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  1. #151
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    What if they gather useful information that prevents a terrorist attack that saves lives. That is a good outcome. There are many protocols in place governing the methods and use of secretly gathered information. Are you not aware of the hoops that the government has to go through before a judge grants a permit for a wire-tap to snoop on a citizen? Don't you find it reassuring that the government's freedom in these matters is self-restricted in such ways?

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    Are you not aware of the hoops that the government has to go through before a judge grants a permit for a wire-tap to snoop on a citizen?


    Judges and wiretaps? Where have you been for the past 20 odd years?

  3. #153
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    McDonald's quits Crimea as fears of trade clash grow

    McDonald's Corporation has closed its restaurants in Crimea, prompting fears of a backlash as a prominent Moscow politician calls for all of the US fast food chain's outlets in Russia to be shut.

    Crimea's annexation by Russia, which Ukraine and the West do not acknowledge, has worried companies with assets in the Black Sea peninsula as it is unclear how the change may affect their business.
    McDonald's says the decision was strictly based on business and had "nothing to do with politics".

    Nevertheless, its move to temporarily close restaurants in Simferopol, Sevastopol and Yalta is likely to be seen as emblematic of the rift in Western-Russian relations, now at their lowest point since the end of the Cold War.

    "Like many other multi-national companies, McDonald's is currently evaluating potential business and regulatory implications which may result from the evolving situation in Crimea," McDonald's said in a statement. "Due to the suspension of necessary financial and banking services, we have no option but to close our three restaurants in Crimea."

    The Crimean outlets are not franchises, but owned and operated by McDonald's itself.

    The closures follow Geneva-based Deutsche Post's announcement that it was no longer accepting letters bound for Crimea as delivery to the region was no longer guaranteed.

    Economic relations between Russia and Ukraine have worsened since Russia annexed Crimea last month in response to the ouster of Russian-backed president Viktor Yanukovich after months of street protests in Kiev.
    Targeted sanctions imposed on a number of prominent Russians by the United States and the European Union have alarmed some foreign investors.

    Russia applies economic pressure


    Russia raised the price it charges Ukraine for gas on Thursday for the second time this week, almost doubling it in three days by cancelling previous discounts.

    While that may hurt Russian sellers, it piles pressure on Ukraine which is teetering on the brink of bankruptcy.

    Moscow has often used energy as a political weapon in dealing with its neighbours, and European customers are now concerned Russia might again cut off deliveries.

    The Ukrainian government said it was looking at alternatives including buying gas from western neighbours, an option that would mean reversing flows in transcontinental pipelines.

    Meanwhile, Russian riot police last month took control of a factory belonging to a Ukrainian confectionery magnate in the city of Lipetsk as part of an investigation into the company's affairs, the Ukrainian government said.
    Petro Poroshenko, a billionaire oligarch known as the "Chocolate King", is the front-runner in Ukraine's presidential election, which has been set for May 25.

    Ukraine this week temporarily banned seven Russian food companies from selling some of their products on Ukrainian territory.

    Calls for McDonald's to pull out of Russia


    McDonald's said it would help relocate staff to positions in mainland Ukraine, signalling it did not expect its Crimean businesses to reopen in the near future.

    The deputy speaker of Russian parliament, Vladimir Zhirinovsky, known for his anti-Western rhetoric, demanded that McDonald's pull its business out of Russia.

    "It would be good if they closed here too ... if they disappeared for good. Pepsi-Cola would be next," Russian media quoted Mr Zhirinovsky as saying.

    Mr Zhirinovsky, whose nationalist Liberal Democratic party largely backs president Vladimir Putin in parliament, said the party would organise pickets at McDonald's restaurants across the country.

    McDonald's, which operates more than 400 restaurants in Russia, was the first international fast food chain to tap the Russian market when it opened in Moscow's Pushkin Square before the collapse of the Soviet Union. That branch had the highest sales and served the most customers of any McDonald's outlet in 2012.

    A Russian backlash against McDonald's products would have a significant impact on company profits. McDonald's sees Russia as one of its top seven major markets outside the United States and Canada, according to its 2013 annual report.

    Russian moves to shun McDonald's could backfire, according to Russian newswire RBK, which says Russian companies supplying food to McDonald's would suffer as a result.

    McDonald's quits Crimea as fears of trade clash grow, politician urges fast food chain to shut all Russian outlets - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh
    Judges and wiretaps? Where have you been for the past 20 odd years?
    I don't think information gathered during anti-terrorist snooping is admissable in court for prosecution of citizens for other crimes. But in the end I think the public has to weigh the balance of benefits versus costs of information gathering by the government which may mean giving up some privacy in times of higher danger.

  4. #154
    Member Gilbert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    McDonald's Corporation has closed its restaurants in Crimea
    How will they survive without their daily dose of udder meat, soaked in formaldehyde or what ever they use these days to turn meat not suitable for rat food into a bigmac.

    Woe is them.

  5. #155
    A Cockless Wonder
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    The reason it is interesting is that no two nations that both have McDonald's have ever gone to war. It is known as the Golden Arches Theory of Conflict Prevention. There are few areas of the world where McDonalds has withdrawn from so this is new territory for the Golden Arches Theory.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilbert View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    McDonald's Corporation has closed its restaurants in Crimea
    How will they survive without their daily dose of udder meat, soaked in formaldehyde or what ever they use these days to turn meat not suitable for rat food into a bigmac.

    Woe is them.

    Not wrong mate. The misery caused by not being allowed to purchase overpriced unhealthy shit food must be killing them

  7. #157
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    I don't think information gathered during anti-terrorist snooping is admissable in court for prosecution of citizens for other crimes. But in the end I think the public has to weigh the balance of benefits versus costs of information gathering by the government which may mean giving up some privacy in times of higher danger.
    You should be aware, or not, that most governments "snoop" or as some "citizens" hold, illegally intercept, every piece of digital data transmitted.

    Most citizens were unaware of this but, with the information released by a US soldier, it became clear that the scope and amount of the "snooping" became public knowledge.

    But as you say all this is to help governments "fight terrorism". While at the same time they, the same governments, aid and abet "our terrorists" to wage war against democratically elected governments worldwide.

    Were "the public" asked if they wished their, here today gone tomorrow government, to act illegally on their behalf?
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

  8. #158
    A Cockless Wonder
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    I think this whole snooping thing is a bit of a beat-up. We live in the information age. It used to be hard to collect information. Now it is easy. Your ISP keeps records of every website you visit and they are a private organisation without the same levels of oversight that the government has. I was not really shocked by Snowden's 'revelations'. Everybody was aware that the government listened for terrorist 'chatter' on the wires and everybody joked about putting keywords like 'bomb', 'anthrax', 'hijack' in their emails to waste their time. How did everybody imagine the gov was doing this if not by snooping?

  9. #159
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    Your ISP keeps records of every website you visit and they are a private organisation without the same levels of oversight that the government has.
    The ISP's and software vendors know which side of their bread is buttered. If the were to refuse the "requests" they would be promptly taken out. Either individually murdered or their business ruined,

    The "elected" politicians ask their voters to "trust us we know what we are doing". Unfortunately they fail to justify to their voters the results of their "snooping", murder and terror. On many occasions where they do crack open their sealed door it is shown that they have in fact either lied or have taken actions which have made an irritation into a full blown lethal threat - to their voters. The recent disappearance of a fully loaded airplane, full of men, women and children was a result of their meddling.

    Even, allegedley, the CIA itself agrees with the blowback.

    When he talks of the "threat to U.S. persons both overseas as well as in the homeland" his audience is a US one, don't think the rest of the "Free World" intelligence agencies are in any way disagreeing with him. It is reassuring to hear that they "think" they have reduced the threat but are unable, or unwilling, to provide understandable evidence to their "trusting" voters.

    "And of course they assure us that it's all good, with the CIA's Director John Brennann providing a moment of unintentional hilarity with his apodictic certainty that drones are 'mitigating the threats to the homeland'.

    The intelligence community has shown little appetite for Schiff’s proposal, which he previewed in a Feb. 4 House Intelligence Committee hearing with CIA Director John Brennan and Director of National Intelligence James Clapper.

    [...]

    Rep. Jan Schakowsky, a Democrat on the committee, asked Brennan whether signature strikes might be motivating people to join extremists groups, effectively increasing the threat of attacks on the United States.

    “From an intelligence community perspective, we're always evaluating and analyzing developments overseas to include any counter-terrorism activity that we might be involved in to see what the impact is,” Brennan replied. "And I think the feeling is that the counter terrorism activities that we have engaged in with our partners — we the U.S. government broadly, both from an intelligence perspective as well as from a military perspective — have greatly mitigated the threat to U.S. persons both overseas as well as in the homeland.”





    Last edited by OhOh; 06-04-2014 at 10:52 AM.

  10. #160
    Member Gilbert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    The reason it is interesting is that no two nations that both have McDonald's have ever gone to war. It is known as the Golden Arches Theory of Conflict Prevention. There are few areas of the world where McDonalds has withdrawn from so this is new territory for the Golden Arches Theory.
    The irony not lost on you then that where the US mega business war machine is not prevalent in the form of their market domination, the yanks invade them and enforce regime change on them?

  11. #161
    A Cockless Wonder
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    ^^What is the solution to this problem?

    Currently the US and other governments engage in snooping because it gives them an advantage in dealing with adversaries engaged in terrorist activities.

    The downside is that private citizens may feel at times that their privacy is infringed upon.

    Should the government stop all snooping and just let the terrorists get on with it and then say 'sorry folks but at least you have your privacy'.


    ^McDonalds opened a branch in Moscow before the collapse of the Soviet Union. That branch is now the biggest McDonalds, in terms of turnover, anywhere in the world. Not an act of war but popular demand.

  12. #162
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    Currently the US and other governments engage in snooping because it gives them an advantage in dealing with adversaries engaged in terrorist activities.
    No countries spy agency will allow public scrutiny, even in a redacted form, of the alleged success/advantage gained. What they are doing is alienating vast swathes of the global population, creating more widows, creating more people who actively join anti government organisations......

    In short making the lives of their voters less secure and dangerous. But hey as some people have said these politicians continue to be elected by the sheep.

    What they are also doing is backing/funding/arming/directing the sometimes terrorist and sometimes freedom fighters against the global population.



    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    Should the government stop all snooping and just let the terrorists get on with it and then say 'sorry folks but at least you have your privacy'.
    Maybe the combined political leaders should declare the war on terrorism is won. They are alleged to be so, so effective. Stop funding their own terrorists and decimate their spys, armed forces, secret armies and close down their overseas bases.

    Maybe they should stop invading countries around the world based on inaccurate intelligence, gained from "snooping".

    Maybe they should stop using their big guns and stop threatening countries and people that they have no right to terrorise. They are very good at killing brown people going to a wedding but when it is tried on an equally well armed nation, to get back to the Putin thread, suddenly red lines are drawn which are quickly erased. New red lines are announced which are quickly superseded. Threats of "consequences" are announced to the eager government MSM. The sheep are led to the front line, abused and then eaten when no longer useful.

  13. #163
    A Cockless Wonder
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    Snooping is so easy now in the information age that it is almost inevitable that governments will snoop.

    What seems to annoy other nations most is that the USA is better at it than they are.

    When snooping is uncovered it always creates a diplomatic row but it doesn't stop the snooping.

    At the end of the day I don't believe that USA or the West in general has a malevolent agenda WRT the rest of the world so it does not worry me too much that they are also the best at snooping.

    Also Islamic terrorism, like all brands of terrorism, has numbered days and will ultimately fade out.

    The west's social and political model sets an example based on capitalist free trade within a socially responsible framework, transparent democracy and freedom of thought and expression which, I think, the rest of the world envies and will ultimately emulate.

  14. #164
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    and like clockwork, and as I predicted

    BBC News - Ukraine rejects Russia Gazprom gas price hike

    His energy minister said Ukraine would try to negotiate a gas deal, but warned that if talks failed Ukrainians should prepare for Russia to cut off supplies.

    Moscow says the price change is due to Kiev's failure to pay its bills.

    Russia's state-controlled company Gazprom has raised the cost of gas to Ukraine by 81% to $485.50 (£292.86, 354.33 euros) from $268.50 for 1,000 cubic metres.

    The increase comes amid tense diplomatic relations following Moscow's annexation of the Crimean peninsula.

  15. #165
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    "We are not trying to break our contract but to set up a fair price," he said, adding that that Ukrainians should prepare for the possibility of supplies to be cut off.
    planning for the fascists in Ukraine is not their strong

  16. #166
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    Time for Ukrainians to start investing in energy efficient tools such as better insulation and double-glazed windows.

    You'd think Ukraine would have got its act together after so many gas disputes with Russia (1990s, 2005-2006, 2007-2008 and 2008-2009).
    Last edited by Neverna; 07-04-2014 at 04:31 AM.

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post

    The west's social and political model sets an example based on capitalist free trade within a socially responsible framework, transparent democracy and freedom of thought and expression which, I think, the rest of the world envies and will ultimately emulate.
    If you can remove the complete illusion and such was practiced.

  18. #168
    A Cockless Wonder
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    ^^Maybe the background radiation has fallen enough at Chernobyl to allow a salvage assessment!

    ^sorry RS, can you run that by me one more time?

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    ^^Maybe the background radiation has fallen enough at Chernobyl to allow a salvage assessment!




    Anyway - snooping. A very good example of the continued lies from the owners of the world. We all know that they snoop 100% of the time on 100% of what everyone does. They pretend its about "security of the country" when in reality its about security of their own position.

    Now they and their supporters fart out "nothing to hide, so what's the problem"? Well there are quite a few victims of US extraordinary rendition who might argue with that - mistaken identity and off they go for a whirlwind tour around the torture hotspots of the world.

    Did you spot how the CIA created a Twitter for Cuba?

  20. #170
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    One way to make Putin reconsider I suppose. The "good terrorists", armed, directed and fed by the western politicians, now being utilised in Syria are probably already installed.


  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilbert
    We all know that they snoop 100% of the time on 100% of what everyone does. They pretend its about "security of the country" when in reality its about security of their own position.
    I think snooping is primarily about getting information that helps the government stop activities that put citizens at risk.

    Since the government is democratically elected and changes every couple of terms it is difficult to see how snooping is primarily about keeping hold of power. If it is then they are not doing very well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilbert
    Did you spot how the CIA created a Twitter for Cuba?
    Information gathering is an activity that can yield benefits in understanding how people think. Many organisations do it. Marketing people keep track of the websites you visit so they can sell you things. It might be annoying at times but I don't see it as malevolent.

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    I think snooping is primarily about getting information that helps the government stop activities that put citizens at risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    Since the government is democratically elected


    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    changes every couple of terms it is difficult to see how snooping is primarily about keeping hold of power
    ahhh but they don't. The faces at the front might change, but the people behind the scenes do not. Politicians are there to give you an idea of choice, the sense of being able to make a different and an election every handful of years to add to the illusion. However, you have no choice. You get to tick a box of a few hand picked candidates by a very small amount of people. It's a big club, pal, and you and me are not in it (GC paraphrase).


    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    It might be annoying at times but I don't see it as malevolent.
    you do not see it as questionable that a foreign government set up a twitter for Cuba, cloaked it as the real thing, just to spy on a whole population?

    Cut down on the coolaid


  23. #173
    A Cockless Wonder
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    Yes there is machinery of the state that stays in place while parties in power change but the machinery is accountable to the government and the government is usually the most powerful organisation in any country.

    I don't think mature democracy in its western form is an elaborate illusion orchestrated by a secret puppet-master organisation.

    I think the desire to believe such things is similar to a desire to read Robert Ludlum novels.

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    I don't think mature democracy in its western form is an elaborate illusion orchestrated by a secret puppet-master organisation.
    Must be some pretty strong wacky backy you smoke then, bud, if you fall for all the stuff that happens around the world as being a coincidence then.

    Do you not find it strange that, as you call it, the
    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    Robert Ludlum novels.
    readers can often predict what is going to happen before it does? Such as IMF storming into the rubble that was the Ukraine economy, enforcing legislative changes in exchange for the huge debt that Ukraine don't really need but is also having pushed upon them?

    Notice how Venezuela is on the hush hush but in reality is a much bigger upset than Ukraine? Here's another prediction for you - El Salvadore will be the next one to go boom.

    Syria - oh that long forgotten war that was wanted by all the politicians but none of the people of the world - well the war will happen there and US and UK troops will go spilling in there sooner or later.

    israel will continue pretending to take part in peace treaties whilst at the same time grabbing more and more Palestinian land.

    All part of a big plan that never deviates, as written down by loads of people over the last 40+ years. Its all there in black and white and pretty much you can tick off each catastrophic event against the people of the world like a train spotter standing at clapham Common. Either the people predicting these events are lucky beyond belief, or else they are exposing the system which has been the same system people have been fighting for years and years - but alas, as that system owns the media that most people watch and take a the truth, it is a never ending battle. Just as one person see the truth, another 10 start watching bbc, cnn etc and the lies lies and damned lies take grip on another handful of people.

  25. #175
    A Cockless Wonder
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    What are the long term aims of this organisation. I asked previously but I think the only answer was a 'New World Order'. What would be the features of this new world order?

    It takes many decades to develop a mature democracy. When did this secret organisation begin? It seems that democratic government would be a major inconvenience to them and that they would have been better to strangle democracy at birth and control everything through a dictatorship.

    Is the government aware of the organisation or is the government controlled in such a subtle way that they are not even aware that they are being controlled?

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