Thread: How dangerous is Vladimir Putin?

Putin is owning Kerry and Obama,

Kerry is a fool and Obama lives in a bubble, Putin is a real man and a real gay male icon

Originally Posted by Gilbert

Funny thing about intel. It is information pumped out by, well, the worlds biggest collection of liars (the intelligence community), fed through the PR machines of political parties, and handed to the public through a press and media that just take the governments press release, add a few pictures and Big Font words, all neatly bundled for the people to swallow. About as reliable as a bar girl - you know they are lying their arse off, but for some reason people like to believe that this time she is telling the truth.

Just so I can get up to speed, how does this actually work?

Are the intelligence gathering agencies rogue and out of government control? So do they have a private agenda of deliberate misinformation which the governments are naive about or does the misinformation come about accidentally due to unreliable gathering procedures or has the government specifically requested to be misinformed in order to cover their own backs when they act in error?

Is it just the US intel that is a affected or all intel gathering organisations or maybe just western democratic governments?

Does the problem affect private and government owned intel gathering organisations or just government?

It sounds serious. What can be the solution to this problem?

Originally Posted by Looper

intelligence gathering agencies rogue and out of government control?

The government is owned by big business and told what to do,. Therefore, agencies do what they are told as well. One in the same. Corrupt, and sold out to big business and those that own big business. Same all around the world.

There are many big businesses so do they collude in private meetings about how to manipulate the government or do they each act alone? Is there an annual turnover thresh-hold which qualifies you to apply for membership of this elite organisation?

Go do some research that does not include CNN or the BCC, Looper. As a starter for 10, think about lobbyists, party and personal donations, think about other legal graft and corruption.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Putin is owning Kerry and Obama,

Kerry is a fool and Obama lives in a bubble, Putin is a real man and a real gay male icon

Never saw him as gay, but now I can see him as just that.

Originally Posted by Looper

Originally Posted by Gilbert

Funny thing about intel. It is information pumped out by, well, the worlds biggest collection of liars (the intelligence community), fed through the PR machines of political parties, and handed to the public through a press and media that just take the governments press release, add a few pictures and Big Font words, all neatly bundled for the people to swallow. About as reliable as a bar girl - you know they are lying their arse off, but for some reason people like to believe that this time she is telling the truth.

Just so I can get up to speed, how does this actually work?

Are the intelligence gathering agencies rogue and out of government control? So do they have a private agenda of deliberate misinformation which the governments are naive about or does the misinformation come about accidentally due to unreliable gathering procedures or has the government specifically requested to be misinformed in order to cover their own backs when they act in error?

Is it just the US intel that is a affected or all intel gathering organisations or maybe just western democratic governments?

Does the problem affect private and government owned intel gathering organisations or just government?

It sounds serious. What can be the solution to this problem?

Might sound naive, but whilst agreeing with your view that the Western intel services seem to be going rogue with mis- and disinformation, my guess is it's by design of their respective governments that no longer trust the people, to some extent are afraid of them, and would rather pump them with whatever the oligarchs deem most comfortable.

Originally Posted by Gilbert

As a starter for 10, think about lobbyists, party and personal donations, think about other legal graft and corruption.

Lobbying a government is not corrupt. Big business has a lot of power but they each act for their own interests which is to build wealth. The government acts for the benefit of the state and its subjects. It controls all legitimised violence. Army, police, prisons the law so they are also quite powerful.

Originally Posted by leemo

Never saw him as gay, but now I can see him as just that.

Macho posturing has been 'gay' since the village people put on a police uniform!

Originally Posted by leemo

my guess is it's by design of their respective governments that no longer trust the people, to some extent are afraid of them, and would rather pump them with whatever the oligarchs deem most comfortable.

I do not follow this Leemo. Why is the government afraid of the people? Which government are we talking about?

Originally Posted by Looper

The government acts for the benefit of the state and its subjects.

Really? You seriously believe that? The Government of the UK wanted / was desperate to go to war in Syria. Was that for the good of the people?

This is surreal - you actually believe that government and all the Sir Humphies in the shadows do anything for the good of the people? You think politicians are selfless kind souls, and it is only an accident that they rape and pillage expenses, take bungs left right and centre, front Pedofile groups, cover up child rape and murder, fudge me the list goes on and on so much that you couldn't make it up if you tried. If you wrote a movie with the types of activity that these Governments get up to, no one would believe it!

Look at oboma with the rhetoric about gmos whilst at the same time appoints Monsantos people as his closest advisors and allows EVERY law that might stop gmos, which most people in the world do not want, by the way, he lets them go. His work in Africa is all funded and a gateway for monsanto. He's doing it for the good of the people?????


Pull the other one.
Federal reserve - a private bank that basically has been set up to f#$k the world. No other word for it, to f#$k over the world. World bank. Same. World Trade organisation - Same. The list goes on and on and on and yet people such as you Looper sit there and defend these pricks oblivious to the fact that you, along with everyone else, is getting raped by these bastards every single day. Your parents were raped by them every single day. Your children will be raped by them every single day and in so many way, not least in that every single dollar / pound these people create with their banking scams devalues the dollar in your pocket. Remember when you could buy a can of pop and a mars bar for 10p? Even I do! Over a quid now I bet, and this is them, leeching money away from us all. Its not that long ago in Thailand that 25 setang could buy you something - no chance now!

Wake up pal -- wake up.

What is the ultimate motivation here? If you don't think governments are acting in the best interests of the nation and its subjects who are they acting for?

'Big business' is a bit vague. Are you saying that leaders of certain businesses act together in a secret organisation with a secret agenda? What is their ultimate goal in the Machiavellian scheme?

Why do they allow transparent democratic processes to work? It would be much easier to pursue an evil agenda if the government was subverted as an autocracy or dictatorship.

Originally Posted by Looper

What is the ultimate motivation here? If you don't think governments are acting in the best interests of the nation and its subjects who are they acting for?

'Big business' is a bit vague. Are you saying that leaders of certain businesses act together in a secret organisation with a secret agenda? What is their ultimate goal in the Machiavellian scheme?

Why do they allow transparent democratic processes to work? It would be much easier to pursue anevil agenda if the government was subverted as an autocracy or dictatorship.

Not leaders. Owners. The people that own the world. The people that own you. The people that own all the land, all the oil and gas, the people that make up the education, the people own all the media. The people that own all the politicians. The people that own all the banks. The people who own everything.

Go and investigate the real wealth in the world. Go and investigate the real money families that are usually not mentioned in the Forbes Rich lists.

Originally Posted by Gilbert

Originally Posted by Looper

What is the ultimate motivation here? If you don't think governments are acting in the best interests of the nation and its subjects who are they acting for?

'Big business' is a bit vague. Are you saying that leaders of certain businesses act together in a secret organisation with a secret agenda? What is their ultimate goal in the Machiavellian scheme?

Why do they allow transparent democratic processes to work? It would be much easier to pursue anevil agenda if the government was subverted as an autocracy or dictatorship.

Not leaders. Owners. The people that own the world. The people that own you. The people that own all the land, all the oil and gas, the people that make up the education, the people own all the media. The people that own all the politicians. The people that own all the banks. The people who own everything.

Go and investigate the real wealth in the world. Go and investigate the real money families that are usually not mentioned in the Forbes Rich lists.

So are you going to spend the rest of your life studying, and worrying about these people who you say own you, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Do they have you so tied up you can not have a life, why can't you get over your paranioa and get on with life, there is a good life still to be had. I know I have one.

It would be nice of we could share all the oil and gas and land and banks equally between everybody but communism just doesn't seem to work.

At least you are relatively free to pursue a life/career/education, enjoy the safety of living in an organised society where you are relatively free from violence and exploitation and free to say what you like within reason and travel pretty much anywhere.

I guess it is a glass is half full/empty situation.

Originally Posted by RPETER65

So are you going to spend the rest of your life studying, and worrying about these people who you say own you, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Do they have you so tied up you can not have a life, why can't you get over your paranioa and get on with life, there is a good life still to be had. I know I have one.

You've obviously accepted you're on the home stretch and wish to bury your head in the sand and find peace and nice times in your final chapter. Fair enough and good luck.

Lot of us younger people with young kids are ready to fight these fvckers when the time comes.

"Nothing you can do about it"

??
Tell that to Goliath.

Humans are evolved to be sceptical and distrustful of other humans up to a point to avoid being taken advantage of by cheaters in a group, but in order to live in communal hunter/gatherer groups we are also evolved to be largely trusting and cooperative. We are also not evolved to live in large organised societies which is an artificial construct which we have to learn about as we grow up.

I think this notion that there are malevolent and Machiavellian unseen forces at work at high levels in societies that are in fact largely transparent and democratic is some kind of crossover wiring in the brain from our naturally evolved scepticism and the fact that modern society is an unnaturally complex environment which we as individual subjects cannot understand completely in the same way that we could understand the social mechanics of a hunter/gatherer group.

It's all about acceptable risk between competitive business environments flourishing and crossing the very thin line to huge amounts of people suffering.

Originally Posted by Looper

Originally Posted by leemo

my guess is it's by design of their respective governments that no longer trust the people, to some extent are afraid of them, and would rather pump them with whatever the oligarchs deem most comfortable.

I do not follow this Leemo. Why is the government afraid of the people? Which government are we talking about?

In a couple of paras, Western governments.

I believe they are becoming less trustful of the people, and their attraction to paramilitary defences against civil unrest, for which they are well equipped in terms of manpower, hardware, resources and legislation, makes them rightfully less trusted by the people. Why? Because we vote for them but tend to know that our best leaders are at best the best of the worst.

Also, imho, Western liberal democracy is not working, needs to be but won't be revamped to cope with the slow but insidious shocks to a fraying system (that would be an admission no politician is prepared to make), and is heading for (or debatably being steered towards) dramatic upheaval. Better to keep the people distracted by who's wearing what or slept with whom.

Nothing will happen tomorrow or even next month, and the buses will probably run on time well into the next decade, but it's a gradual process that becomes increasingly difficult to correct as it gathers momentum.

What we have in common with every extinct major civilisation, is the belief that we are too big to fail.

Originally Posted by leemo

the slow but insidious shocks to a fraying system

This is a delusion. Humans are psychologically wired to see society as fraying and falling apart based on the popularity of news reports covering murders and violence.

The fact is that the age we live in now is the least violent age that humans have ever lived in. See Rainfall's graph of falling murder rate? You can see the same graph from almost every democratic country in the world and the murder rate is a good indicator for all other kinds of violence and unrest.

Don't worry. Be happy.

Originally Posted by leemo

the more successful you become the easier it will be for your grandkids to be seduced by the same folly of your parents, which started the cycle.

Good insight. It takes discipline.

You know what, I often think that the official secrets act and the variations around the world are the biggest tell that something not quite right is occurring. Usually these are things that people "in power" have done or asked officials / bodies to do that are so heinous, so against what is actually right, so damaging to them that ultimately they never want the people of the country to find out. Why? It's our bloody country! These bastards work for us. They are supposed to represent us, and yet they do such bad things that they have a law to cover them up for up to 100 years! And then extended!

Outrageous.

Originally Posted by Gilbert

I often think that the official secrets act and the variations around the world are the biggest tell that something not quite right is occurring

Do you think everything should be in the public domain?

When Alan Turing was at work cracking the enigma code to stop the Nazi u-boats should news of his daily progress have been published in the paper each day?

And by extension all classified information on modern-day terrorist threats should be public?

How about design digrams, embedded software and schematics for all the defence departments weaponry?

Originally Posted by Looper

When Alan Turing was at work cracking the enigma code to stop the Nazi u-boats should news of his daily progress have been published in the paper each day?

Daft example. However, I don't think that 2 minutes after the war was over this should have been kept secret. I don't think that, for example, the mass communication gathering against the public should have been covered. I don't think that bliar and bush should be able to hide behind it in relation to their discussion about cooking up the 2nd iraq war, invading Afghanistan to secure opium production. I don't think that all the shit around the JFK murder should be kept secret from the US public for 100 years!

There are times and places for secrecy. I would guess that the vast majority of things covered by it and only still a secret because it would damage the reputation or jail some big wig.

The secrets act allow government departments, mostly in the spying and enforcement arena, to do what ever they like with complete impunity. This is a bad state of affairs.