Thread: How dangerous is Vladimir Putin?

There is no line.

The acceptability of behaviour is something that evolves slowly over time. It is shaped by global conflict events and the lessons we learn about how to deal with them and how to avoid them in future.

National boundaries are now sacrosanct.

You cannot grab land from other countries just because you are in a bad mood about losing a tactical battle in the field of international politics.

Originally Posted by Takeovers

Originally Posted by Neverna

Originally Posted by Looper

Do you not know that the acceptability of behaviour changes with time?

You are right, Looper, but the problem is that certain countries like to tell others what the latest acceptable 'fashion' is, and they expect other countries to simply submit to their "enlightened wisdom". It's somewhat arrogant, and presumably done on purpose in order to make sure what they do is not only deemed acceptable, but also considered the morally "correct" path. They want global hegemony of what is deemed acceptable. They try to enforce their views and values on the world using any means possible.

Speaking in general you are not wrong. But let's get specific. Do you see Russia invading a neighbouring country and taking large parts of it away or destroying it as something acceptable today?

Are you saying that Russia has invaded a neighbouring country and taken large parts of it away and/or destroyed it? Or is you question just a hypothetical one?

And never forget the old adage about arguing with idiots...

Originally Posted by Looper

National boundaries are now sacrosanct.

No they are not, Looper.

I refer you to post #955

Originally Posted by Neverna

Are you saying that Russia has invaded a neighbouring country and taken large parts of it away and/or destroyed it? Or is you question just a hypothetical one?

I am not hypothetical. My post was very clear. It is specific.

I don't need to say that Russia has invaded a neighbouring country. Vladimir Putin himself has said so. The destruction is obvious.

Still on about Crimea? Yawwn- it's done and dusted. Considering that Ukraine is in economic freefall, and it's eastern provinces in a civil war, Crimea looks like the land of milk and honey in comparison. The Crimean people (overwhelmingky Russian) & Parliament did the right thing, as did Russia.

Originally Posted by Looper

National boundaries are now sacrosanct.

Yugoslavia, Sudan, Libya, Iraq, Syria..................?

Originally Posted by Takeovers

I don't need to say that Russia has invaded a neighbouring country. Vladimir Putin himself has said so

A source would be good.

Originally Posted by OhOh

A source would be good.

The evidence is all around you but you choose not to see it. You have made your mind up and will stick to your narrative and continue to post nonsense from RT and ITAR-TASS. Once more just a small sample;

Photos Prove Russian Weapons Deployed in Eastern Ukraine, US Says - ABC News

Video Proof Of Russian Military In Ukraine Emerges - Forbes

Satellite Images Prove Russian Forces Crossed The Border To Attack Ukraine At Ilovaisk | The Interpreter

Ukraine displays weapons that 'prove direct Russian involvement in the fighting'

I could go on and on and on.

You can lead a horse to water but you cant make them drink.

At an end-of-the-year news conference, Russian President Vladimir Putin stuck to his story that violence in Ukraine is the result of indigenous resistance with which Russia has no official involvement.
The Kremlin is sticking to that story as tensions in the region rise again, and an unknown number of U.S. troops prepare to deploy to train Ukraine's national guard. But Putin has failed to explain why Moscow is holding Ukrainian prisoners of war.
Russia currently detains 31 Ukrainian servicemembers in the same Moscow prison where the government jailed members of the punk rock band Pussy Riot, according to Moscow lawyer Mark Feygin. He represents Nadiya Savchenko, who was captured in eastern Ukraine last summer.
Iraq War veteran
Savchenko served in Iraq as part of the international coalition, and later became the first female pilot in the Ukrainian armed forces. She was on a rescue mission near Luhansk when her party was ambushed by pro-Russian separatists June 18. Two days later, she was handed over to Russian intelligence officers inside Ukraine, who transferred her across the border with a sack over her head.
Moscow disputes this version of events, initially claiming that Savchenko voluntarily crossed the Ukrainian-Russian border to ask for asylum.
However, a YouTube video (see below) came to light showing Savchenko, in uniform, being interrogated by her captors inside Ukraine while handcuffed to a pipe. It was not exactly the image of someone fleeing persecution.
Details such as Savchenko being in uniform have critical legal gravity. Under the Geneva Conventions, POWs are defined as "members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power." The convention applies to any case of armed conflict between two signatory states "even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them." Thus, the fact of Savchenko being taken prisoner on active duty and winding up in a Russian jail establishes Moscow as being a party to the war, regardless of what Putin says.
Shifty story
Russia has denied Savchenko, now more than 40 days into a hunger strike, and the other detainees POW status because it would fatally compromise Putin's official story. Instead, the Kremlin has concocted a variety of criminal charges.
Savchenko's legal status underwent a bizarre evolution, from being an asylum seeker, to being questioned as a witness in a criminal case against Ukrainian officials, to "accidental detention" at a Russian hotel as a suspect. She was finally charged with directing mortar fire that resulted in the deaths of two Russian journalists, Igor Kornelyuk and Anton Voloshin, who were reporting on the fighting from inside Ukraine.
There are gaping holes in Russia's case, such as why Moscow has jurisdiction over an event in Ukraine, or what crime is committed when combat journalists are tragically caught in the crossfire of battle, or why Savchenko, a serving member of the armed forces, was culpable even if she were directing mortar fire.
Telephone records show the journalists were still alive even after Savchenko was in custody. Perhaps this will force her legal status to "evolve" once again.
Savchenko's lawyers are seeking recognition of her POW status from foreign powers and international organizations. The affair shines a light on the complexities of contemporary proxy wars, where countries use third parties to pursue their aggressive, expansionist aims while claiming to stay within the bounds of international law. There is no good rationale for the international community to deny Savchenko recognition as a POW for one simple fact: That's what she is.


Link

youtube.com/watch?v=2SnTu9RW_Uw

Originally Posted by Neverna

No they are not, Looper.

Originally Posted by OhOh

Yugoslavia, Sudan, Libya, Iraq, Syria..................?

Which of those countries' borders has been changed by having land stolen? (Yugoslavia was broken up and new borders created following an internal ethnic war) You cannot invade and take land from countries in the 21st century. The only developed country to have broken this rule is Russia. It is a major step back in the development of rules of engagement for the globe.

Originally Posted by sabang

Still on about Crimea? Yawwn- it's done and dusted. Considering that Ukraine is in economic freefall, and it's eastern provinces in a civil war, Crimea looks like the land of milk and honey in comparison. The Crimean people (overwhelmingky Russian) & Parliament did the right thing, as did Russia.

Is your brain really so addled as to see the myopic shortsightedness of this argument? Russia has caused the disaster in Ukraine. Land has been stolen by a foreign nation. 6000 people are dead in fighting for control of more. This is all down to Russian sponsored foreign aggression. You think this is all OK because you don't like the USA. Pathetic.

It is embarrassing watching the fine tradition of rational argument falling into decay as the Putin apologists insist on trying not to to see the elephant in the room:-

Russia took land from another country by force. This is the 21st century. Wake up.

Originally Posted by OhOh

Your "evidence" posted does not cover the post of Loopers, the "evidence" you posted has been ridiculed since the "evidence" was published by unscrupulous "news" outlets with no facts or figures.

Ridiculed by whom? Russian state media? You only acknowledge a source if it fits your narrative otherwise it is "unscrupulous".

Your naivety is painfully obvious as you continue to deny reality. Anyone with two eyes and a brain can deduce from the countless thousands of hours of video footage of battle in Donetsk that at the very least Russia is providing tanks, apcs, ammunition and artillery to the rebels.

Secondly it is clear you have no understanding of warfare or military experience either because if you did you would understand that a ragtag rebel group could never mount an offensive requiring sophisticated command and control to accomplish as recently occurred in Debaltseve. It required equipment and coordination that only a nation state like Russia possess.

Originally Posted by OhOh

A horse or a sheep which is it to be?

Take your pick.

Originally Posted by OhOh

Do you have any comment on my reply to the previous sentence in Loopers post, regarding sacrosanct boundaries, or is your silence an expression of agreement by you?

You call that a reply?

Originally Posted by Ozcol

Apparently Putin is not too dangerous , I just read a news article he is presumed dead because he has not been seen for 8 days and the social media are having a free for all.

He is either in Switzerland with his wife who apparently is in the process of giving birth. Or he's there for another facelift.

Has anybody searched the local golf courses, most World leaders are on them at sometime in the morning/afternoon/evening, I am told.

One of the Creditors to Greeks trillions of Euros has suggested that the Greek government should stop paying Government salaries and pensions for a month or two.

http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/201...king+Greece%29

A good idea for the IMF to demand of the Ukrainian Government or just the thing to ensure an enhanced civil war?.

Originally Posted by sabang

Sacrosanct- such sanctimony. How 'sacrosanct' have European borders been in the last century, lemme see- WW1, WW2, The dissolution of the USSR, the disintegration of former Yugoslavia.

You are going back 70 and a hundred years for 2 of these examples. The world has moved on. Give me an example in the last 25 years where a large developed country has taken a chunk of land off a smaller neighbour against the will of that smaller neighbour?

A simple scenario that used to be common but does not happen anymore since the world has become more civilised.

Dissolution of the USSR was actioned by the Russia the original controller of the land. Not relevant.

Originally Posted by OhOh

Originally Posted by Looper

new borders created following an internal ethnic war)

Is that your argument in response?

So give me your take on the break up of Yugoslavia.

Originally Posted by sabang

Nothing to do with the illegal and unConstituional coup then? Had there been no putsch, it is unlikely a Refendum would have been called for Crimea to secede, and there would be no civil war in the secessionist east. Ukraine would have a diplomatically & legally recognisable government. Neither would the economy of Ukraine be in the tatters it is now, which hardly assists 'national solidarity'.

The Ukrainian people by majority wanted to move economically towards Europe and not Russia (as most of these east European nations do). Russia can't take this so spits the dummy and breaks the rules and grabs bits of land off Ukraine illegally and then starts a war of attrition killing thousands to grab more land. If eastern Ukraine was not happy with the move towards Europe then it should have entered negotiations to secede and sought a legal referendum to move the border.

Originally Posted by OhOh

Originally Posted by Ozcol

Apparently Putin is not too dangerous , I just read a news article he is presumed dead because he has not been seen for 8 days and the social media are having a free for all.

He is either in Switzerland with his wife who apparently is in the process of giving birth. Or he's there for another facelift.

Has anybody searched the local golf courses, most World leaders are on them at sometime in the morning/afternoon/evening, I am told.

If any of these are the case why is the Kremlin being so tight lipped?

My GF used to go to Yalta in the Crimea with her grandmother for holidays.

Maybe check the hotels down there as it is a nice spot apparently.

How dangerous is... 14-03-2015 06:46 AM Neo you're an idiot...

Oh dear I appear to have lost this debate to Neo's superior skills of disputation and reasoned argumentation - you're an idiot -

Originally Posted by Looper

The Ukrainian people by majority wanted to move economically towards Europe and not Russia

How do you know that? A democratically elected government was overthrown by coup. The democratically elected government was more 'Russia friendly', although that isn't to say it did not have cordial relations with the west/ EU. Now, post coup, Ukraine is in tatters- Crimea has seceded, the east is in civil revolt and wishes to recombine with Russia, the economy has collapsed, and the Poroshenko 'governments' days look numbered. It looks every inch a failed state, as a direct result of the coup. So where is the evidence to suggest most Ukrainian people want to move economically towards Europe- and for that matter, why should that require an illegal coup to achieve? As is well known and hardly surprising, the mainly Russian east of the country is more eastward looking, the mainly Ukrainian west more westward looking. I really don't know who is in the majority, but I know the best way to find out- by election, not coup.

They are not mutually exclusive you know- Ukraine can trade with and receive investment from both the west and Russia. Or China and Japan, for that matter. The coup has only acted to split the country apart.