Lots of talk at election time, but nothing changes. People get in more debt and poorer. The country gets shitter. The money is funnelled away as fast as they can make it and it all happens under the watch of a load of hand picked toffs and millionaires reading scripts.

    As for //// does the government know? What a daft question. Makes me believe you are intellectually challenged, not reading anything, just being deliberately obtuse, or more likely just refuse to believe that the precious elected politicians that you love could be anything other than sold out corrupt money grabbing mouth pieces for the people that actually own the world.

    What do politicians aligned with one of the established political parties actually do? What do they really do? Answer? Nothing. Absolutely nothing for themselves, but push through legislation that benefits their party's financial backers. That is it. Nothing else. They do what they are told. Vote how they are told and only occasionally when they go to far do they pretend to listen to the people of the country.

    I can not think of a single altruistic act by a politician from the major parties on both sides of the Atlantic. Not one. I can think of lots that have been passed off through the media PR machine as being altruistic but when your scratch beneath the surface you realise it is not.

    Next one - Facebook buys drones to connect the world, free, to facebook. Very nice of them, heh? So altruistic to do such a thing. Lovely people.

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilbert
    If you want to believe they want what is best for the people of their countries, then go ahead.
    I think most politicians are in the game of poitics because they hold beliefs about the way society should be run. If they were only interested in personal gain then politics is not that lucrative in a society that has largely outgrown corruption. There is much more money to be made in business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilbert
    You can never be president / PM if you are not hand selected by the elders of one of a few political parties
    Prime ministers and Presidents are powerful people in their own right. They are occasionally puppets but not often. Margaret Thatcher, John Howard, Tony Abbott, Kevin Rudd are all leaders who have been broadly accused of not listening to their party room and implementing policy without sufficient consultation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilbert
    The country gets shitter.
    Countries are not in general getting shitter. Per Capita GDP levels are generally rising each decade. Quality of life indices are generally rising. Rates of civil and international violence are generally falling. The world is gradually getting the hang of how large scale society and a global community are best managed. It is a slow learning process but we are gradually getting better at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilbert
    The money is funnelled away as fast as they can make it and it all happens under the watch of a load of hand picked toffs and millionaires reading scripts.
    Governments publish detailed budgets before they spend any money and all the money has to be accounted for in the glare of the public eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilbert
    What do politicians aligned with one of the established political parties actually do? What do they really do? Answer? Nothing. Absolutely nothing for themselves, but push through legislation that benefits their party's financial backers.
    Legislation is very often at the expense of big business (Australian Mining Tax, Harsh penalties for price-fixing and insider trading) and for the benefit of the general population (Healthcare programs, social security, minimum wage increases). Governments cannot act without getting voted in and they do so on the basis of a manifesto of policies and they are then harshly criticised if they fail to implement these polices and are voted out. That is how democracy works.

  3. #178
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    Evidence pro-Russian demonstrators in eastern Ukraine being paid

    The United States says there is strong evidence that pro-Russian demonstrators in eastern Ukraine are being paid.

    Pro-Moscow protesters have seized arms in one city and declared a separatist republic in another, in the latest moves Kiev has described as part of a Russian-orchestrated plan to justify an invasion to dismember the country.

    Kiev said the seizure of public buildings in three cities in eastern Ukraine's mainly Russian-speaking industrial heartland were a replay of events in Crimea, the Black Sea peninsula Moscow seized and annexed last month.

    "An anti-Ukrainian plan is being put into operation ... under which foreign troops will cross the border and seize the territory of the country," prime minister Arseny Yatseniuk said in public remarks to his cabinet. "We will not allow this."

    Pro-Russian protesters seized official buildings in the eastern cities of Kharkiv, Luhansk and Donetsk on Sunday night, demanding that referendums be held on whether to join Russia like the one that preceded Moscow's takeover of Crimea.

    Acting president Oleksander Turchinov, in a televised address to the nation, said Moscow was attempting to repeat "the Crimea scenario".
    He added that "anti-terrorist measures" would be deployed against those who had taken up arms.

    White House warns of new sanctions


    The White House said some of the demonstrators who took over a government building and proclaimed independence from Ukraine were not local residents.

    "I think that at least suggests that outside forces, not local forces, were participating in the effort to create these provocations," White House spokesman Jay Carney said.

    "What's clear is that this is a result of increased Russian pressure on Ukraine. If Russia moves into eastern Ukraine either overtly or covertly, this would be a serious escalation."

    Mr Carney said the Obama administration has new sanctions ready to go if Russia violates Ukrainian sovereignty, and warned president Vladimir Putin and his government to cease all efforts to destabilise Ukraine.

    Talks between Washington, Russia, Ukraine and the European Union will to seek to find a way to calm the political crisis in Ukraine.

    State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said secretary of state John Kerry had discussed holding such four-way talks in a call with his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov.

    But she also echoed an earlier warning that Washington saw the hand of Moscow behind some of the unrest in eastern Ukraine.

    "He conveyed to Foreign Minister Lavrov that the United States is watching events over the last 24 hours in Kharkiv, Donetsk, Lugansk and Mariupol with great concern and noted that these do not appear to be a spontaneous set of events," Ms Psaki said.

    Evidence pro-Russian demonstrators in eastern Ukraine being paid: White House - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

  4. #179
    Member Gilbert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    The United States says there is strong evidence that pro-Russian demonstrators in eastern Ukraine are being paid.
    The fricking nerve of these american war mongers. they openly invested $5B in the regime change there. They boasted about it.

  5. #180
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    The only act of war mongering that has taken place is the massing of Russian armed forces at Ukraine's border and the illegal moving of the border of Ukraine by Vladimir Putin. The rest is politics.

  6. #181
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    Just a general statement. I am quite angry about the attitude of the USA.

    However if anybody believes the world will be a better place if the USA lose the position of the no. 1 superpower to Russia or China he is seriously delusional.

    It is Russia that is using military force to rip Ukraine apart. And they are not stopping after Crimea.
    "don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence"

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers
    Just a general statement. I am quite angry about the attitude of the USA.
    Nice to see a bit of honesty - that's how the rest of the world has been feeling for years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers
    However if anybody believes the world will be a better place if the USA lose the position of the no. 1 superpower to Russia or China he is seriously delusional.
    Bollocks - the US has been a disgusting, greedy leader. China and Russia don't start wars everywhere to steal sovereign resources under a cloud of humanitarian aid.

    Oh look, the US has sent in 150 Greystone militia dressed up as Ukrainian police.
    to kick the war off proper.

    In Moscow, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Tuesday that the United States, not Russia, was responsible for sowing discord in Ukraine.



    “Our American partners are trying to assess the situation,” Lavrov told reporters, “applying their habits to others.”


    The Russian Foreign Ministry charged that ultra-nationalists from Ukraine’s Right Sector movement and American mercenaries were among the police that Kiev sent to eastern Ukraine to quell the violence.


    “We are particularly concerned that the operation involves some 150 American mercenaries from a private company Greystone Ltd., dressed in the uniform of the [Ukrainian] special task police unit Sokol,”



    the ministry said in a statement posted on its Web site Tuesday morning. It called for an immediate halt to “all military preparations which could lead to a civil war.”


    Tense stand-off in eastern Ukraine could shape country's future - The Washington Post



    Do as I say - but not what I do.

    Wankers.

  8. #183
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    This is where the armed professionals come in.



    The protesters, after several moments of shock, start shouting, “Blackwater!,” and “Mercenaries!,” as well as “Faggots!,” and “Who are you going to shoot at?!



    But the armed men drive off in the blink of an eye without saying a word.



    Surely these men were not Blackwater – simply because such a company does not exist anymore. It has changed its name twice in recent years and is now called Academi.



    The latest article on the case, published by the Daily Mail, claims that though these people did look like professional mercenaries, they conducted the operation too openly.



    On the face of it, the uniforms of the people in the videos are consistent with US mercs - they don't look like Russian soldiers mercs. On the other hand, why run around in public making a show of it?” said DM Dr Nafeez Ahmed, a security expert with the Institute for Policy Research & Development.



    I think the question is whether the evidence available warrants at least reasonable speculation.”

    Ahmed also added that “Of course the other possibility is it's all Russian propaganda.”



    Why would Russia need to make such provocation? The Daily Mail explained that “any suggestion that a US mercenary outfit like Blackwater, known now as Academi, had begun operating in east Ukraine could give Russian President Vladimir Putin the pretext for a military invasion.



    Other western media outlets are maintaining that a “Russian invasion” has already began, because the heavily armed military personnel now controlling all major infrastructure in Crimea are “obviously” Russians.



    US Contractor Greystone Denies Its 'Mercenaries' in Ukraine - ABC News


    Kremlin accuses US security firm of sending 'private army' to Ukraine | Mail Online


    http://rt.com/op-edge/ukraine-blackw...es-russia-794/

  9. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilbert
    You keep mentioning "mature democracy". What does this mean?
    It means 'Your' democracy, not Mine. It means I can countenance the breaking of democratic principles, the rule of law, Constitution etc, in your democracy, but not mine. Because ours is mature, you see. It is the mark of the hypocrite, worldwide. But as Chomsky reminds us, we are all hypocrites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    "I think that at least suggests that outside forces, not local forces, were participating in the effort to create these provocations," White House spokesman Jay Carney said.
    So soon after the, erm, revelation that US mercenaries are dressing up as Ukrainian security forces? Tsk, tsk. The White House has called wolf so many times, it has lost it's credibility. Their utterances are greeted with cynicism and disbelief now, sometimes wrongly sometimes not. They're right about something though- plenty of lies and bullshit out there.

  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
    Why would Russia need to make such provocation?
    They need military intervention as they know they cannot win in a referendum.



    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
    The protesters, after several moments of shock, start shouting, “Blackwater!,” and “Mercenaries!,” as well as “Faggots!,” and “Who are you going to shoot at?!”
    Which, if true, would prove nothing other than they are well trained mercenary provocateurs hellbent on causing trouble to create a basis for russian military intervention.

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    Legislation is very often at the expense of big business (Australian Mining Tax, Harsh penalties for price-fixing and insider trading) and for the benefit of the general population (Healthcare programs, social security, minimum wage increases). Governments cannot act without getting voted in and they do so on the basis of a manifesto of policies and they are then harshly criticised if they fail to implement these polices and are voted out. That is how democracy works.
    There is no utopia such as described by you. Very rich individuals and corporations tell the governments what to do, and if they don't comply, the governments get overthrown or the rich ones pull their funds and go elsewhere. Voting is pointless for the voter, all politicians do what they are told by the money. Sometimes there is an unruly politician like Kevin Rudd who suggested an Australian Mining Tax. The mining coporations just started a smear campaign against him until he was removed from office, and his replacements have learned the lesson on who is above autonomous government policies.
    Boon Mee: 'Israel is the 51st State. De facto - but none the less, essentially part & parcel of the USA.'

  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    What if Obama or any other western leader annexed a chunk of a neighbouring country on some flimsy protectionist pretence? Would it all be cool bananas?
    What like afghanistan or Iraq
    Hadn't realized those were now US territories, when did that happen? I was certain they had their own citizen elected governments in place and everything. Damn! wha da you know? Learn something new every day.

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
    Why would Russia need to make such provocation?
    They need military intervention as they know they cannot win in a referendum.



    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
    The protesters, after several moments of shock, start shouting, “Blackwater!,” and “Mercenaries!,” as well as “Faggots!,” and “Who are you going to shoot at?!”
    Which, if true, would prove nothing other than they are well trained mercenary provocateurs hellbent on causing trouble to create a basis for russian military intervention.
    Cannot win a referendum? - did you miss the recent Crimean vote?

    In regards to the mercenaries what I read from the video is angry locals (relative to where the film was take) telling paid mercenaries to fuck off and stop meddling.

    That's the point.

    Fuck off - and stop meddling. In every fucking country all over the world. Now. You fucks.

    Stop telling everyone how to live by your righteous "interpretation of democracy" while covertly carpet bombing innocent poor people the length and breadth of the planet with conventional and chemical weapons.

    Never signed Kyoto
    Invented fracking.

    Destroyed hard working peoples finances and essentially robbed them blind via a manipulated war/financial collapse funded by drug running under the guise on a fucking war on drugs..

    Yeah - fuck right off.

  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaBorn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    What if Obama or any other western leader annexed a chunk of a neighbouring country on some flimsy protectionist pretence? Would it all be cool bananas?
    What like afghanistan or Iraq
    Hadn't realized those were now US territories, when did that happen? I was certain they had their own citizen elected governments in place and everything. Damn! wha da you know? Learn something new every day.
    Hadn't realized those were US territories?

    Wonder what the families and friends of the million Iraqis and Afghani people you've slaughtered feel about that?

    To do that sick shit - you obviously think you rule the place.

    Actions speak louder than words.

    "there own elected governments"


    elected by who - Halliburton?

    Go back to sleep America.

  15. #190
    Thailand Expat HermantheGerman's Avatar
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    Why don't we just call Crimea the Puerto Rico of Russia.

    In 1948, it granted Puerto Ricans the right to elect their own governor. In 1952, under request by the United States, a local territorial constitution was adopted and ratified by the electorate. Under the tenets of the Puerto Rico Federal Relations Act, Puerto Ricans are still subject to the plenary jurisdiction of the U.S. Congress, and the island continues as a U.S. territory.

  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
    Cannot win a referendum? - did you miss the recent Crimean vote?
    We are not talking about Crimea here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
    In regards to the mercenaries what I read from the video is angry locals (relative to where the film was take) telling paid mercenaries to fuck off and stop meddling.
    How do you know that? The video doesn't prove anything. There is no way of telling that those are locals. They could be Russian provocateurs just as easily. You are just drawing conclusions that you want to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
    Wonder what the families and friends of the million Iraqis and Afghani people you've slaughtered feel about that?
    What did you British do? Blow bubbles and hand out cotton candy?

  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub
    We are not talking about Crimea here.
    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub
    How do you know that? The video doesn't prove anything. There is no way of telling that those are locals. They could be Russian provocateurs just as easily. You are just drawing conclusions that you want to see.
    You're right - could be anything. Could be fucking rip van winkle for all we know. However, the fact that the "Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov" says that's what it is..kinda lends it a little weight (although if you're from the "all ruskies are evil lets kill them school of thought you most likely have less respect for the commenter).

    It's the point Bsnub. Even if this footage is irrelevant. Do you think it's right that the US is currently engaged in a hidden war in the Ukraine using mercenaries - or that it's been right the countless other times in the last century? Do you think it's right that your country takes what it wants - by force - at the expense of the financial stability, physical well being and quality of life for the poorest and most vulnerable corners of the planet where hopefully no one can witness the atrocity - by lying and manipulating the world?

  18. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub
    What did you British do? Blow bubbles and hand out cotton candy?
    The British joined the Bush/Cheyney/Rumsfeld war machine ONLY because we were fvcking lied and decieved by YOUR man (Tony Blair) in OUR government.

    I always have to spit on the floor when I speak that little satans name.

  19. #194
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers
    It is Russia that is using military force to rip Ukraine apart. And they are not stopping after Crimea.
    Sorry, no CNN, Fox news etc. here, no Utibe or twatter either.

    Sorry I can't confirm if they showed the same "shock and awe" live videos a la Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya or Syria. Were they firing anti aircraft guns and missiles into the night sky? Were there pictures of the Russian fleet firing cruise missiles into heavily populated civilian areas. Any white phosphorous shells being fired? Did they reduce the cities to rubble, knock out the power stations, water supply, the hospitals and schools? I have not seen the blackened bodies of women and children or the roads covered with shattered tanks trucks etc. Where are the joyous Crimeans waving flags to welcome the military columns? Where have the thousands of refugees been sent to? Any photographs of small girls running down the road on fire?

    I have read reports where the, local and authorised by treaty, Russian military surrounded Ukrainian army bases, asked if they wished to surrender, fight, join the Russian army or go home to the Ukraine. Some went home, no actual fighting except for an unknown sniper who allegedly killed one soldier from each side!

    Russian military forces used? Not much evidence at all. Russian military moved to it's side of the contiguous border but not across, yes? That's how a country defends itself idiot.

    No, a swiftly organised referendum, a near 90% vote, from all ethnic groups, for rejoining Russia. Legislation passed in the Crimean Parliament, legislation passed in the Russian Parliament, Seems very peaceful and intelligent.

    But hey I am not a USA, USA, gung ho American soldier, just taking orders, or a western citizen watching in awe at our wonderful military murdering and devastating yet another, mainly populated by brown skinned people, country being LIBERATED!
    Last edited by OhOh; 09-04-2014 at 01:09 PM.
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

  20. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    J
    However if anybody believes the world will be a better place if the USA lose the position of the no. 1 superpower to Russia or China he is seriously delusional.
    Sadly, I have to agree. A case of the best available crap. And for general - as opposed to regional - stability the world still needs a superpower. It is not yet at a point where it can keep stability without it. If it ever gets there, which I doubt.

    It is Russia that is using military force to rip Ukraine apart. And they are not stopping after Crimea.
    You seem like a thoughtful sort. Surely you can put yourself in Russia's position and understand the world from their perspective?

    'The West' didn't just sort of hang around Ukraine pre 'the troubles'. They were actively involved in dragging it westward, forcefully. Given Ukraine's geographical location, historical ties (however you may want to judge it) and population it was really a blatant provocation. A stupid and arrogant blatant provocation.

  21. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
    the fact that the "Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov" says that's what it is..kinda lends it a little weight (although if you're from the "all ruskies are evil lets kill them school of thought you most likely have less respect for the commenter).
    I would tend to think otherwise. While I do not think the Russians are all evil they are far from the saints you are making them out to be. Just look at the country it is ruled by Putin and his oligarchs and is overrun with organised crime and corruption. If you think that those factors alone are not proof enough that they cant be trusted then you are more naive then I thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
    The British joined the Bush/Cheyney/Rumsfeld war machine ONLY because we were fvcking lied and decieved by YOUR man (Tony Blair) in OUR government.
    Riiggghhtt. Another soap dodger who thinks British shit doesn't stink.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
    Do you think it's right that the US is currently engaged in a hidden war in the Ukraine using mercenaries
    I think it is highly unlikely that the US is using mercenaries in the Ukraine. I think it is a far more convenient cover story for the country that is (Russia).

    Watch this video series here. It is very telling the way it shows how dirty Russia can be;


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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post

    Watch this video series here. It is very telling the way it shows how dirty Russia can be;


    Awww, c'mon. Nobody can still be THAT naive in this day and age, surely. Except maybe the odd Jesus-eating Republican.

  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub
    Riiggghhtt. Another soap dodger who thinks British shit doesn't stink.
    You fail to remember the millions of Uk citizens, from toddlers to grannies who travelled the length of the UK to meet and march peaceably against any involvement in the upcoming war.

    They were hassled, kettled and treated like scum by the local paramilitary ( the UK armed police).

    Then totally ignored by the likes of Teflon Tony in a parliamentary vote to go to war by the scum politicians.

    When did the US citizens act in an equal way last, Vietnam?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFree
    Awww, c'mon. Nobody can still be THAT naive in this day and age, surely. Except maybe the odd Jesus-eating Republican.
    Whats your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh
    You fail to remember the millions of Uk citizens
    I fail to remember because there weren't millions.

    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh
    When did the US citizens act in an equal way last, Vietnam?
    The protest of the Vietnam war was massive and lasted for years. There was never anything close to it in UK. Not even close.

  25. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainfall
    There is no utopia such as described by you.
    I am not describing a utopia. I am describing the gradual slow evolutionary improvement that is taking place in small steps as the world learns to get along with itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabang
    It means 'Your' democracy, not Mine.
    Mature democracies usually require a level of social maturity and desire for fairness in the society in question. That is why democracy in Thailand and in medieval muslim countries does not work.

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